Musuko42 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Can you provide proof that it isn't? That's not how it works. You're the one making the assertion (that they're trolls), so it's up to you to prove it, not me to disprove it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Tabernac Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Can you provide proof that it isn't? You're the one making the accusation, so the burden of proof is on you. "You stole that ham!" "No I didn't." "Prove that you didn't!" .... I stopped commenting a while ago, saying that this is basically shouting into the wind. It's quite clear that this hasn't changed. If you don't obey the wishes of the self-proclaimed "majority leaders" then you're immediately a troll and out to only ruin the fun for everyone. Ignore the fact that this has been going on for over a month and the world hasn't ended for these darlings, no, that's immaterial! You're still ruining the game for them! Somehow, because reasons! Nevermind that the ones employing trollish tactics to make you play the way they want are the self-proclaimed "majority leaders" themselves, while they accuse you of doing it instead. No, also immaterial! Because logic! One thing this thread has certainly taught me, at least: the vast majority of you don't actually know how logic works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo van Grojt Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 You're the one making the accusation, so the burden of proof is on you. "You stole that ham!" "No I didn't." "Prove that you didn't!" .... I stopped commenting a while ago, saying that this is basically shouting into the wind. It's quite clear that this hasn't changed. If you don't obey the wishes of the self-proclaimed "majority leaders" then you're immediately a troll and out to only ruin the fun for everyone. Ignore the fact that this has been going on for over a month and the world hasn't ended for these darlings, no, that's immaterial! You're still ruining the game for them! Somehow, because reasons! Nevermind that the ones employing trollish tactics to make you play the way they want are the self-proclaimed "majority leaders" themselves, while they accuse you of doing it instead. No, also immaterial! Because logic! One thing this thread has certainly taught me, at least: the vast majority of you don't actually know how logic works I made a whole page worth of arguments why the "We just want to play the game whatever way we see fit" argument and the "the majority is dictating us how to enjoy the game! we just want some PvP!" arguments are unfounded, because there ARE plenty of ways to enjoy the game at its fullest without pissing off the entire player community. The counter argument was "any concession I have to make (such as turning Pirate if you are playing as one) is unacceptable, because I am right and oppression and .... well... because oppression" So do not feed me the "burden of proof" cake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vllad Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Public naming and shaming of the dissenters and trolls while simultaneously demanding a change of the ruleset by the devs. Ahh yes, this is certainly one logical way to go that I am sure will net you the results you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dala Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) JUST GO PIRATE IF UR PLAYING AS A PIRATE! OTHERWISE.... there is just no point in having a pirate nation Edited March 31, 2016 by Dala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enraged Ewok Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 The counter argument was "any concession I have to make (such as turning Pirate if you are playing as one) is unacceptable, because I am right and oppression and .... well... because oppression" So do not feed me the "burden of proof" cake Once again, your argument has no ground because you are telling them to play by your invented rules or leave. They are playing as Swedish privateers, and there is not a single thing wrong with that with the current ROE. That they're playing in a way you don't want them to is immaterial. Find a way to compromise, or agree to disagree. But this shenanigans with demanding they go pirate, to the point of making tribunal threads asking the Devs to forcibly turn them pirate, calling them trolls just because they disagree with you, is incredibly immature and does nothing but discredit any valid argument you do make. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Tabernac Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) CAPITAL LETTERS MAKE MY POINT FOR ME. I made a whole page worth of arguments why the "We just want to play the game whatever way we see fit" argument and the "the majority is dictating us how to enjoy the game! we just want some PvP!" arguments are unfounded, because there ARE plenty of ways to enjoy the game at its fullest without pissing off the entire player community. The counter argument was "any concession I have to make (such as turning Pirate if you are playing as one) is unacceptable, because I am right and oppression and .... well... because oppression" So do not feed me the "burden of proof" cake Your argument was that if everyone just did as you wanted then they wouldn't be restricted except in the ways you'd restrict them, and they could do whatever they wanted except for some of the things they may want. That's not logic. It's also ridiculous. Let me explain, for the kids in the audience, what logic actually is, since so many of you clearly don't understand: Logic does not make something right or wrong, correct or incorrect. Logic does not support an argument in that way. Logic is merely a tool to prove internal consistency within an argument. The fact that you contradict yourself repeatedly says nothing about whether or not it's correct either, though logic proves that it's an invalid argument. See how that works? You're welcome. The "burden of proof cake" is entirely separate, as I'm sure you're bright enough to understand. See, this ridiculous level of argumentation is why I stopped responding in the first place. Edited March 31, 2016 by Francis Tabernac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 Can you provide proof that it isn't? As many others already have stated, not up to us to do so. It's your job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Tabernac Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) As many others already have stated, not up to us to do so. It's your job. Hey man, don't go feeding him that burden of proof cake! You no-good troll, you! Edited March 31, 2016 by Francis Tabernac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dala Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 privateers worked for the nation. not against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Tabernac Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 privateers worked for the nation. not against it. They worked for the government, in whatever form that took, which you are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 JUST GO PIRATE IF UR PLAYING AS A PIRATE! OTHERWISE.... there is just no point in having a pirate nation privateers worked for the nation. not against it. It is your personal thoughts that we're working against the nation. Until there is a legit power and authority in Sweden, you cannot give yourself the right to say who is and who is not working for and against it. Also. Once again. We're not pirates. You still don't seem to understand the difference between a pirate and a privateer. Let me however help you out so you can understand the difference beetween them. On Steam, Naval Action is described with the following text; "Naval Action is an exciting, realistic and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ruled the seas." Realistic. They want realism. That's why you can only play as the nations that actually had ports in "the new world". If they want realism, they should also have privateers. But once again, you say privateers are pirates and that we therefore have chosen the wrong faction. Well. Let us look at these two words, privateer and pirate, and see what they truely mean. Pirate; "A person who robs or commits illegal violence at sea or on the shores of the sea." Privateer; "An armed ship that is privately owned and manned, comminissioned by a government to fight or harass enemy ships." Soo.. What is DRUNK doing again..? We're fighting and harassing enemy ships.. Under the flag of Sweden.. So what does that make us? Pirates or privateers? And please, don't just say pirate. Look at the definitions and think really hard buddy. I am sure you will see that you're in the wrong, atleast when it comes to what terms you are using. Also, to gain those definitions I used http://www.dictionary.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonar Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Who is the government for DRUNK? When you are privateers you need a government to play for... so who or what is it? Edited March 31, 2016 by Thonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo van Grojt Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Once again, your argument has no ground because you are telling them to play by your invented rules or leave. They are playing as Swedish privateers, and there is not a single thing wrong with that with the current ROE. That they're playing in a way you don't want them to is immaterial. Find a way to compromise, or agree to disagree. But this shenanigans with demanding they go pirate, to the point of making tribunal threads asking the Devs to forcibly turn them pirate, calling them trolls just because they disagree with you, is incredibly immature and does nothing but discredit any valid argument you do make. Okay, let's play the "burden of proof" game, lol Where do I tell anyone to play by my invented rules or leave? I am not even Danish or Swedish Full quotes, please, if you will. And while we are at it: Please explain to me what a "Swedish privateer" is in your book if there is no government to appoint them as a privateer (remember: DRUNK and RNON explicitly claim that the game does not have any government mechanics). And last but not least, enlighten me why any player should accept their decision to roleplay as a "Swedish privateers" if none of them accept the decision of the majority of their nations' players to roleplay an imaginary council government and a national diplomacy. I'll get my popcorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo van Grojt Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 CAPITAL LETTERS MAKE MY POINT FOR ME. Your argument was that if everyone just did as you wanted then they wouldn't be restricted except in the ways you'd restrict them, and they could do whatever they wanted except for some of the things they may want. That's not logic. It's also ridiculous. Let me explain, for the kids in the audience, what logic actually is, since so many of you clearly don't understand: Logic does not make something right or wrong, correct or incorrect. Logic does not support an argument in that way. Logic is merely a tool to prove internal consistency within an argument. The fact that you contradict yourself repeatedly says nothing about whether or not it's correct either, though logic proves that it's an invalid argument. See how that works? You're welcome. The "burden of proof cake" is entirely separate, as I'm sure you're bright enough to understand. See, this ridiculous level of argumentation is why I stopped responding in the first place. What a cute attempt, young padawan The argument is that the only limitation placed on the few (just do not attack ports of a nation that your nation has negotiated a peace with) is acceptable given that doing so is an infringement of the right of 600 other players to play the (diplomacy) game the way that THEY want. It is a classic case of the interest of the many outweighing the interest of the few. Now keep up the condescending tone, light forum PVP permitted and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 Who is the government for DRUNK? Since there is no real authority yet announced; no one. If you're talking RP wise? Meta-gaming wise it's the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slamz Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Who is the government for DRUNK? When you are privateers you need a government to play for... so who or what is it? I would throw in a suggestion that the government is the actual NPC government of their nation, who, as clearly indicated by red names, has declared permanent everlasting war with every other nation. We players can attempt to create our own deals but from a pure perspective of rules-and-mechanics-of-the-game, you are always at war with everyone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Tabernac Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Okay, let's play the "burden of proof" game, lol Where do I tell anyone to play by my invented rules or leave? I am not even Danish or Swedish Full quotes, please, if you will. The argument is that the only limitation placed on the few (just do not attack ports of a nation that your nation has negotiated a peace with) is acceptable given that doing so is an infringement of the right of 600 other players to play the (diplomacy) game the way that THEY want. It is a classic case of the interest of the many outweighing the interest of the few. You're welcome. But as you said, cute attempt. Something something dark side something hypocrisy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo van Grojt Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 You're welcome. But as you said, cute attempt. Something something dark side something hypocrisy. At least we do agree on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 You're welcome. But as you said, cute attempt. Something something dark side something hypocrisy. Every time you write a comment, I spend 5 minutes just watching your avatar. It's.. calming.. for some odd reason... Do I need counseling? :s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonar Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) @Siju: When there is RP-wise no government (except that there are people roleplaying one, which DRUNK doesn't accept because they don't like their decisions), then there can't be privateers. Thus you are pirates. I would throw in a suggestion that the government is the actual NPC government of their nation, who, as clearly indicated by red names, has declared permanent everlasting war with every other nation. We players can attempt to create our own deals but from a pure perspective of rules-and-mechanics-of-the-game, you are always at war with everyone. An NPC-government? Interesting thought except this government couldn't be able to buy privateers... so in the end there are no privateers either.In case there is a NPC government: Then the council would be a naval High-Command leading Swedish fleets in the area on behalf of the NPC government and thus does also gives out targets for privateers. In such a case DRUNK would be traitors, not privateers. Roleplaying wise you can't deny the others their right to role play too, which means you do not play your role correctly. From a game-mechanic standpoint is the game intended to be played with diplomacy in mind even when not yet implemented in this Alpha-build is it part of the game. Thus the council-side plays the game as it is intended to be, while DRUNK is playing the game in an unfinished and not intended way. Edited March 31, 2016 by Thonar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 At least we do agree on this one SEE! PROGRESSION! We've agreed on one thing! Now, let's continue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSloth Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 JUST GO PIRATE IF UR PLAYING AS A PIRATE! OTHERWISE.... there is just no point in having a pirate nation I thought Sju explained the difference between Pirates and Privateers quite well, but I guess when a reasonable argument can't be achieved you can always resort to caps I'm going to make this one last post before I no longer entertain these arguments. If the so called majority of Sweden actually thinks they have any leverage on us they're mistaken, we have absolutely no reason or incentive to stop our offensives against the French or Danes, and if you think continuing calling us trolls and pirates will make us fall in line again you're mistaken. The fact you ignorantly assume the devs will implement a diplomacy system that oppresses the minority is quite entertaining, what makes you think it will benefit you? It's just assumptions your mind is making to support this flawed "treaty" you're so desperate to maintain. This behavior will get you nowhere with my clan and I, currently we're quite happy attacking enemy shipping and there's no reason to stop. Unless you have a decent proposal I'd consider this discussion over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonar Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) I thought Sju explained the difference between Pirates and Privateers quite well, but I guess when a reasonable argument can't be achieved you can always resort to caps I'm going to make this one last post before I no longer entertain these arguments. If the so called majority of Sweden actually thinks they have any leverage on us they're mistaken, we have absolutely no reason or incentive to stop our offensives against the French or Danes, and if you think continuing calling us trolls and pirates will make us fall in line again you're mistaken. The fact you ignorantly assume the devs will implement a diplomacy system that oppresses the minority is quite entertaining, what makes you think it will benefit you? It's just assumptions your mind is making to support this flawed "treaty" you're so desperate to maintain. This behavior will get you nowhere with my clan and I, currently we're quite happy attacking enemy shipping and there's no reason to stop. Unless you have a decent proposal I'd consider this discussion over.Siju, with this post of your clanleader every word of you is wasted.DrunkenSloth: When you believe the diplomacy-system will put the ideas of a minority over a majority, you are wrong. The game will allow you probably to fight allies... but you will porbably become pirates or being punished otherwise. Everyhting else would mean there wouldn't be a Diplomacy-System in action. Edited March 31, 2016 by Thonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musuko42 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I made a whole page worth of arguments why the "We just want to play the game whatever way we see fit" argument and the "the majority is dictating us how to enjoy the game! we just want some PvP!" arguments are unfounded That isn't proof that their motivation is to annoy other players. Trolling requires intent to annoy, not just the effect of annoying. You've not proven that intent. because there ARE plenty of ways to enjoy the game at its fullest without pissing off the entire player community. How can they enjoy the game to its fullest if you want to restrict them from one of the things they want to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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