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Current patch destroyed a lot of trade due to a major increase of supplies.. and caused a great decrease in a lot of prices.

 

If you could lower NPC production output by at least 50% I think it would be a good start.

 

 

I also invested in 4 live oak log camps.. 50 per day each.. total of 200 per day..

 

It cost me around 210,000 gold to build each camp including level 3 upgrades. (x4 equals to 840,000 gold in capital spending).

If I were to sell all 200 everyday in my capital's market through contract for approximately 200 each.. I would make 40,000 every 24 hours. It will take me at least 21 days / 3 weeks or more to get my return on investment.. which is quite slow.

 

Would be nice if you could increase the outcome of the production of all buildings and drastically decrease NPC production until eventually more players have their own productions.

The thing with this is not everyone is building building or has the money to reach lvl3  so people will still be looking for mats... and mats produced from building are way cheaper then the market price.   the way you worded this was you dont like the market producing so much but you would like your goods production increase...essentially you want it for your self rather then it being available to the public.

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I don't know, this port xp mechanic feels weird to me where the port upgrades itself with random resource orders. I think that labour hours should be tied with the city's population and not with the abudance of materials or the amount of port demand missions fullfiled but with the amount of bussineses in the city and possibly the amount of workers(settler families brought from the old world) needed to run them. From there you let it run by itself and that's the point of a free economy. There is no need of implementing a mechanic where it will forcefully upgrade a port imho

 

And yes i feel that there should be a certain demand of certain goods on each city depending on its size  but not as big as in the port demand missions. If port demand missions run 24/7 on every port on the map that means that players will have a very easy source of gold at a fixed price making the currency in the long run worthless. Ports shouldn't accept huge amount of goods at the same price all the time. Prices should go up and down on goods always based on demand and if you're worried that demand will eventually be low on every city this could be solved with maybe adding random events which will lead into the increase of the demand and the price of a good(or many other ways).

 

Also port defences should be really costly meaning that it will need nationwide collaboration to improve it. After all it was a big investement in real life as well which eventually is another currency and goods sink to make sure hyperinflation will stay away

Edited by Sella22
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Some of the thoughts for the start.

 

  • Labor hours - should become a resource tied not to account, but to a city owned by a nation. Small cities generate smaller amount of labor hours, large cities generate more. If your nation is underpopulated by players they will have A LOT of free labor hours. Large nations will have to spread out. 
  • Commonly available resources - some resources should be available almost anywhere. If you have fertile soil and rain you should be able to grow hemp everywhere. Same with stone. Some islands will be more suitable for planting. If you have mountains you can get stone.
  • Uncommon resources like iron silver etc could stay like it is right now. Squares could be made smaller allowing smaller nations some breathing room.

 

Good Idea Quineloe.......about having the resources of a port make some sense, synergy you called it.

 

Regarding labour (or crafting ) hours.

Building up a port so that it becomes a center for crafting, shipbuilding, buying and selling is a great idea.

And using port improvements to increase labor hours available to everyone crafting in that port is also a great idea.

 

I still think each player should also have their own bank of hours that is augmented or amplified by the port improvements.

That bank of hours could be as it is now ......in one lump sum or stored separately in each building.

 

But the important thing here is to make it worthwhile for a player to want to specialize in crafting or shipbuilding by allowing the opportunity

to have a lot more labour hours and efficiency than someone who just crafts part time as a side line.

Because let's face it........most players will want to do something else besides econ.

 

In PotBS it just took a small percentage of dedicated crafters and shipbuilders to make a huge impact on the economy.

They became very good at it and helped maintain a stable supply of everything needed in the game including ships.

And I was part of that.

This also helps pull a nation together, players begin to recognise who does what.

Whether it's leading port battles, running ports, leading clans, building ships or what I did........supplying oak logs and oak products to shipbuilders.

Lot's and lot's of oak..........lol.

And I made millions doing it.

 

But you need an economic system that allows you to succeed.........which we don't really have right now.

Edited by Bert Beard

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With a game where the map of conquest can change on a dime. having any investment in a port would be a risk. There needs to be a way where you can cap ports but in a way not risk the loss of your production building. Because who would want to start over if they lose their lvl 3 Shipyard (1.3mill gold).

 

One way to eliminate this risk of loss is you have production on it own tab at any port you visit if you have and out post there.

 

  • You still have to invest money, time, and labor. Think of it as a company you started in game.
  • From this tab you build you five buildings. If you build a shipyard that means you can build ships at any outpost you have at a port but it is still based on the lvl of ship yard you have.
  • Make the conquest ports valuable in a way where it can help your production buildings. Say the more developed outpost you have at a port the more buffs it give to your production tab.
  • You still have outposts and these outpost are the only places you can pick up the good from the production tab.
  • New mission/request help develop an out post.... For example:  Sink or capture any 3 enemy players and x reward is given to help your ports. Capture this trade ship and such...
  • The more you develop your Production/company the better its for you. Besides just Mats being made, there are other things like cheaper repair costs at ports  Faster labor Regen. Faster production of X resource The sky Sea is the limit.
  • Give Unique Traits to Ports to make them worth while to capture that buff your production tab.

This is just an ideal to help.

Edited by Capt. Rice
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I like the direction this thread is heading........some good ideas.

 

However, I'm not sure about port populations driving the economy of a port.

 

Are we talking about the players using the port which would increase the economy all on it's own as more players used it.

 

Or are we talking about an artificial number of npc's that might represent the population of that port back in the 18th century ?

or maybe something else ?

 

 

 

Anyways.........I think this is becoming the most important thread on improving the economy of Naval Action.

Edited by Bert Beard

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Hello Captains. This is a discussion regarding resources placement.

 

Right now the system is pretty basic - all map is split into equal squares and every square randomly seeds all resources across ports located in that square. The goal of the system is to provide all resources within 1 hour of sailing (within a square).

 

Initially we wanted to borrow SWG mechanics where some resources are mineable and could end forcing nations to fight for other ports. But this idea was discarded because it can cause a lot of problems and instability. 

 

We are looking for ideas on how to improve the system.

 

Some of the thoughts for the start.

 

  • Labor hours - should become a resource tied not to account, but to a city owned by a nation. Small cities generate smaller amount of labor hours, large cities generate more. If your nation is underpopulated by players they will have A LOT of free labor hours. Large nations will have to spread out. 

 

 

This is not an "improvement" in my opinion, as it appears at first glance to be another slippery slope mechanic.

 

Lose a town, lose national production laybor. 

 

If your in a small nation, and your nation has few ports besides the capital, your nation now gets even further squeezed as another critical resource gets reduced.

 

Terrific!!

 

Please stop looking at the winning nations and how they are working and how much fun that is, look at what is happening to losing nations. 

The pain of being in a losing nation is already bad enough, cutting even more resources as you lose (laybor) is not the answer. You should be spending at least as much time thinking about the losing experience as the winning one. 

 

Remember just because that nation has to share it's resources, it will always have MORE as an aggregate based on this system. Add into the mix the fact that many of the laybor hours in a small nation will be required to extract resources or pay the Euro traders and spike inflation, and you have winning nations gaining and even greater strangle hold on the small nations.

 

For the love of your losing customers, if you are trying to build a perpetual world that doesn't require a reset every couple of months, please stop adding in even more slippery slope mechanics until you have put in a few perpetual comeback ones.  

 

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/slippery-slope-and-perpetual-comeback

 

Thanks.

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This is not an "improvement" in my opinion, as it appears at first glance to be another slippery slope mechanic.

 

Lose a town, lose national production laybor. 

 

If your in a small nation, and your nation has few ports besides the capital, your nation now gets even further squeezed as another critical resource gets reduced.

 

Terrific!!

 

Please stop looking at the winning nations and how they are working and how much fun that is, look at what is happening to losing nations. 

The pain of being in a losing nation is already bad enough, cutting even more resources as you lose (laybor) is not the answer. You should be spending at least as much time thinking about the losing experience as the winning one. 

 

Remember just because that nation has to share it's resources, it will always have MORE as an aggregate based on this system. Add into the mix the fact that many of the laybor hours in a small nation will be required to extract resources or pay the Euro traders and spike inflation, and you have winning nations gaining and even greater strangle hold on the small nations.

 

For the love of your losing customers, if you are trying to build a perpetual world that doesn't require a reset every couple of months, please stop adding in even more slippery slope mechanics until you have put in a few perpetual comeback ones.  

 

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/slippery-slope-and-perpetual-comeback

 

Thanks.

 

Krakken, I agree with your concerns.

It's been discussed and I also brought it up that a nation's capital would be the first and most important part of this system........I call ports that are used for this new system "hubs"

So that even a small nation can have one "hub" that can not be captured and will see the full effect of this system Wind proposed.

 

Once a larger nation expands beyond the first "hub" then there is some risk involved...........rvr takes over.

Edited by Bert Beard

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I like the direction this thread is heading........some good ideas.

 

However, I'm not sure about port populations driving the economy of a port.

 

Are we talking about the players using the port which would increase the economy all on it's own as more players used it.

 

Or are we talking about an artificial number of npc's that might represent the population of that port back in the 18th century ?

or maybe something else ?

 

 

 

Anyways.........I think this is becoming the most important thread on improving the economy of Naval Action.

 

 

Well since player create buildings in every city those buildings need workers which eventually leads to an increase of the daily consumption of certain goods meaning its actually player driven. Also the goods that players produce through production buildings will mostly be for ship construction which is currently the core of the economy. So the port demand can actually make you an extra buck or more and also makes sure that some resources are removed from the game.

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Krakken, I agree with your concerns.

It's been discussed and I also brought it up that a nation's capital would be the first and most important part of this system........I call ports that are used for this new system "hubs"

So that even a small nation can have one "hub" that can not be captured and will see the full effect of this system Wind proposed.

 

Once a larger nation expands beyond the first "hub" then there is some risk involved...........rvr takes over.

definitely need to be a system that still helps nation with no ports...

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Ok going to put my two cents in.

 

I like the population idea and I don't like it as well. Especially if people are allowed to upgrade and increase the population thus increasing the Labor hours. Here is why, say clan A moves away from the capital and develops a new area, defends it, and causes it to prosper, lots of labor hours and everything. So some randoms find out about this good area and move into the area in larger and larger numbers. Now they have over populated the area and Clan A's investment is all for naught since they are now receiving a small and smaller amount of labor hours for their large amount of investment.

 

 

How about instead you tie the labor hours to the structure itself and limit the number of structures based on the development of the colony. That way if Clan A moves to an area and creates a lot of prosperity and turns the area into a capital of commerce they will not lose out on their investment once randoms see the prosperity and start moving into the area. It will infact continue to add to the prosperity of the region as more people come in and keep pumping the colonies and keep adding new building slots. All while Clan A continues to enjoy the prosperity they have created instead of making them resentful that people have moved into the area and are taking away their labor hours.

Edited by LordSitruc

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Ok going to put my two cents in.

 

I like the population idea and I don't like it as well. Especially if people are allowed to upgrade and increase the population thus increasing the Labor hours. Here is why, say clan A moves away from the capital and develops a new area, defends it, and causes it to prosper, lots of labor hours and everything. So some randoms find out about this good area and move into the area in larger and larger numbers. Now they have over populated the area and Clan A's investment is all for naught since they are now receiving a small and smaller amount of labor hours for their large amount of investment.

 

 

How about instead you tie the labor hours to the structure itself and limit the number of structures based on the development of the colony. That way if Clan A moves to an area and creates a lot of prosperity and turns the area into a capital of commerce they will not lose out on their investment once randoms see the prosperity and start moving into the area. It will infact continue to add to the prosperity of the region as more people come in and keep pumping the colonies and keep adding new building slots. All while Clan A continues to enjoy the prosperity they have created instead of making them resentful that people have moved into the area and are taking away their labor hours.

I like this its kinda like a player built city in a way and those who contributed also get the rewards...

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Ok going to put my two cents in.

 

I like the population Idea for points and I don't like it as well. Especially if people are allowed to upgrade and increase the population thus increasing the Labor hours. Here is why, say clan A moves away from the capital and develops a new area, defends it, and causes it to prosper, lots of labor hours and everything. So some randoms find out about this good area and move into the area in larger and larger numbers. Now they have over populated the area and Clan A's investment is all for naught since they are now receiving a small and smaller amount of labor hours for their large amount of investment.

 

 

How about instead you tie the labor hours to the structure itself and limit the number of structures based on the development of the colony. That way if Clan A moves to an area and creates a lot of prosperity and turns the area into a capital of commerce they will not lose out on their investment once randoms see the prosperity and start moving into the area. It will infact continue to add to the prosperity of the region as more people come in and keep pumping the colonies and keep adding new building slots. All while Clan A continues to enjoy the prosperity they have created instead of making them resentful that people have moved into the area and are taking away their labor hours.

 

It's user pays

You use the taxes from the stuff you make in that port to pay for the improvements and defenses.

 

In PotBS the port had a governor and he used those taxes to pay for improvements.

I was one of those governors.

I determined where the money went for improvements......maybe a little got diverted into my pocket and if I needed a little more.....raise the taxes.... but hey......I deserved it.

 

Just kidding guys......but taxes on the things produced in the port is a good way to pay for it.

Edited by Bert Beard

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When i said labour hours should be tied to the population i meant the total amount of workers a player is employing and not the total population.My bad for not being so clear.

 

On the other hand yes.The above would be the same as tying the labour hours to the production building.If it has less than the ideal number of workers working in it then you get less labour hours.

Edited by Sella22

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Loss of production buildings would be more acceptable if the Conquest system was a little more measured. When we rolled back the pirates, we did it in mostly about 3 days, at about 5 ports per night (I think one day we took 7 ports?). The Conquest map shouldn't change that quickly overnight. Long term, the process of taking a port should be a multi-day, multi-stage event that therefore has some predictability and ability to push back against it.

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Well since player create buildings in every city those buildings need workers which eventually leads to an increase of the daily consumption of certain goods meaning its actually player driven. Also the goods that players produce through production buildings will mostly be for ship construction which is currently the core of the economy. So the port demand can actually make you an extra buck or more and also makes sure that some resources are removed from the game.

 

Now there is a something solid here "increase of the daily consumption of certain goods".

 

Add in for a building type the ability to supply/trade not just hours, but "certain goods" improve the efficiency of the use of labor hours.  Those goods being the types of goods not actually used in production.

 

For example, provide rum to your silver miners, and for every 1 rum you can extract an extra silver for the same labor and cost as previously, up to a certain ratio.

 

This way you can spend gold to buy goods to improve the efficiency of your labor hours without actually getting any more, and drive up demand for items who' s normal demand is currently just the consumption of the ports.

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Now there is a something solid here "increase of the daily consumption of certain goods".

 

Add in for a building type the ability to supply/trade not just hours, but "certain goods" improve the efficiency of the use of labor hours.  Those goods being the types of goods not actually used in production.

 

For example, provide rum to your silver miners, and for every 1 rum you can extract an extra silver for the same labor and cost as previously, up to a certain ratio.

 

This way you can spend gold to buy goods to improve the efficiency of your labor hours without actually getting any more, and drive up demand for items who' s normal demand is currently just the consumption of the ports.

 

 

It could be more than one good needed to provide a boost. It would also be possible to need goods to mantain the workforce rather than pay an upkeep in gold. I mean the goods that need to be consumed should't neccesarily provide a boost but that would be a motive to produce them or buy them.

Edited by Sella22

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Krakken, I agree with your concerns.

It's been discussed and I also brought it up that a nation's capital would be the first and most important part of this system........I call ports that are used for this new system "hubs"

So that even a small nation can have one "hub" that can not be captured and will see the full effect of this system Wind proposed.

 

Once a larger nation expands beyond the first "hub" then there is some risk involved...........rvr takes over.

 

I would not be opposed if a nation had a buffer/curve on both sides of the equation.  

 

For example the capital city was all that was required to produce X hours. These hours remain unchanged for the first 10 cities captured or certain minimum hours gained (Buffer). Gaining the next 10 cities also gains their output (hours X 2 cap), but after that point any other city gained adds nothing and in fact causes a reduction in available hours due to bureaucracy over load (- half the city hours value).

 

So it would look something like this.

 

0-10 cities (42hr/hr) (hr/hr is kinda a weird way to say this <shrug>)

10-20 cities (42-84)

20-40 cities (84-42)

40+ cities (42)

 

That sort of system would provide for a bell curve, reward for a nation for being aggressive and taking a bit more than it's fair share, force them to focus on strategic captures (cites with the best hr/day production) rather than just blobbing the entire map, and give a baseline to all nations that is buffered against being squeezed too hard.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Then if hauling is going to be a big part of the economy give people an incentive to do it. A strong one. Plus a way to keep the occupied while doing it.

 

I'll keep you occupied while you're doing it, with my Privateer, coming after your booty!!

 

Just stop teleporting and I'll be more than happy to oblige :)

 

EDIT: Serious talk, though - I think some sort of autopilot option for trade ships (you set a destination port, and an NPC sails the ship there) would be far preferable to the current teleport system. It alleviates the need for someone to manually sail a trade ship to port while still allowing the at least remote possibility of the ship being intercepted by someone like me, who loves to hunt player traders.

Edited by surfimp

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Another idea along with the redistributing of resources.

 

Why not give each nation a home block.  By this I mean block of 4 cities that always belongs to the nation and are right near each other with about an hour sailing time from one end to the other.  This 4 cities would have a mix of resources that covers all the items needed for ship building.  This block of ports means that a nation would always be able to build ships and have a small area that is safer because the ports will never change hands.  For the safety of the port never changing hands, make all production buildings less effective there.  If a building makes 100 fir logs a day, then in those ports maybe it only makes 60 fir logs a day.  Make it a flat % of normal output rounded down.  The reduced production will make people want to spread out but at the same time it does leave them a safe fall back area in case things go horribly wrong for them.

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In my World Resource Deposits post, I argued that resources should be placed regionally, rather than uniformly or randomly. Meaning that certain regions would have more of a certain resource than others. For example, the Northwestern Coast of USA would have a number of ports with the ability to grow Tobacco. This wouldn't mean it was the only place on the map, but rather the one with the most concentration of this.

 

The reasons that I believe this will help facilitate trans-map trade. While a single player may not personally take the load of tobacco from Charleston to Barbados, it will still get there by changing hands. This means more movement and more trade traffic. 

 

 

As far as common and uncommon resources, I believe this is a good idea: crops like corn, wheat, etc. could be farmed anywhere, but cash crops like tobacco and sugar should be limited to specific regions or a number of regions. The same with minerals. Stone could be common as you said, but Gold could be abundant in South America and Mexico. 

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I like many of the ideas in this thread but I think we all know that major changes are a lot of work for the developers.

And so that takes a while.

What we need right away are some improvements that are quick and easy.

 

These are my suggestions, I'll start with the simplest ones first that I think will give the most benefit to the economy.

 

-  Decrease the taxes for selling stuff.

   Right now I believe it's 10% for selling ships and 5% for selling materials.......this is too high.

   If you want to slow an economy down one of the most effective ways is to raise taxes, Paying about 1/3 of your profit from selling a ship in taxes is crazy.

   Please bring down those taxes, at least cut them in half but in truth they should be 1% - 2% for both ships and materials.

 

-  Increase the amount of labour hours.......both in the storage and in the amount you get per hour, 50% sounds about right or maybe more.

   This is needed for shipbuilding and crafting notes so you only need this for shipbuilders.

   A better way perhaps is instead of just adding to the total we all get........ is to add a feature that a player who really needs the extra hours can buy and improve.

   How much extra work would that be for the dev's ?

 

-  we need a more efficient way to transport stuff over long distances.

   This talk of spreading out farther to collect resources sounds great but who wants to spend a lot more time hauling.......yea, that's what I thought.

   The simplest way is to increase the number of times you can teleport and make it so you can do that with your ship between not only your capital but your outposts too.

   Don't want the Star Trek solution.......then how hard would it be to set up an Instant Delivery Service between outposts or the capital.......call it IDS, kinda sounds like UPS.

   For a fee.......maybe charged based on the per unit of cargo volume.......maybe 1 gold per unit or if that doesn't work then so much gold per 100.

   Set the fee so it's not worth it for full loads over shorter distances but it is when your having to sail for over an hour.........even less would be better, like 1/2 an hour

 

-  We need a trade channel, make it a part of the nation chat window and it should be in nation trade chat.......not global.

   That way we can efficiently send trade information back and forth without competing in nation chat with the size of someone's dick.

 

I'm sure I've left at least a couple things out.

Any other ideas that are easy so we might get them in a mini patch soon ?

Edited by Bert Beard

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One idea is to have growing and shrinking city populations. Port towns slowly increase their population (and labor hour contribution), but when a port is captured the population takes a hit.  Big incentive to try and hold onto big towns, longer. Big incentive to protect towns.

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But more importantly, trade HAS to be spread around the map.  Right now the only fun to be had is killing AI ships and capping AI traders. Player trading is only going to decline from this point forward. Not good.

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If you give everyone everything they need then the demand for conquest goes down. Cheap goods sounds good but no one is going to haul for peanuts. Which means less goods moved on the OW. A blander experience. Catering to entitlement minded casuals will ruin your game.

 

Let players fight for resources. Let them make tons of money taking the risks. Let them endure the pain of failure. To do otherwise is to develop what will be a mediocre game.

 

Ship combat excluded. No matter what that part is AAA.

Edited by Sea Nettle

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