Abuse of flag mechanics 2 - decision needed

[Musuko42]

I think the punishment format should be followed or delete it from the rules thread.

 

1^st  offence – warning

2^nd  offence – 2 day pre-moderation

3^rd  offence – 2 suspension

4^th offence– 7 day suspension

5^th offence or more – 14 day suspension

 

This exploit annoyed at least thirty active players when it happened. You want to allow each exploiter the chance to do this five times before any permanent punishment is considered?

 

As I've said before, it doesn't really matter if there was a specific written rule broken or not. What matters is that the actions of a few made the game less fun for a larger number of players. If you're having a friendly game of football with some friends and one person is being a dick and spoiling the fun for everyone else, you don't scour the rulebook for some technicality; you ask them to leave. Because if you don't, and they carry on being a dick, then everyone else will probably end up leaving, and you won't have anyone left to play with.

[Johny Reb]

My interpretation of this is that because it wasn't for "personal" gain then he should be treated more lightly?

 

If that is the case I wholeheartedly disagree. Damage farming was an exploit for personal gain which on an individual case level has minimal impact on everyone else. This was a pre-meditated and organised attempt to completely deprive an entire nation of the ability to attack a port for that day. Whilst he personally didn't gain much from it the impact of the action was far further reaching into the playerbase. But ultimately it is arguing semantics, the dev's likely have what they want by now.

No, that is not my point at all. My main point is that its making up rules as we go. I believe in punishing people harshly for only those rules that are clearly defined. Our testing of the early mechanics allow us or rather the devs to create the rules that matter most to the community. "Exploit" is a very fungible word. One persons exploit is not another's. Rules on the other hand are black and white. I'm not for banning an account because someone offended our sense of right and wrong when there was no rule defining the action as not allowed.

 

The Pavel case is the perfect example. The duplicating of Pavels by attacking ships in reinforcement zones spawning endless NPC Pavels for capture was viewed by the majority of the community as an exploit yet at Tribunal the devs said the mechanic was working as intended and nothing happened to the players. In the case we are discussing today the same thing could have happened. It didn't. Instead the devs deferred to us which is telling. It means they don't know for sure if it should be considered an exploit or "as designed". With such a grey area we shouldn't be advocating for the banning of someone's account. We should use it as a tool to create a well designed rule that can be used in future more harsh punishments.

 

So, essentially, he didn't break a rule. What he did wrong was not report a discovered possible exploit which is a minor offense unless he did it over and over and over again. As far as the report here goes, he has only done it once. The reasonable, scale-able response is to create a rule, warn him of the infraction according to the admins punishment steps, and wait to see if he does it again. In the mean time we will have a rule that can be used to punish new offenders more harshly. The rule can include that punishment.

 

This exploit annoyed at least thirty active players when it happened. You want to allow each exploiter the chance to do this five times before any permanent punishment is considered?

 

As I've said before, it doesn't really matter if there was a specific written rule broken or not. What matters is that the actions of a few made the game less fun for a larger number of players. If you're having a friendly game of football with some friends and one person is being a dick and spoiling the fun for everyone else, you don't scour the rulebook for some technicality; you ask them to leave. Because if you don't, and they carry on being a dick, then everyone else will probably end up leaving, and you won't have anyone left to play with.

It sounds like it annoyed a lot more than 30 players by looking at the thread. If you want my full opinion, I think that the punishment steps should be reformed because they are almost never followed, making them next to meaningless. I think they were also created during a time when the major problem was chat or forum offenses and not with an eye to exploits.

In my opinion, rules matter most of the time. Their are times that exploits are extremely obvious and damaging. The money exploit that caused an instant shut down of the servers a month or so ago that allowed an unlimited duplication of your gold. If that had been used and not reported than it would be an obvious case of cheating needing no steps to punish. This case is slightly different, even if the majority, including me, doesn't like what this guy did. We are allowed to have multiple accounts. We are allowed to make our second account a different nation. We are allowed to pull flags with that account. We are allowed to pull flags on ports that we don't plan on attacking. Each step of what this guy did was allowed according to the game rules. Is it an exploit or just a dastardly thing to do? That is up to the admins to decide. They chose to defer to us. That means it is a grey area.

 

As much as I don't approve of what this fella did and I hope we can propose a rule to prevent it in the future I think a ban is to harsh if its more than a day or two and thats simply because he didn't report it.

[Slamz]

1^st  offence – warning

2^nd  offence – 2 day pre-moderation

3^rd  offence – 2 suspension

 

 

So.....a nation of 2000 players can, in total, create an alt on another team, block the flag and troll everyone 6000 times before any one of them gets anything worse than a 2-day suspension?

 

Warnings are for things that are very mildly disruptive. If you bombard the enemy with expletives and get reported, maybe that's a warning. You didn't really wreck the game, you just said bad words in chat, here's your slap on the wrist.

 

If you blatantly grief your own team to stop a bunch of people from doing something that might have entertained all of them for the next 90 minutes, then you get a lot more than just a warning. That's pretty close to permanent banhammer time in my book.

 

 

 

To contrast, this is like showing up to the local football game and stealing all the balls, thus ruining the entire night of gaming for everyone. They aren't going to just say, "Oh, you! This is your first warning! Next time you're going to get a talking to!"

 

They're going to tell you to gtfo and they'll call the cops for trespassing charges if they ever see you there again.

[Johny Reb]

I propose the following rule:

 

Pulling a port flag for the purpose of preventing your nation from attacking a port by sitting on the flag or by not attempting to deliver it is prohibited.

A player guilty of this infraction will pay in the following way.

 

 

Your suggestions?

[Johny Reb]

So.....a nation of 2000 players can, in total, create an alt on another team, block the flag and troll everyone 6000 times before any one of them gets anything worse than a 2-day suspension?

 

Warnings are for things that are very mildly disruptive. If you bombard the enemy with expletives and get reported, maybe that's a warning. You didn't really wreck the game, you just said bad words in chat, here's your slap on the wrist.

 

If you blatantly grief your own team to stop a bunch of people from doing something that might have entertained all of them for the next 90 minutes, then you get a lot more than just a warning. That's pretty close to permanent banhammer time in my book.

 

 

 

To contrast, this is like showing up to the local football game and stealing all the balls, thus ruining the entire night of gaming for everyone. They aren't going to just say, "Oh, you! This is your first warning! Next time you're going to get a talking to!"

 

They're going to tell you to gtfo and they'll call the cops for trespassing charges if they ever see you there again.

You should read my post, friend. I said in the last one that I think the punishment list should be revamped. Either way, it is the punishment list and I didn't make it. If you don't like the list you should complain to the admins. I simply am saying that a player should be "banned" only for things that have already been judged as an exploit not by rules that are made up as we go.

[Prater]

Follow the IP if possible back to the main accounts.  If the alts have unique IP, follow the trade trail.  Who sent them money?
 
While there might not be a rule against this specifically, Salmz is right.  The intent was to break the game.  After the 1st week of Sea Trials Naval Action was shut down for a week because people were exploiting the battle mechanic and damage farming.  XP was basically reset for the worst offenders.  Damage farming wasn't technically illegal then.  While this exploit might not be technically illegal, at heart it is definitely against the rules, game breaking, and definitely carried out with malicious purpose.  Did they send a bug report?  No?  Then it was done with malicious purpose.  The people involved need some kind of punishment.  A complete wipe is probably too punitive, but they are deserving at least a partial reset.  Unless they admit to it on the forums and apologize.  Then the punishment can be more lenient.
 
Make a rule that in the future anyone caught doing so will experience a complete account reset for all of their accounts.

 

Otherwise, going on with this "ban, ban them all" style, you will convince me and others about the fact that all this "scandal" is just another case of metagame propaganda of a national faction against another!

 

It has nothing to do with nations.  You appear to be the one trying to turn it into something to do with nations.  I don't care if those guilty were US, pirate, Spanish, French, etc.  What they did was wrong and they knew it was wrong.

[CaptainYarrr]

Such abuse of the game mechanics should end in atleast 14 days of suspension of the main account behind it. Exploits should never go unpunished, somebody gave money to that alt and that guy should take the full punishment + the guy who bought the flag.

 

I am against the reset of an account, if it happens a second time just ban them permantly from the game. If you just reset that account it might be used for trolling/exploiting somewhere in the future.

[Quineloe]

IMHO, this "exploit", and I find it way too hard to call it that, was a clever use of game mechanics and should not be even punished. 

 

This is where you're wrong. It's flat out in the rules that this type of action is not allowed.

Buying a second account and put a different nation character on it is not "clever" or "use of game mechanics"

 

That is why I still think these two accounts should be banned permanently. They're completely illegitimate from the very start. Logging into the British character in itself was already outside the rules.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Quineloe

[Vandarix]

This is where you're wrong. It's flat out in the rules that this type of action is not allowed.

Buying a second account and put a different nation character on it is not "clever" or "use of game mechanics"

 

That is why I still think these two accounts should be banned permanently. They're completely illegitimate from the very start. Logging into the British character in itself was already outside the rules.

 

Sorry, but buying a flag from the nation a character is on and not using it isn't an exploit. It's something everyone can do. A very dick move but it's not an exploit. The word gets tossed around like candy people don't even understand what it means anymore.

 

What would be an exploit is if he someone found a way to bypass the game mechanics and purchase the flag for free. Deleting ones character and switching nations is something we all can do freely.

 

What this is defined as is more of a "Dick Move" Category. I don't find the offense to warrant a ban nor do I think it warrants punishment. If anything a dev "Open Response" on what is acceptable behavior on the subject as well as an issued warning.

 

Also multiple accounts isn't against the rules either. I've seen dev response on the matter elsewhere but I'm not digging through threads for you, you can do that on your own.

[victor]

Follow the IP if possible back to the main accounts.  If the alts have unique IP, follow the trade trail.  Who sent them money?

 

While there might not be a rule against this specifically, Salmz is right.  The intent was to break the game.  After the 1st week of Sea Trials Naval Action was shut down for a week because people were exploiting the battle mechanic and damage farming.  XP was basically reset for the worst offenders.  Damage farming wasn't technically illegal then.  While this exploit might not be technically illegal, at heart it is definitely against the rules, game breaking, and definitely carried out with malicious purpose.  Did they send a bug report?  No?  Then it was done with malicious purpose.  The people involved need some kind of punishment.  A complete wipe is probably too punitive, but they are deserving at least a partial reset.  Unless they admit to it on the forums and apologize.  Then the punishment can be more lenient.

 

Make a rule that in the future anyone caught doing so will experience a complete account reset for all of their accounts.

 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with nations.  You appear to be the one trying to turn it into something to do with nations.  I don't care if those guilty were US, pirate, Spanish, French, etc.  What they did was wrong and they knew it was wrong.

 

 

@CptEdwardKenway: Thanks for having edited the post

 

@Prater: it's a good thing if before stating things one at least checks the facts about which wants to comment (i.e. if Mr. CptEdwardKenway edited the post eliminating the ironic final reference to Spain, it's quite clear that NOW you wont find any refernce to Spain, no? But form the quote in my post you could read quite clearly that it was right there). So maybe, before make clearly false allegations, read better what people write on the forum!

Edited March 12, 2016 by victor

[Johny Reb]

Im not advocating for leniency for exploiters. I'm arguing for holding people accountable for rules that are set and not made up on the go. Under the philosophy of the above post, we should all have our accounts reset. How many here have used the F11 key to navigate? That surely isn't what the F11 key is for. We are exploiting the system, "'knowingly using game mechanics in a way that was not intended or forseen by the developers, and in such a manner that it gives the person using the exploit an unfair advantage, or diminishes the capability of other players to enjoy the game'.

 

F11, an obvious exploit, has been judged through inaction or silence to be acceptable behavior. A known exploit becomes a game mechanic. Same with the Pavels. What most saw as an exploit was turned into a game mechanic at the judgment of the admin. The damage farming did not result in accounts being banned accept in cases where that is the only way a player leveled. The most egregious damage farmers still play the game unbanned. The admin could still make that decision with this guy. Its not as black and white as you make it sound.

[Prater]

@CptEdwardKenway: Thanks for having edited the post

 

@Prater: it's a good thing if before stating things one at least checks the facts about which wants to comment (i.e. if Mr. CptEdwardKenway edited the post eliminating the ironic final reference to Spain, it's quite clear that NOW you wont find any refernce to Spain, no? But form the quote in my post you could read quite clearly that it was right there). So maybe, before make clearly false allegations, read better what people write on the forum!

 

I didn't make false accusations and I read clearly.  If all reference is deleted, then how am I supposed to know?  I didn't read the conversation as it was taking place.  Nor was I responding to you responding to Edward Kenway.  This is what you said in response to a different person:

 

Otherwise, going on with this "ban, ban them all" style, you will convince me and others about the fact that all this "scandal" is just another case of metagame propaganda of a national faction against another!

 

To which again I say isn't the case.  If the people who carried it out were US, they still deserve punishment.

 

 

@Johny

The difference is malicious intent.  The devs have said what happened was wrong.  They asked for our opinion on what should be done.  And it is clear that they consider it exploiting.  Again, the intent is what should be considered.  If it was malicious and done without bug reporting, then they deserve punishment.  f11 coordinates is hardly exploiting when all it takes is 2 minutes for the devs to take it out and say you can't use it and define it as exploiting.  They've known how people use it, they probably use it that way themselves, and it has been this way for almost a year.  And you can't use f11 specifically against a person or an entire nation.  Pavels was considered farming and duplicating.  It was somewhat quickly removed after it was reported.  Because it was so wide spread and done by almost everybody, the devs just handed out pavel bps for those of us who didnt do it yet were behind.  They even had a thread about it and complained that only a few of us reported it. 

 

 

Sorry, but buying a flag from the nation a character is on and not using it isn't an exploit. It's something everyone can do. A very dick move but it's not an exploit. The word gets tossed around like candy people don't even understand what it means anymore.[/font][/color]

 

 

I think the devs disagree with you there, and I think the vast majority of the population disagrees with you.  If the devs didn't think it was exploiting, there wouldn't be two tribunal topics about it, and this one would be closed.

[Quineloe]

Sorry, but buying a flag from the nation a character is on and not using it isn't an exploit. It's something everyone can do. A very dick move but it's not an exploit. The word gets tossed around like candy people don't even understand what it means anymore.

 

 

Good thing I didn't call it an exploit then.

 

It's cheating.

[MaliceA4Thought]

I am personally a fan of what some other games do (have done) in situations like this...

 

A separate server is set up for the lawless and people who "twist" the rules (I won't use the term exploit here) for their own benefit.  (not just talking this example, but for all examples).

 

If found guilty of either an actual exploit not reported, or of a broad breach of a rule (or mechanic) that by all commonsense is seen as an exploit, or twist, then all accounts belonging to that person are reset to 0 and moved to the separate server with no return and no ability to post on the forums.  Because of the no return, I would actually suggest that this is preceeded by a 14 day ban from the game and forums to allow a cool down but with a close watch being placed on that player subsequently before a perma server move.

 

On that separate server, there is no tribunal, there is no policing..  its a server that just exists for the lawless and has no forum post capability.

 

This does not prevent the player playing the game (after the 14 day ban), but it does put like people together in the game where they can enjoy each others company.

 

Many are arguing about whether this is an exploit and whether leniancy is called for..  I see this as some people arguing that swearing is fine "because every other game doesn't stop it and it's the internet"

 

Sorry not a valid excuse in my mind.   The devs of this game have set standards and are prepared to back them up.  I would think, although I have no proof, that for once, the silent majority is in full agreement with this and is happy to see that this game is NOT prepared to degenerate into another..  oh never mind it's just the internet.

 

Malice

Edited March 13, 2016 by MaliceA4Thought

[Johny Reb]

 @Johny

The difference is malicious intent.  The devs have said what happened was wrong.  They asked for our opinion on what should be done.  And it is clear that they consider it exploiting.  Again, the intent is what should be considered.  If it was malicious and done without bug reporting, then they deserve punishment.  f11 coordinates is hardly exploiting when all it takes is 2 minutes for the devs to take it out and say you can't use it and define it as exploiting.  They've known how people use it, they probably use it that way themselves, and it has been this way for almost a year.  And you can't use f11 specifically against a person or an entire nation.  Pavels was considered farming and duplicating.  It was somewhat quickly removed after it was repith d.  Because it was so wide spread and done by almost everybody, the devs just handed out pavel bps for those of us who didnt do it yet were behind.  They even had a thread about it and complained that only a few of us reported it.

Thats a fair enough critique. The admin didn't quite call it an exploit but implies that he believes it to be so since hes asking our opinion on punishment. And good for him. I to believe it is an exploit. Essentially, I am not disagreeing with the communities judgment that this was an exploit. I am disagreeing with the communities knee-jerk reaction to ban a player for doing something the game allows and no prior judgment has been passed on. The examples I used were to simply highlight how certain exploits have been allowed and players not punished. I argued the same then as I do now. No rule, No ban!

[victor]

Thats a fair enough critique. The admin didn't quite call it an exploit but implies that he believes it to be so since hes asking our opinion on punishment. And good for him. I to believe it is an exploit. Essentially, I am not disagreeing with the communities judgment that this was an exploit. I am disagreeing with the communities knee-jerk reaction to ban a player for doing something the game allows and no prior judgment has been passed on. The examples I used were to simply highlight how certain exploits have been allowed and players not punished. I argued the same then as I do now. No rule, No ban!

 

This is also exactly my opinion.

Edited March 13, 2016 by victor

[Nalyd]

Thats a fair enough critique. The admin didn't quite call it an exploit but implies that he believes it to be so since hes asking our opinion on punishment. And good for him. I to believe it is an exploit. Essentially, I am not disagreeing with the communities judgment that this was an exploit. I am disagreeing with the communities knee-jerk reaction to ban a player for doing something the game allows and no prior judgment has been passed on. The examples I used were to simply highlight how certain exploits have been allowed and players not punished. I argued the same then as I do now. No rule, No ban!

 

I partially agree with that.

But still what this/those person(s) did can't be tolerated and while banning is too harsh, a slap on the wrist is way too gentle.

 

It reminds me of GW2 which had a merchant selling very high quality stuff at a very high price. The problem was that they forgot a digit which made the object dirt cheap for a while at the release of the game.

Of course people bought those and and the devs dished out punishment.

-People who bought one or two of those item were free to go with those since there is a good likely hood they didn't knew it was an exploit.

-Those who bought a dozen of them were given a warning, since these guys might have bought it for their friends and didn't mean harm.

-However, those who bought more than 50 or even hundreds of them got flat out banned from the game, Would you genuinely purchase the same item hundreds of time despite the fact that you could only equip one of them ? I don't believe so, nor did the devs. 

 

And we have the same situation here.

 

If it was a genuine mistake, the guy who did that would just get an explanation on how the PB work.

 

But in this case, the guy fully knew what he did was wrong since he created an account just to do that. And even then I would think that a warning should be enough.

 

However what he did was far worse than that, he actually used 2 alt accounts to transfert his funds like via a proxy. 1 alt account would have been enough to prevent any player from knowing its true account, so what was the point of using 2 ? This was obviously an action aimed toward the devs and not us other players. This guy thought that the devs were too dumb to be able to track him down if he was doing something like that.

And by doing so, this exploiter showed that he didn't had any bit of respect for the devs who created this game.

 

Someone like that doesn't deserve any kind treatment and yet, I still believe in second chance.

 

Therefore I would advocate for a ban of every alt accounts used to do this exploit and also a complete wipe of the culprit's account. So he can start freshly again and think about his behavior.

However, I don't believe in a third chance and after this case is done any person found guilty of using this exploit with the mean to harm other players experience should get an instant ban.

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse or defense".

[SoulPYTHON]

Keep in mind what punishment you set here will set precedent for future action based on this....So with that in mind.   Midshipman ranks shouldn't be able to buy flag in my opinion...Flags should only be able to be bought at a certain rank.

 For the person who did this well the alt account should be either banned for a while and/or disabled from buying any flags.  and the money traced if possible and that account should be temporally banned.

 

 

after the punishment is decided all future action that are like this should be consistent.

 

+1 for lower ranks not being able to buy flags, will evade certain issues but dont agree with the banning/wiping/refunding of account

 

On the whole flag exploit it all depends for the devs to figure out what kind of alt meta level they want in their game. Spai's have always existed through the ages, now its up to the Developers to figure out what they want alt accounts to be able to do, if they want to create a whole meta game around/in their game like eve online, where a spai can disband a whole alliance or make it somewhat milder where spai's just look for insider information but cannot disband clans/guilds that is up to them.

 

flag exploit if u want to call it that is just a part of the game that needs to be explored and fool proofed in the duration of Early Access

 

The ball is back in your Court Admin/Developers, we the community should not pass judgement until u decide what u are going to do with alt accounts.

[MaliceA4Thought]

Thats a fair enough critique. The admin didn't quite call it an exploit but implies that he believes it to be so since hes asking our opinion on punishment. And good for him. I to believe it is an exploit. Essentially, I am not disagreeing with the communities judgment that this was an exploit. I am disagreeing with the communities knee-jerk reaction to ban a player for doing something the game allows and no prior judgment has been passed on. The examples I used were to simply highlight how certain exploits have been allowed and players not punished. I argued the same then as I do now. No rule, No ban!

Whilst I don't disagree with you in many ways,I don't believe in a sandbox, you can write a rule for everything, and as such I believe there is also a category of "use of a mechanic that by all commonsense would be seen, and deemed an exploit"  and perhaps that is the rule that needs to be written to be all encompassing.

 

For me that would require a strong warning and a one off temp suspension before any ban (or my suggestion above) would take place with a watch on the account in future.

 

M

[Johny Reb]

Whilst I don't disagree with you in many ways,I don't believe in a sandbox, you can write a rule for everything, and as such I believe there is also a category of "use of a mechanic that by all commonsense would be seen, and deemed an exploit"  and perhaps that is the rule that needs to be written to be all encompassing.

 

For me that would require a strong warning and a one off temp suspension before any ban (or my suggestion above) would take place with a watch on the account in future.

 

M

I think I agree with your statement and suggestions completely here

[StandingCow]

Ban the account for exploiting, make him rebuy the game again if he really wants to play, maybe he will learn his lesson.

[Quineloe]

Ban the account for exploiting, make him rebuy the game again if he really wants to play, maybe he will learn his lesson.

 

I don't think this flies with Steam

[SynMonger]

I don't think this flies with Steam

Tell that to people with VAC bans.

[Rigge1988]

7 days ban. if caught again 1 month if caught a third time permanent.

[JCDC]

minimum rank for assault flag purchase makes this exploit much harder to use. realistically noone under the rank of master and commander is ever going to launch a serious port assault, perhaps even port captain. then most alt accounts simply wont be able to do this.

 

Simple solution.