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Isink A Lot

Question raised in the 1st rate problem again thread

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In the post http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12817-1st-rates-problem-again/?p=234617 TsunamiEmperor brought up an interesting point I would like to find more data on. Historically what was the make up of most fleets in the big battles that took place? I know there are many history buffs here so I thought we could put some info together for battles that took place and their fleet make ups. However since each Country had its own rating system and to make things more "apples to apples" as the saying goes, we should use gun count which we can relate to our in game rating system.

 

In game rating system is:

1st = 100+ guns

2nd = 80 - 98 guns

3rd = 60 - 78 guns

4th = 52 - 58 guns (Trinc should be reclassified as a 4th rate?)

5th = 26 - 50 guns (if above is done change to 26- 48)

6th = 16 - 22 guns

7th = 0 -12 guns

 

use the following format:

 

Battle of Cape St Vincent (1797)

 

British Fleet = 22 ships

1st = 2 or 9%

2nd = 4 or 18%

3rd = 9 or 41%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 4 or 18%

6th = 2 or 9%

7th = 1 or 5%

 

Spanish Fleet = 36 ships

1st = 7 or 20%

2nd = 1 or 3%

3rd = 16 or 45%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 8 or 22%

6th = 3 or 8%

7th = 1 or 3%

 

 

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Order of battle at the Battle of the Nile 1798

 

British Fleet = 15 ships

1st = 0 or 0%

2nd = 0 or 0%

3rd = 13 or 87%

4th = 1 or 7%

5th = 0 or 0%

6th = 1 or 7%

7th = 0 or 0%

 

French Fleet = 17 ships

1st = 1 or 6%

2nd = 3 or 18%

3rd = 9 or 53%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 4 or 23%

6th = 0 or 0%

7th = 0 or 0%

Edited by Isink A Lot

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Battle of Copenhagen (1807)

 

British Fleet = 31 ships

1st = 0 or 0%

2nd = 1 or 3%

3rd = 24 or 77%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 5 or 16%

6th = 1 or 3%

7th = 0 or 0%

 

Danish Fleet = 43 ships

1st = 0 or 0%

2nd = 3 or 7%

3rd = 15 or 35%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 9 or 21%

6th = 14 or 33%

7th = 2 or 5%

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Third Battle of Ushant 1st June 1794

 

 

British Fleet = 38 ships

1st = 3 or 8%

2nd = 6 or 16%

3rd = 16 or 42%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 7 or 18%

6th = 2 or 5%

7th = 4 or 11%

 

French Fleet = 33 ships

1st = 3 or 9%

2nd = 4 or 12%

3rd = 19 or 58%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 5 or 15%

6th = 1 or 3%

7th = 1 or 3%

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Bridport's Action 23rd June 1795

 

British Fleet = 25 ships

1st = 2 or 8%

2nd = 7 or 28%

3rd = 5 or 20%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 5 or 20%

6th = 2 or 8%

7th = 4 or 16%

 

French Fleet = 12 ships

1st = 1 or 8%

2nd = 0 or 0%

3rd = 11 or 92%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 0 or 0%

6th = 0 or 0%

7th = 0 or 0%

Edited by Isink A Lot

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Threedecks has a pretty great collection of ship-related information. 

 

I don't know how close to complete it is, but they list the following number of ships already in existance and still in active service on 1680/1/1, and ships launched from 1680-1830:

 

Rate | Number | Percentage

 

1      | 170   | 1.42%

2      | 236   | 1.97%

3      | 1921 | 16.1%

4      | 1218 | 10.2%

5      | 1892 | 15.8%

6      | 1296 | 10.8%

7*     | 5218 | 43.7%

 

*basically unrated, but still warships.

Edited by Yar987

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Last one for now

 

Battle of Trafalgar

 

British Fleet = 33 ships

1st = 3 or 9%

2nd = 5 or 15%

3rd = 19 or 58%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 4 or 12%

6th = 0 or 0%

7th = 2 or 6%

 

Spanish/French Fleet = 39 ships

1st = 4 or 10%

2nd = 5 or 13%

3rd = 23 or 60%

4th = 0 or 0%

5th = 5 or 13%

6th = 2 or 5%

7th = 0 or 0%

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Threedecks has a pretty great collection of ship-related information. 

 

I don't know how close to complete it is, but they list the following number of ships launched (so ships built before 1600 aren't included) from 1600-1830:

 

Rate | Number

 

1      | 192

2      | 293

3      | 2068

4      | 1602

5      | 2305

6      | 1630

7*     | 5700

 

*basically unrated, but still warships.

Number launched is not the question, the question is what where the % of what type ship of the line composed a battle fleet. The more I look at these fleets the more a pattern evolves.

 

1st rates about 10%

2nd rates about 15 to 20%

3rd rates 40 to 60%

4th rates hardly any at this point.

5th and below about 10%

 

So in a deep water 25 ship PB it should be this as the restrictions for ship size:

1st = 3

2nd = 5

3rd = 15

4th and lower = 2

 

Shallow is a different story all together as gun # and weight are more a factor than rating. So?:

Niagara = 3

Mercury = 5

Snow, Brig, Navy Brig = 15

Privateer, Cutter, Pickle, Lynx = 2

 

Wonder if we could go 30 vs. 30 PB's?

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Number launched is not the question, the question is what where the % of what type ship of the line composed a battle fleet. The more I look at these fleets the more a pattern evolves.

 

 

Wonder if we could go 30 vs. 30 PB's?

 

I know, was just showing the overall ratio :) Plus, it looks like the ratio of the SoL's built is pretty much the same as the ratios of them used in battle.

 

Do you know if the current 25vs25 limit is for performance reasons? 

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I think it is for performance reasons.

 

 

Also while true for the most part a fleet comprised of mainly 3rd rates, in a game it will be hard to force only 1-3 1st rates in a battle.  

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The thing about 3rd rates is that they can certainly stand the line of battle in terms of armor and armament, but aren't too expensive, nor demanding on resources. They're also not the slowest ships of the line ever, so they can actually serve well around ports and in blockades. 1st/2nd rates tend to be ridiculously expensive, very demanding on manpower/resources, and though they deal and can take a major punch, they're basically giant floating bricks. 

 

To sum up, 3rd rates can play multiple roles, are more flexible in terms of demands, less expensive and still very reliable in fleet action.

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I have made the point probably until most of the SLRN are bored of it that first rates in this game are just too damned easy to get, they should be the rarity not the norm which they are, some mechanic needs to be introduced to make them back to the rarity in numbers as you have pointed out in your historic battle stats.

 

Either make them crazy incredibly expensive to build (many gold notes more than we have now to get one) or give them some kind of crazy resource requirement to keep them maintained in fighting condition/take to battle, say its 10 million gold to provision a first rate to make it so you can sail it into the open world, that way its rare as rocking horse s**t in the open world, I know it wont happen this way but its nice to dream :)

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I think it is for performance reasons.

 

 

Also while true for the most part a fleet comprised of mainly 3rd rates, in a game it will be hard to force only 1-3 1st rates in a battle.  

 

 

The thing about 3rd rates is that they can certainly stand the line of battle in terms of armor and armament, but aren't too expensive, nor demanding on resources. They're also not the slowest ships of the line ever, so they can actually serve well around ports and in blockades. 1st/2nd rates tend to be ridiculously expensive, very demanding on manpower/resources, and though they deal and can take a major punch, they're basically giant floating bricks. 

 

To sum up, 3rd rates can play multiple roles, are more flexible in terms of demands, less expensive and still very reliable in fleet action.

 

 

I have made the point probably until most of the SLRN are bored of it that first rates in this game are just too damned easy to get, they should be the rarity not the norm which they are, some mechanic needs to be introduced to make them back to the rarity in numbers as you have pointed out in your historic battle stats.

 

Either make them crazy incredibly expensive to build (many gold notes more than we have now to get one) or give them some kind of crazy resource requirement to keep them maintained in fighting condition/take to battle, say its 10 million gold to provision a first rate to make it so you can sail it into the open world, that way its rare as rocking horse s**t in the open world, I know it wont happen this way but its nice to dream :)

 

There's a lot of upcoming mechanics that can change what ships are "best", and help get us to these numbers.

 

Land in battles will definitely be interesting, since maneuvering will be much more important. How will the slow, difficult to turn 1st rates hold up when not supported by a proper amount of 3rd's?

 

Crew upkeep/hiring/provisioning is going to be looked at eventually, and that can have a huge effect on how and when it's economical to use what ships. 

 

Between tweaking construction costs, upkeep, and the actual fighting ability of the ships, there's going to be a way to get us there.

Edited by Yar987

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