RNoN, accused of high treason.

[Herminator]

Noone is telling anyone else to obey.

 

When RNoN moved here, we offered them a seat at the table. They refused with the motion that they wanted to their own stuff.

Clans are optional yes, but when all clans that were here, and had been here for a long time, agreed on the diplomatic stance, we fell we get screwed by a small random clan consisting of 40members. Now we feel they are ruining the game for us. Is that not fair? Now they expect us to show them respect when they have given none, nor have they in our eyes deserved it.

One of the things now beeing discussed is if we shall join Pirates instead and make a war against Denmark-Norway. Since that is the only way we actually can retaliate on them.

[Belize]

Pirates? They are nothing special...they are just acting like any other nation, forcing small clans or solo players to play like the "council" wants to.

[Herminator]

Pirates? They are nothing special...they are just acting like any other nation, forcing small clans or solo players to play like the "council" wants to.

Good! Atleast they are enabled to enforce it!

Good some nations actually can enforce diplomacy.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Herminator

[Jonathan Arlington]

Noone is telling anyone else to obey.

When RNoN moved here, we offered them a seat at the table. They refused with the motion that they wanted to their own stuff.

Clans are optional yes, but when all clans that were here, and had been here for a long time, agreed on the diplomatic stance, we fell we get screwed by a small random clan consisting of 40members. Now we feel they are ruining the game for us. Is that not fair? Now they expect us to show them respect when they have given none, nor have they in our eyes deserved it.

One of the things now beeing discussed is if we shall join Pirates instead and make a war against Denmark-Norway. Since that is the only way we actually can retaliate on them.

I am quite not a fan of this pirate-overgrow because of ingame mechanics mistakes. These are the wrong reasons to join Pirates. Besides I like you as the Navy enemy you are more than a wooden leg thief version . ???? Edited March 29, 2016 by Jonathan Arlington

[KuroNyra]

Good! Atleast they are enabled to enforce it!

Good some nations actually can enforce diplomacy.

Heck, maybe all French Clans and All other guy bored with theses rogue should join pirates?

[Belize]

Good! Atleast they are enabled to enforce it!

Good some nations actually can enforce diplomacy.

 

then go to the pirates yourself...there you can FORCE people as much as you want...

[Musuko42]

we fell we get screwed by a small random clan consisting of 40members. Now we feel they are ruining the game for us. Is that not fair?

 

As far as I'm aware, in the game all factions are at war with every other faction. Your "peace treaties" are the exploit and the improper way of playing. Their fighting of the war is the correct way of playing to the current game mechanics.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Musuko42

[Herminator]

To who it may concern,

 

I am writing this response as a player not as the ingame character Hugo van Grojt, just to be clear. I am copying this response from the other "open letter to the devs" thread, because it applies to this thread here just the same. Replace DRUNK with RNON as you see fit - they are the same for the sake of the argument:

 

The main argument presented by DRUNK and their supporters is essentially the following: 

"Any player should be allowed to play the game as they see fit. Nobody should be allowed to dictate how these players play the game."

 

So, before we go into my argument, let's define and establish some core elements.

 

Let's look at the various primary ways, a player may want to play the game:

1. you want to play as a trader/crafter

2. you want to play PVE (mission running and such)

3. you want to engage in small scale open world PvP (raiding, ganking, et cetera)

4. you want to engage in port battles and SOL fighting

5. you want to participate in the RvR aspect of the game (national wars)

 

Additionally, let us briefly look at what the role of a clan is within the current game mechanics. By joining an ingame clan you, as a player:

1. get a clan tag in front of your name

2. get access to a clan chat and clan mail

That is it, as far as the game is concerned. Nothing more.

 

But what does joining a clan mean for most players? (my personal assumption!) By joining a clan,

1. you join a group of players that most likely share your interests and goals in the game

2. you give authority to the leaders/officials that the clan members elect to lead. 

3. you accept that these clan leaders speak on your behalf during RvR negotiations or national council meetings - for lack of a better system.

 

Okay, now we have established a baseline and the core assumptions. Now, let us explore the original argument using the ingame faction Sweden and Denmark as example:

 

- The majority of players for each nation (organised in the biggest clans, that share a common vision) have agreed not to attack the ports of the opposing faction.

- Some smaller clans disagree with that majority decision and attack ports of the opposing faction using the argument "We just want to play the game as we see fit!"

 

How does the peace decision by the majority of players of each nation prohibit you from playing the game as you want?

1. you want to play as a trader/crafter - you can still do so within the confines of the ports your nation owns

2. you want to play PVE (mission running and such) - you can still do so within the confines of the territory your nation owns

3. you want to engage in small scale open world PvP (raiding, ganking, et cetera) - you can still do so, seeking out enemies that your nation is actually at war with - plenty of opportunities to be had there

4. you want to engage in port battles and SOL fighting - you can still do so, your clan or group of players is free to organise and independent attack on a port of the nation that your nation is at war with. For example, nobody will likely stop DRUNK from attacking a British port.

5. you want to participate in the RvR aspect of the game (national wars) - this is the ONLY part of the game where you are limited. If you absolutely want to wage war against the Danish/Swedish, you actually need to convince the majority of players playing the RvR game that this is the right way to go by increasing your clan member numbers or gaining support from other clans.

 

So, by using some logic, we have established that majority decisions concerning national wars DO NOT prevent players from playing the game as they want. Even if the majority of citizens of a nation agree on having peace between Denmark and Sweden, the players of DRUNK and other small clans still have PLENTY of opportunities to trade, PVE, small scale PvP, do port battles to their hearts' content . The only limit that DRUNK have, is that they should not attack ports that belong to the Danish nation. That is the only limitation of their gameplay experience.

 

My personal opinion in this case is that the interest of the many outweigh the interest of the few in this regard. National wars are a huge community effort that the majority of the citizens of each nation participate in. The enjoyment of the RvR aspect of the game by the MANY should not be nullified by the FEW using the liberty argument.

Or to use a real life example: If you absolutely feel that you can only be free if you run around outside naked, you can do so by moving to the countryside and run around in the forest all you like. But if you do that it in a city you should expect to be arrested because the majority of the city dwellers do not want to have to look at your naked ass. If you defend the right to run around naked in a city because of "freedom" or "liberty" - you are just a troll.

 

TL:DR

Given the assumptions above, it is my strong belief that DRUNK and their supporters do not defend the right to play the game as they want, but rather the right to troll the majority of their nation's playerbase in the RvR aspect of the game. Therefore, a backlash by that majority of players is understandable and I am personally in full support of the majority here, because that is how communities work.

 

What he said....

[Samuel Smith]

Noone is telling anyone else to obey.

 

When RNoN moved here, we offered them a seat at the table. They refused with the motion that they wanted to their own stuff.

Clans are optional yes, but when all clans that were here, and had been here for a long time, agreed on the diplomatic stance, we fell we get screwed by a small random clan consisting of 40members. Now we feel they are ruining the game for us. Is that not fair? Now they expect us to show them respect when they have given none, nor have they in our eyes deserved it.

One of the things now beeing discussed is if we shall join Pirates instead and make a war against Denmark-Norway. Since that is the only way we actually can retaliate on them.

herminator you have missjudged our size we are larger than your RDNN and again saying that people are idiots to their face does not instill trust and faith in your Make belive Country called HERMNATORLAND, there is no country called herminatorland for a reason so please stop trying to make it.

 

and frankly,  care not if you Respect me or not only The king and GOD stands in a position to judge me.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Samuel Smith

[Samuel Smith]

"One of the things now beeing discussed is if we shall join Pirates instead and make a war against Denmark-Norway. Since that is the only way we actually can retaliate on them."  So herminator is the under the table Pirate as we all knew i hope you give them a reach around atleast.

[Herminator]

Just to fill in something that everyone seems to be missing out on.

Instead of focusing on the person/character Herminator, keep in mind that he is not the leader of a Denmark-Norway nation, nor the clan RDNN.
The leader of RDNN is Helgur. I do however as a representative of RDNN have a seat in our council consisting of most major clans. A seat was also offered to RNoN, but they refused since we did not want to support their attacks on Sweden.

My role in this council is spokesperson/foreign minister. Not in any case am I a souvereign leader, and I have never even said I were. There seems to be some that are not aware of this.
So by me starting this thread, it was as the spokesperson of this council and agreed upon by all present, not necessarily me as a player........

Edited March 29, 2016 by Herminator

[Captain Underpants]

Noone is telling anyone else to obey.

Yet you started this thread as a Tribunal post against RNoN to have them punished or forcibly moved to the Pirates by the Devs?

[Samuel Smith]

Just to fill in something that everyone seems to be missing out on.

Instead of focusing on the person/character Herminator, keep in mind that he is not the leader of a Denmark-Norway nation, nor the clan RDNN.

The leader of RDNN is Helgur. I do however as a representative of RDNN have a seat in our council consisting of most major clans. A seat was also offered to RNoN, but they refused since we did not want to support their attacks on Sweden.

My role in this council is spokesperson/foreign minister. Not in any case am I a souvereign leader, and I have never even said I were. There seems to be some that are not aware of this.

So by me starting this thread, it was as the spokesperson of this council and agreed upon by all present, not necessarily me as a player........

He finnaly said it HE S NOT THE LEADER OF THS Nation BUT YOU ACT Like YOU ARE PLEASE STOP Trying to be then.

[Teigen]

Just to fill in something that everyone seems to be missing out on.

Instead of focusing on the person/character Herminator, keep in mind that he is not the leader of a Denmark-Norway nation, nor the clan RDNN.

The leader of RDNN is Helgur. I do however as a representative of RDNN have a seat in our council consisting of most major clans. A seat was also offered to RNoN, but they refused since we did not want to support their attacks on Sweden.

My role in this council is spokesperson/foreign minister. Not in any case am I a souvereign leader, and I have never even said I were. There seems to be some that are not aware of this.

So by me starting this thread, it was as the spokesperson of this council and agreed upon by all present, not necessarily me as a player........

 

DKNOs council? who even elected you Herminator ? first off you need an election to make the council, and if you want to make acts for an nation all players have their sayings before someone can for that so called Council you say you are. Spokesperson right under all our talks you have acted like you have been the king. i just want to makes this clear because for me it seems like one clan that merged took that spot and taught they could act like they wanted

 

[Crowley]

Keep the entertainment coming, gentlemen.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Crowley

[Wang]

Wow Herminator.

 

I feel your pain as a fellow diplomat, but also im sitting back and laughing my ass off. Finally glad that our opposites are finally having this same issue. 

 

This is what other nations diplomats have been dealing with since the start of the game!  No one else had the balls to make a tribunal thread about it though.

 

To ask for a clan to forced to go pirate by the devs because they are not following other clans diplomacy is hilarious.  

 

Inter-clan diplomacy is just as important as national diplomacy.  So start working on that end Hermie, it pays off wonders in the end.  

[Erik Eriksen]

Danish nation have had to much success in comparison to our size, and the frontlines are too far from home for some of the clans to come together. Only when we sit besiged at Chritiansted will some of the clans look at the bigger picture and work together I guess.

 

In the same way I guess the attack on Jamaica was a wakeupcall for many brits

[Castello Haufniensis]

The cautionary tale of Captain Dirty

 

This discussion is very general and seems to be abut the right play the game as you see fit. What if it is not about clans an nations? 

 

What if it is about the ambitions of one single individual, who thinks he will be happy if he has power in a little computer world where people amuse themselves fighting with ships made of bits?

 

Admitted it seems quite idiotic use a lot of time, just to have wear the big I-am-the-king-of-this-soon-wiped-map sombrero. But I think you all know that this kind of thinking exist in MMOs.

 

There are lots of ways to become Lord of the Bits. Lets focus on two: One clean, one dirty.

If you are Captain Clean and an officer, you are willing to work for the people playing the game. You try to listen to the people in your faction, clan, alliance, guild or whatever, you try to make an informed descision based on what you hear. Being CaptClean is a lot of work, because in order to decide what "we" are doing, you have got to talk to many people, solve many disagreements and sometimes neglect your own account/character to balance things.

If in the other hand you are Captain Dirty, and the purpose of the game is to feel the rush of self-satisfaction as you command the bits. Being CapDirty is also a lot of work, but the focus of the game is not hearing the other players opinions, but rather to position yourself as lord of the bits.

How can you tell the difference between CaptClean and CapDirty?

1. CaptClean will try to hear a lot of opinions and try to find a compromise. CapDirty will make ultimatums like: "If you don´t do as I say, I will screw things up for you".
2. CaptClean will try to be consistent and refer to a common ground. CapDirty is always your best friend when you talk to him telling you: "You are a good guy". But when you are not there he will tell other people that they are the good guys and that you are an asshat (or even project his own thirst for power over the bits to you).

 

1. Is easily detectable: Playing chicken to destroy what other people have used a lot of time building up makes everyone see the birdy. 2) Is also easily detectable over time. If captX sometimes talks unfavorably about someone, and then changes his mind for no other reason that he needs something from that person to enhance his own power or plain: people telling you of back talking:

I must admit that most leaders are somewhere between capt Clean and capDirty. But as a mere player of the game you are better of with people that are more like captClean and less like captDirty.

Do we have a captDirty in the mix in den/nor on PvP1?

MO:

Start on pvp3

Find a clan.

Tell everyone that wants to listen in that clan that the leader of the clan is powerhungry and that the diplomacy he has made is bad
Get a number of your friends into the clan and let them write in the national chat that the deals negotiated by the biggest clans are made by powerhungry leaders and no god for the nation.
You then arrange a meeting with all the leaders of the different clans in your faction on pvp3, with the other officers and the leader of your own clan (the biggest in the nation)
Then you decide that the deals originally made is OK, that they are sound (probably because the other leaders could see the reason)...but it matters less that the deal you were so against is now good, because it is you sitting at the end of the table?
Your old clan moves to pvp1 partly because the strife you caused in the nation (or let other cause?) but mostly because the population of the server was very low and it was hard to find PvP.....

One week to ten days later you decide to change servers....and since then you have flattered, backtalked, made ultimatums, said you were sorry a number of times (how many times should we believe in your sincerity?)

This story is just a perspective.....but I think the story is less about clans, and disagerment about who attacks which flag, and more about who calls the shots: Captain Clean or CapDirty.

(Disclaimer: I know that the case of rNON seems to be linked to the story of DRUNK. I don´t know much about DRUNK except they took my ship south of Jacmel....so this perspective is perhaps only applicable to NON and not to DRUNK) 

 

And next time: Find someone else to suck up to. I have no vote.
 

[Niels__Juel]

Fellow Captains.

 

  Just to give my 5 cents or more.

In my opinion, when someone from a nation example Denmark-Norway clan A makes a peace treaty with said Sweden clan B, that is NOT a peace treaty between Nation Denmark-Norway and Nation Sweden, thats a none aggression pact between said clan A and clan B, anyone from other clans within those two Nations are in no way bound by agreements between part A and part B, anyone with a bit of knowledge regarding law, knows that a third party is not liable to any agrements between part 1 and part 2, in short theres no way Mr. Herminator got any case against anyone here, and if its true that he went so far as to haras RNoN in a Battle, http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12664-we-wish-too-complain-about-herminator-and-others-for-griefing/?hl=rnon he should be the one sanctioned, and if the Admins as stated dosn´t have sufficient proof, he should as a minimum receive a very serious warning, that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, and if ever proven, he will wake up in a Pirate port, with a branded  P on hes wrist. No one made Mr. Herminator a envoy of the Danish King.

 

This whole story looks to me like a feeble attempt from a big clan to force smaller clans into submission, and instead of going to the negotiation table with open arms and minds, asking the small clan what can we do to help you having fun, it seems to the approach was dictator worthy, we dictate to you what you are allowed to do, get in line or we will bonk you back to the stone age, you can not attack A, you will not sell to B, stay the F... out of our way, capiche compadres!!!  and when the small clan then turned around and said h..l no, individuals started ranting at them, and haras them in battle, instead of growing a pair, and get over it.

 

I think theres still a chance to save this, but maybe Herminators clan should send a different envoy RNoN´s way, with a bit more sence, and properly a bit more mature, to try to negotiate an agreement for mutual benefits.

 

Last thing the Devs should do is allow big clans to be able to vote smaller clans to pirate waters, or allow clan battles within nations without both parties concent, that would mean 50% of the players would either be Pirates or forced into submission, if I was part of a clan that was outcasted to Piracy based on some kid´s whining, not having broken any rules, regulations or game mechanics, I would leave the game and demand my money back...

 

Was a bit more then 5cents

 

Good wind to ya all

Niels Juel.

 

Edit:

Edit of reference to real life people - Mod team

[Quineloe]

Just to fill in something that everyone seems to be missing out on.

Instead of focusing on the person/character Herminator, keep in mind that he is not the leader of a Denmark-Norway nation, nor the clan RDNN.

The leader of RDNN is Helgur. I do however as a representative of RDNN have a seat in our council consisting of most major clans. A seat was also offered to RNoN, but they refused since we did not want to support their attacks on Sweden.

My role in this council is spokesperson/foreign minister. Not in any case am I a souvereign leader, and I have never even said I were. There seems to be some that are not aware of this.

So by me starting this thread, it was as the spokesperson of this council and agreed upon by all present, not necessarily me as a player........

 

So they flat out told you they don't want any part in your council.

 

You have less and less of a case

[Teigen]

Fellow Captains.

 

  Just to give my 5 cents or more.

In my opinion, when someone from a nation example Denmark-Norway clan A makes a peace treaty with said Sweden clan B, that is NOT a peace treaty between Nation Denmark-Norway and Nation Sweden, thats a none aggression pact between said clan A and clan B, anyone from other clans within those two Nations are in no way bound by agreements between part A and part B, anyone with a bit of knowledge regarding law, knows that a third party is not liable to any agrements between part 1 and part 2, in short theres no way Mr. Herminator got any case against anyone here, and if its true that he went so far as to haras RNoN in a Battle, http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12664-we-wish-too-complain-about-herminator-and-others-for-griefing/?hl=rnon he should be the one sanctioned, and if the Admins as stated dosn´t have sufficient proof, he should as a minimum receive a very serious warning, that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, and if ever proven, he will wake up in a Pirate port, with a branded  P on hes wrist. No one made Mr. Herminator a envoy of the Danish King.

 

This whole story looks to me like a feeble attempt from a big clan to force smaller clans into submission, and instead of going to the negotiation table with open arms and minds, asking the small clan what can we do to help you having fun, it seems to the approach was dictator worthy, we dictate to you what you are allowed to do, get in line or we will bonk you back to the stone age, you can not attack A, you will not sell to B, stay the F... out of our way, capiche compadres!!!  and when the small clan then turned around and said h..l no, individuals started ranting at them, and haras them in battle, instead of growing a pair, and get over it.

 

I think theres still a chance to save this, but maybe Herminators clan should send a different envoy RNoN´s way, with a bit more sence, and properly a bit more mature, to try to negotiate an agreement for mutual benefits.

 

Last thing the Devs should do is allow big clans to be able to vote smaller clans to pirate waters, or allow clan battles within nations without both parties concent, that would mean 50% of the players would either be Pirates or forced into submission, if I was part of a clan that was outcasted to Piracy based on some kid´s whining, not having broken any rules, regulations or game mechanics, I would leave the game and demand my money back...

 

Was a bit more then 5cents

 

Good wind to ya all

Niels Juel.

 

Edit:

Edit of reference to real life people - Mod team

 

i think i speak for all of my fellow RNoN members that we all felt from the beginning that we were forced into something that a bigger clan had made, we came in as a small clan turning bigger and wanting to do more, but we still felt all the time let down and annoyed, everything we were told caused even more unclear situation, you just dont go to a clan saying this is allowed then when they do that you come and say oh no this isnt allowet anyway, me myself would not recognize RDNN and their allied clans as the council due to they acted and as i feel took that spot and i think im not even the only one, as for now its nothing that can be called counsil since there are no mechanics for diplomacy and none that can be handle it and force it out.

[chappy]

VDD  - DanishNorge Clan does not agree with or condone this thread or OP. 

 

Furthermore on a personal level i would like to say that the OP and anyone that encouraged him to place this thread, supported him or agrees with his sentiment should be ashamed of themselves for daring to try and dictate the play of another player or clan in an open world pvp game where that group have followed the in game mechanics legitimately.

This is a despicable attempt to discredit a group who are simply playing the game as they wish to play it.

No agreement was made between  the 2 nations as there is no way for the 2 nations to make such agreement in the game

The only agreement that exists is between those clans from both sides that voluntarily submitted to such an agreement. Those clans make up only a certain % of the populations of each nation. I would suggest it is closer to 50% than any outright majority as well, as the silent many simply dont pay attention or speak up or get involved.

[Samuel Smith]

The cautionary tale of Captain Dirty

 

This discussion is very general and seems to be abut the right play the game as you see fit. What if it is not about clans an nations? 

 

What if it is about the ambitions of one single individual, who thinks he will be happy if he has power in a little computer world where people amuse themselves fighting with ships made of bits?

 

Admitted it seems quite idiotic use a lot of time, just to have wear the big I-am-the-king-of-this-soon-wiped-map sombrero. But I think you all know that this kind of thinking exist in MMOs.

 

There are lots of ways to become Lord of the Bits. Lets focus on two: One clean, one dirty.

If you are Captain Clean and an officer, you are willing to work for the people playing the game. You try to listen to the people in your faction, clan, alliance, guild or whatever, you try to make an informed descision based on what you hear. Being CaptClean is a lot of work, because in order to decide what "we" are doing, you have got to talk to many people, solve many disagreements and sometimes neglect your own account/character to balance things.

If in the other hand you are Captain Dirty, and the purpose of the game is to feel the rush of self-satisfaction as you command the bits. Being CapDirty is also a lot of work, but the focus of the game is not hearing the other players opinions, but rather to position yourself as lord of the bits.

How can you tell the difference between CaptClean and CapDirty?

1. CaptClean will try to hear a lot of opinions and try to find a compromise. CapDirty will make ultimatums like: "If you don´t do as I say, I will screw things up for you".

2. CaptClean will try to be consistent and refer to a common ground. CapDirty is always your best friend when you talk to him telling you: "You are a good guy". But when you are not there he will tell other people that they are the good guys and that you are an asshat (or even project his own thirst for power over the bits to you).

 

1. Is easily detectable: Playing chicken to destroy what other people have used a lot of time building up makes everyone see the birdy. 2) Is also easily detectable over time. If captX sometimes talks unfavorably about someone, and then changes his mind for no other reason that he needs something from that person to enhance his own power or plain: people telling you of back talking:

I must admit that most leaders are somewhere between capt Clean and capDirty. But as a mere player of the game you are better of with people that are more like captClean and less like captDirty.

Do we have a captDirty in the mix in den/nor on PvP1?

MO:

Start on pvp3

Find a clan.

Tell everyone that wants to listen in that clan that the leader of the clan is powerhungry and that the diplomacy he has made is bad

Get a number of your friends into the clan and let them write in the national chat that the deals negotiated by the biggest clans are made by powerhungry leaders and no god for the nation.

You then arrange a meeting with all the leaders of the different clans in your faction on pvp3, with the other officers and the leader of your own clan (the biggest in the nation)

Then you decide that the deals originally made is OK, that they are sound (probably because the other leaders could see the reason)...but it matters less that the deal you were so against is now good, because it is you sitting at the end of the table?

Your old clan moves to pvp1 partly because the strife you caused in the nation (or let other cause?) but mostly because the population of the server was very low and it was hard to find PvP.....

One week to ten days later you decide to change servers....and since then you have flattered, backtalked, made ultimatums, said you were sorry a number of times (how many times should we believe in your sincerity?)

This story is just a perspective.....but I think the story is less about clans, and disagerment about who attacks which flag, and more about who calls the shots: Captain Clean or CapDirty.

(Disclaimer: I know that the case of rNON seems to be linked to the story of DRUNK. I don´t know much about DRUNK except they took my ship south of Jacmel....so this perspective is perhaps only applicable to NON and not to DRUNK) 

 

And next time: Find someone else to suck up to. I have no vote.

 

so Herminator is Captain DIrty? if im not mistaken?

[Kloothommel]

so Herminator is Captain DIrty? if im not mistaken?

Thus speaketh the troll!

All laugh or be insulted!

[Samuel Smith]

i feel that this is a good depiction of what have happened. and you all know what happens to jofferey.