Open letter to Game Labs regarding RNoN and DRUNK.

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

What is being discussed here is how to measure the power of one player over the other.

As a GAME is not a political system we must have more imagination with the help of the devs.

Please guys, stop trying to force your laws.

It would be the same as forbidding me to talk to the enemy nation players... it is ridiculous. ( yes it happened but you know me, f... that )

And this is what I've been trying to get across. There is no legit power, hence I can privateer in then name of Sweden for as much as I can.

Once again, for the 100'th time, official statement granting authority and I will follow. Untill then, no.

What is being discussed here is how to measure the power of one player over the other.

As a GAME is not a political system we must have more imagination with the help of the devs.

Please guys, stop trying to force your laws.

It would be the same as forbidding me to talk to the enemy nation players... it is ridiculous. ( yes it happened but you know me, f... that )

And this is what I've been trying to get across. There is no legit power, hence I can privateer in then name of Sweden for as much as I can.

Once again, for the 100'th time, official statement granting authority and I will follow. Untill then, no.

[Captain Underpants]

Lets move on from insulting each other and instead work on some ideas for how Diplomace mechanics etc could be improved. To that end I have posted a new thread with some ideas on it. Please do take a look and give some (polite!) feedback.

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12650-diplomacy-and-port-battles-a-new-vision/

[D'Orleans]

Well if nobody wants to give in, this will never get settled. And this will take until one of both sides gives up realy.

 

..and that's pretty much it right there isn't it?

 

In your own real life nations, no matter which you live in, do you not have people living there who disagree with your respective governments? (Especially self appointed governments) Are they "pirates" too?

 

People want realism in a game. This is another form of it. The way politics generally work here, as with most other games, is the biggest clan runs the show because they refuse to be told what to do by a smaller clan or else they won't join your coalition or whatever you choose to name it. Are they then labelled "pirates"? God forbid a smaller clan leaves the fold, or even worse...individual people leave several clans to form a new one of like-minded people. Isn't that what a clan is supposed to be? Or are they just "trouble makers"?

 

Like it or not doesn't matter. Just play your game and be happy you found it. If this all stresses you out so much maybe you should find something else to do. No need for all the drama.

[Kloothommel]

The in-game trolls like DRUNK and RNON can be best taken care of by ignoring them. The diplomacy update will take care of them and they will go away then...

[Grim DeGrim]

I've personally closed nation chat and global. I haven't been reading national news.

My game play enjoyment had tripled.

Les Abaisse is now 9 members. In a few months, taking ports will be possible. If "France" complains, I won't know any better.

Enjoy your games respectively

[Baron Quertier]

I've personally closed nation chat and global. I haven't been reading national news.

My game play enjoyment had tripled.

Les Abaisse is now 9 members. In a few months, taking ports will be possible. If "France" complains, I won't know any better.

Enjoy your games respectively

The irony is, the CSNF will probably complain. But the nation that has been attacked will probably just counter attack the next day against the port that was taken. Edited March 29, 2016 by Morey

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

The in-game trolls like DRUNK and RNON can be best taken care of by ignoring them. The diplomacy update will take care of them and they will go away then...

And yet again, you do nothing but brand DRUNK and RNON for no reason what so ever. Instead of trying to achieve something better for both of us. You can obviously see that many people agree with our cause and even people who don't who can still respect us, they agree to disagree and move on. So I'll tell you the same thing I told someone else not long ago, would you like to continue this unwanted drama that does nothing but tear Sweden into two fragments or would you like to sit down here in this thread and work for a solution?

Your move.

[Kloothommel]

And yet again, you do nothing but brand DRUNK and RNON for no reason what so ever. Instead of trying to achieve something better for both of us. You can obviously see that many people agree with our cause and even people who don't who can still respect us, they agree to disagree and move on. So I'll tell you the same thing I told someone else not long ago, would you like to continue this unwanted drama that does nothing but tear Sweden into two fragments or would you like to sit down here in this thread and work for a solution?

Your move.

The solution is a system where the national goal is unified. Where dissent can be dealt with.

[Mored]

Really funny thread.

 

I dont see a reason for this "aggressive behave" against players. They want to play the game like they want.

In my eyes it should not be possible to do "agreements" with other nations. If you dont want to attack just dont do it, but dont try to force others to act the same.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mored

[Enraged Ewok]

The solution is a system where the national goal is unified. Where dissent can be dealt with.

 

I do not think diplomacy will bring what you think it will bring. This is an sandbox combat game set in the age of sail, not a grand strategy game. It is up to each player how they decide to play and help their nation, and different players will go about that goal in different ways. The idea that a clan leader (or even a coalition of clans) can speak for any player outside that clan or coalition is utterly absurd and has no place in this game.

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

Everyone, I've added a small paragraph on the very end of the post itself. I hope everyone can read it and honor it. 

 

 

The solution is a system where the national goal is unified. Where dissent can be dealt with.

What would this system look like? We need details if we are to suggest it to the developers. 

Would it be one ruler over a faction? A council of the clans with x ammount of players? A council with one representative from every clan? Faction elections where one player has one vote? Should these votes be majority by 51%? 75%? 99%? 10%? How would people refusing to follow be dealt with? How would loyalty be uphold? Why would your suggestion be good? Why would your suggestion be bad? 

Details, so we can discuss and developers can think and see what the community wants.

[Vllad]

 

The only limit that DRUNK have, is that they should not attack ports that belong to the Danish nation. That is the only limitation of their gameplay experience.

 

 

 

If that is the only thing they want to do then that is one limitation too many. I am not even on your server and I would join Drunk on this principle alone.

 

If the Danes on your server aren't smart enough to understand who they have a deal with then your peace deal probably sucks anyway.

 

Sounds to me Drunk is the most exciting clan to play with on the entire Swede team. Peace deals in general ruin the game. The elimination of PVP of any kind just makes Naval Action boring.

 

The one thing throughout this entire thread was no-one has even considered that Drunk may be correct. Is it even remotely possible that Drunk's position that you should keep fighting the Danes is the right one? Who cares if you lose, isn't it more fun to fight it out? Sheesh you have so many options if you lose and it isn't like the map dots are all that important anyway.

 

From the outside looking in I read this thread when considering where we are going to go from PVP2 when they merge us with PVP1. I know one thing, I sure as hell don't want to be a Swede. I don't want to bring a hard core PVP guild from one server and join a team full of soft players unwilling to play it out until the end when things get tough.  

 

The majority of Swedes views here are way off base, soft and don't really inspire any other pvpers to join you.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Vllad

[Grim DeGrim]

I can tell you how other historical world leaders have "dealt with" minorities...

This is not a game philosophy discussion. This is about power and the "right" to wield it.

Had anyone taken stock of the impact 2 small groups have had? Very little.

"But Grim, they're starting to take ports now! What if they become strong enough to hold them too?".

Power. That's all this is about.

A few "elite" groups trying to maintain a power base - and to have gone so far as to create tribunal threads.

Using fear and bullying.

Abuse in national chats.

Abuse here in forums.

And only because they have a different vision of game play. A compliant should be lodged.

If anything, I should hope that the development team makes a strong statement about the treatment of Drunk and RNON. Overall, very unacceptable by "the majority".

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

If that is the only thing they want to do then that is one limitation too many. I am not even on your server and I would join Drunk on this principle alone.

 

Sounds to me Drunk is the most exciting clan to play with on the entire Swede team. Peace deals in general ruin the game. The elimination of PVP of any kind just makes Naval Action boring.

 

The one thing throughout this entire thread was no-one has even considered that Drunk may be correct. Is it even remotely possible that Drunk's position that you should keep fighting the Danes is the right one? Who cares if you lose, isn't it more fun to fight it out? Sheesh you have so many options if you lose and it isn't like the map dots are all that important anyway.

These lines made me really smile. And yes, I highlighted PvP in the original post because of just that reason. It is a PvP server so let it be just that, a PvP server.

 

 

If the Danes on your server aren't smart enough to understand who they have a deal with then your peace deal probably sucks anyway.

Which is also why I questioned the gigantic pressence of danish ships preppared for battle in both the port battle versus a swedish port (this was started before DRUNK attacked the danish port) and swedish waters in general.

Why didn't they instantly contact eachother with their diplomats as shit hit the fan?

Why are the danes being provoked by a, if I sum other comments, "known rogue clan that griefs"?

Why shit hit the fan to begin with was because a random clan less guy attacked the danish port Fort Baai, once again, why wasnt this instantly solved internally between the "kings and leaders" instead of bringing up two tribunal posts against two "known rogue clans that griefs" that hasnt even done anything wrong?

Edited March 29, 2016 by Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän

[thp]

Let me resume the situation if I understand it well, Drunks from Sweden want to attack the Dane-mark Norway but the other sweden clan didnt want to and RNoN from Dane-mark Norway want to attack Sweden but the other Dans dont want to either.

Why not let Drunk and RNoN fighting each other as much as they want and bring our popcorn and watch ?

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

I can tell you how other historical world leaders have "dealt with" minorities...

This is not a game philosophy discussion. This is about power and the "right" to wield it.

Had anyone taken stock of the impact 2 small groups have had? Very little.

"But Grim, they're starting to take ports now! What if they become strong enough to hold them too?".

Power. That's all this is about.

A few "elite" groups trying to maintain a power base - and to have gone so far as to create tribunal threads.

Using fear and bullying.

Abuse in national chats.

Abuse here in forums.

And only because they have a different vision of game play. A compliant should be lodged.

If anything, I should hope that the development team makes a strong statement about the treatment of Drunk and RNON. Overall, very unacceptable by "the majority".

Hear, hear!

[Vllad]

If anything, I should hope that the development team makes a strong statement about the treatment of Drunk and RNON. Overall, very unacceptable by "the majority".

 

 

Well said.

 

PVP1 is about to get the hard core pvpers from PVP2 that have stuck it out. When seeing how the majority of Swedes have treated their other clansmen even if that Majority is 100% correct certainly doesn't make other players want to join the Swedes.  

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

Let me resume the situation if I understand it well, Drunks from Sweden want to attack the Dane-mark Norway but the other sweden clan didnt want to and RNoN from Dane-mark Norway want to attack Sweden but the other Dans dont want to either.

Why not let Drunk and RNoN fighting each other as much as they want and bring our popcorn and watch ?

As a DRUNK, I wouldnt have a problem with that. RNON are very humble and polite and I am sure we would have a lot of good and fun fights sinking eachother.

 

I've never once stated that I want the entire faction of Sweden to goto war with Denmark-Norway. I've simply stated that I want to battle them. Is it really that hard to exclude us from the peace treaty and leave us alone? Just like you said.

[Francis Tabernac]

Well said.

 

PVP1 is about to get the hard core pvpers from PVP2 that have stuck it out. When seeing how the majority of Swedes have treated their other clansmen even if that Majority is 100% correct certainly doesn't make other players want to join the Swedes.  

 

You probably won't want to join France, either. When this all started I pointed to PURGE on PvP2 as inspiration to keep fighting, because it had been proven that a supposedly-beaten group can take a small holding, fight back, and eventually win again. I was roundly declared a pirate, retard, troll etc etc when 'the nation' decided to surrender a day and a half into the war. Why? Well the statements were initially that going all the way up north to fight the Danes felt too much like work and if the game is a job then people won't want to do it, which is fair. The official word though was that we had to surrender because having to fight to defend our ports when we didn't want to was a broken mechanic and we couldn't survive without the SE corner resources, etc etc. Despite adequate proof that this wasn't true. It's been this sort of childish nonsense ever since, and it's only gotten worse as you can see. Everything is now a conspiracy, everybody is cheating, everybody has alts in every other country to spy and rig PBs... it's pitiful.

[Slamz]

I wonder if it would be interesting to let players form their own nations. This would make the game more like EVE but might actually be better.

 

I could simply start "Empire of Slamz". It's my nation. I can let you join it and I can kick you out. The alliances and wars are set by me. Don't like it? Start or join a different nation. Maybe we'll ally up but you have control over your nation and I have control over mine.

 

I just wonder if this game would work better as "clan based" (more like EVE) rather than "fixed team based" (more like DAOC or ESO). It would certainly solve problems like this. Maybe the "official teams" can still exist but it would give total freedom to any group that really wants to go off and do their own thing. Roleplayers could still form offshoot groups like "West India Squadron" that is a clan-nation that happens to be allied with Britain but the rules of their nation and therefore their ports are totally in their control.

 

 

Forcing people into fixed teams -- and then having a bunch of teams on an imbalanced map -- is going to invite a lot of trouble.

[Francis Tabernac]

Eh, I can certainly see the appeal of that, having played EVE for ages too. I think a lot of the appeal to this is to sail under the historical flavour and auspices of these particular nations, though. What people fail to realise is that we're just ship captains. When it comes to the actual National diplomatic situations of the historical setting we're nobodies. What would make the most sense to me is that the Devs would occasionally say "the King of X and the Queen of Y have declared war" and then we fight it out, because that's how things would have really gone. Nobody would have given a damn if Captain Soandso of the HMS Carebear wanted peace.

 

Edit to add: Just to reiterate the appeal of Dev/Admin-run diplomatic standings. It would solve the whole issue of "oh my God we're gonna lose all of our ports don't ruin the game for everyone!" because once a nation gets hammered, the show-runners just say "Well, King X has sued for peace, you're no longer at war." and then turn around and have two other countries declare war against a nation that's gotten too big for its britches. Takes the ego out of it for our adorable little wanna-be Kings in the game, which can only help. It takes away the ability to fight against great odds that a lot of people are also after, to some extent, but there's no reason separate mechanics for that can't be added to. OW combat but no possibility to attack ports for X amount of time because of peace accord, etc etc. I'm gonna stop editing the same post to add little bits now

Edited March 29, 2016 by Francis Tabernac

[Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän]

I wonder if it would be interesting to let players form their own nations. This would make the game more like EVE but might actually be better.

 

I could simply start "Empire of Slamz". It's my nation. I can let you join it and I can kick you out. The alliances and wars are set by me. Don't like it? Start or join a different nation. Maybe we'll ally up but you have control over your nation and I have control over mine.

 

I just wonder if this game would work better as "clan based" (more like EVE) rather than "fixed team based" (more like DAOC or ESO). It would certainly solve problems like this. Maybe the "official teams" can still exist but it would give total freedom to any group that really wants to go off and do their own thing. Roleplayers could still form offshoot groups like "West India Squadron" that is a clan-nation that happens to be allied with Britain but the rules of their nation and therefore their ports are totally in their control.

 

 

Forcing people into fixed teams -- and then having a bunch of teams on an imbalanced map -- is going to invite a lot of trouble.

Interesting thought, I do not however know if it's the best solution. But it's a good one for sure.

 

Just a thought, do you believe that we'd need more ports in the map in order to make this happen?

I'm affraid there would be too many port less clans.. but maybe they would be able to use the neutral ports I suppose..?

Nobody would have given a damn if Captain Soandso of the HMS Carebear wanted peace.

Actually made me laugh, almost spilling my coke.

[Vllad]

You probably won't want to join France, either. When this all started I pointed to PURGE on PvP2 as inspiration to keep fighting, because it had been proven that a supposedly-beaten group can take a small holding, fight back, and eventually win again. I was roundly declared a pirate, retard, troll etc etc when 'the nation' decided to surrender a day and a half into the war. Why? Well the statements were initially that going all the way up north to fight the Danes felt too much like work and if the game is a job then people won't want to do it, which is fair. The official word though was that we had to surrender because having to fight to defend our ports when we didn't want to was a broken mechanic and we couldn't survive without the SE corner resources, etc etc. Despite adequate proof that this wasn't true. It's been this sort of childish nonsense ever since, and it's only gotten worse as you can see. Everything is now a conspiracy, everybody is cheating, everybody has alts in every other country to spy and rig PBs... it's pitiful.

 

 

Wow, that is really disappointing.

 

So Purge can only look forward to being another Drunk? Are their any teams on PVP1 that are NOT a zerg and are willing to fight to the bitter end, peace deals be damned?

[Grim DeGrim]

Us. DRUNK and RNON.

We could make a "h-e-double-hockeysticks" of a group together.

[Francis Tabernac]

Entire nations? I don't know, honestly. Maybe the Spaniards? They're kind of a silly bunch on the whole, who knows. It's generally just a couple of clans here and there.