Kayin Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Threatening to leave a game in alpha because a person didn't get the punishment you wanted is not what i'd call being constructive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Whales Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 First of all it's not *paying* customers, it's *paid* customers. This isn't a subscription service, so the Devs aren't losing any money by banning a blatant exploiter. Second, this isn't about capping that one port, or getting even. It's about whether such inappropriate behavior will be tolerated in the future. Because if something severe isn't done to the culprits this time, I can guarantee you that other people will be encouraged to find another exploit like this and abuse the crap out of it instead of reporting it. As far as I'm concerned this is no different than the damage farming exploit. It's an exploit, the user/users knew it was wrong, and they did it anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musuko42 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) So: if ten customers (after having expressed on the forums their opinion) really want to leave a game only because - on one side - one faction met a two days delay in the conquest of one port and - on the other side - the pair of players that made this atrocious thing possible are not instapermabanned form the game, my opinion is that those ten customers do not really like the game. And - therefore - it's better loosing them now than later. Please don't put words in my mouth and then contest those words. I am not saying that people will ragequit just because of this one thing. I'm saying that people will have a less fun if this sort of cheating and exploiting continues unpunished, and people who aren't having fun won't keep playing. Threatening to leave a game in alpha because a person didn't get the punishment you wanted is not what i'd call being constructive. Same thing; don't put words into my mouth. Nobody's threatening to leave. First of all it's not *paying* customers, it's *paid* customers. This isn't a subscription service, so the Devs aren't losing any money by banning a blatant exploiter Fine, quibble over semantics. Where I've said "paying" customers, imagine I said "paid" customers. Happy? PAID customers who get a crappy experience will stop playing, and will communicate their dissatisfaction in reviews, and the devs will get fewer PAID customers in future. Is that message clear? Edited March 10, 2016 by Musuko42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victor Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Well ... If two people put the same words in your mouth, maybe those words appeared to be right there .. at least according to your "consensus rule" (it's two vs one, so we two are right and you are wrong! ). Edited March 10, 2016 by victor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musuko42 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Well ... If two people put the same words in your mouth, maybe those words appeared to be right there .. at least according to your "consensus rule" (it's two vs one, so we two are right and you are wrong! ). Well alright. I've clarified now. Better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victor Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Well alright. I've clarified now. Better? Ok, but only for this time. Next ambiguous sentence and the Court will fine you for trying to influence the jury! C'mon, try not to be so serious. After all ... is a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musuko42 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) C'mon, try not to be so serious. After all ... is a game. Yeah I know. But I remember what it was like to have a full-time job (I'm a self-employed slacker now, thankfully). You go to work all day, you get a few hours to yourself at the end of the day, you want to enjoy a game...and instead you get dicked around by trololololol hacker sociopaths. Your leisure time is wasted. Your money is wasted. And both of those things are limited resources for you. I love this game. I love what it is, and what it might become. And at the same time I fear for what it may become. GTA5, Rust, DayZ, all had such potential, and I've abandoned all of them because these kinds of people run rampant and unchecked in those games. I don't want to have to abandon this one too. Edited March 10, 2016 by Musuko42 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victor Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Yeah I know. But I remember what it was like to have a full-time job (I'm a self-employed slacker now, thankfully). You go to work all day, you get a few hours to yourself at the end of the day, you want to enjoy a game...and instead you get dicked around by trololololol hacker sociopaths. Your leisure time is wasted. Your money is wasted. And both of those things are limited resources for you. I love this game. I love what it is, and what it might become. And at the same time I fear for what it may become. GTA5, Rust, DayZ, all had such potential, and I've abandoned all of them because these kinds of people run rampant and unchecked in those games. I don't want to have to abandon this one too. Well, since I'm a long time EVE online player, I get used to trololol sociopaths that invent every day some new thing to spoil your game. That's the only difference maybe. Edited March 10, 2016 by victor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wang Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Threatening to leave a game in alpha because a person didn't get the punishment you wanted is not what i'd call being constructive. I can't see a single post from anyone in here claiming such. Every post ive read is more about the community, and fears about this game turning into other dead games because of exploits like this one. The argument is, if this is not come down heavy on. To demonstrate to the community that such exploits that break the fundamentals of the game are not punished harshly they it encourages people to do the same/similar or even worse exploits in the future. This is about taking a stand as a community and stating we dont want players in this game who subtract from it. We want players in this game that add to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptEdwardKenway Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Would you please beg pardon for my Irony, Sir, but you somehow asked for it by replying in Court with such an intriguing counter-argument. So: if ten customers (after having expressed on the forums their opinion) really want to leave a game only because - on one side - one faction met a two days delay in the conquest of one port and - on the other side - the pair of players that made this atrocious thing possible are not instapermabanned form the game, my opinion is that those ten customers do not really like the game. And - therefore - it's better loosing them now than later. Which means every time those ten customers are doing this type of shit we are loosing 1 customer. Which means after 10 times we already lost 10 customers. How many customers can we loose within a year by those 10 customers? And how many decide not to buy this game because of those 10 customers? Hm hard decision I guess. At laest for a few people. Edited March 11, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby Unnecessary reference to Nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slamz Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 So: if ten customers (after having expressed on the forums their opinion) really want to leave a game only because - on one side - one faction met a two days delay in the conquest of one port and - on the other side - the pair of players that made this atrocious thing possible are not instapermabanned form the game, my opinion is that those ten customers do not really like the game. And - therefore - it's better loosing them now than later. To be clear, those 10 players wouldn't just be quitting because someone got away with something -- they would be quitting over the perception that the game is tilting into lawless trolling and if they continue to play, they are just going to keep getting their game experience ruined anyway. If 1 person can get away with trolling the game today, then 10 people can get away with it tomorrow and 100 after that. In that case, they reason, why not cut our losses now rather than watching the game get slowly and inevitably destroyed by trolls anyway? That's why I argue that this really isn't about what 1 or 2 people did one day. It's about the perception of whether intentional, meta-gaming, same-team trolling is acceptable or not. (And then wasting the developers' time tracking them down because they took measures to hide their tracks.) This case would be a lot fuzzier if, say, the Dutch had bought a flag to prevent the British from buying a flag (I'm not sure if that's how the mechanics work, but just for example's sake). Then at least there's a real RvR argument to be had and the result might be "Annoying enough that the devs should put in a fix, but not really an exploit." But doing it as a same-team flag purchase crossed an obvious line. Doing it with an alt giving money to an alt that gets deleted just underscores it. In summary, burn the witches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight the first Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 To be clear, those 10 players wouldn't just be quitting because someone got away with something -- they would be quitting over the perception that the game is tilting into lawless trolling and if they continue to play, they are just going to keep getting their game experience ruined anyway. If 1 person can get away with trolling the game today, then 10 people can get away with it tomorrow and 100 after that. In that case, they reason, why not cut our losses now rather than watching the game get slowly and inevitably destroyed by trolls anyway? That's why I argue that this really isn't about what 1 or 2 people did one day. It's about the perception of whether intentional, meta-gaming, same-team trolling is acceptable or not. (And then wasting the developers' time tracking them down because they took measures to hide their tracks.) This case would be a lot fuzzier if, say, the Dutch had bought a flag to prevent the British from buying a flag (I'm not sure if that's how the mechanics work, but just for example's sake). Then at least there's a real RvR argument to be had and the result might be "Annoying enough that the devs should put in a fix, but not really an exploit." But doing it as a same-team flag purchase crossed an obvious line. Doing it with an alt giving money to an alt that gets deleted just underscores it. In summary, burn the witches. Slamz brings up good points in general. I am inclined to stomp them out, barring a public explanation and apology. Even then- there should be a penalty. If the Devs have to go chasing them down- I'd say a permaban for wasted man hours is in order. If they own the crime, an XP-wipe or week long ban I think would be sufficient. I think the most elegant solution to the greater problem is this, though- allow the purchase of multiple flags, even by the same side. Whoever plants first gets to launch the conquest and locks out the other nation(s). I have no idea on the feasability here, but say if two brits bought the flag, one with nefarious intent and the other with the intent to attack with his buddies, as well as a swede and a frenchman- the guy with nefarious intent just wasted his gold and the swede, frenchman, and brit now have a race to get to the port in question and/or burn down the other flag carrier. This opens up additional strategic options, as well, leading up to the attack. Under any and all circumstances. SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE. PURGE THE HERESY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandarix Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Regarding this post http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/11729-abuse-of-flag-mechanics-to-block-assault-on-port/ British player Neverdie gave the player heyhey money to buy the flag HeyHey owner bought the flag and deleted the player. We believe this is a community issue. Please propose the punishment for the players/steam accounts involved. Extra points for clan leaders/national leaders proposals. Thank you moderators for bringing our attention to this topic during patch crunch In theory, He didn't do anything wrong other than being a troll. There are a few ways we can go about this. 1. If the account is a purchased account rather than a "Family Share" (Pre patch) then as a paid player he has a right to do this no matter how dick of a move it is until you as the developer come out and say actions like this are not tolerable. 1b. If the account is Family Share then technically it's an illegal character that should not have been in game which warrants punishment. (find the main) Considering this is an action that requires Gold a complete and warranted action would be to fine him. Now likely, if he's smart he would trade all his gold/assets away after seeing your punishment thread. (you may be able to track it) Your best action would be to fine him negative currency that he would have to farm back in game so if he has 0 gold he logs in and sees - negative 300,000 or what ever the flags cost was. That way if he traded it away it will just deduct it when he trades it back. Or, just contact him and tell him this is whats going to happen etc. 2. Since there are no disclosed rules for this game on topics like this there really isn't much you can honestly do to him other than options above without creating a fire. Yeah, it happened and yeah, people are mad but it's in the game and it happened. You as developers allowed it to via mechanics and this is an Early Access game and I'm sure issues like this will not be the last of it. We have wipes ahead and ultimately this really wont have an effect on the game after that point. However, you will need to come out and speak out on this that intentionally trolling a nation by buying a flag in their faction to prevent them from attacking ports is an abuse of in game mechanics and those who violate this condition will be punished. You're going to need some type of Terms of Service via login like most MMOS which no1 reads but it allows you to go back and justify punishment when violations are clear and any time there is change to the TOS it re-prompts for users to read. IMO no punishment just warning. - Vandarix The Elder Dwarf of OMG I'm Drunk. Edited March 11, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby Removed unfounded accusation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 In summary, burn the witches. I'm prolly too old for this shit, but that has me more worried that the actual troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marioch Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 IMHO, this "exploit", and I find it way too hard to call it that, was a clever use of game mechanics and should not be even punished. What should be done is to modify the mechanics to avoid somehitng this stupid to happen again. Having the flag bearer to need a bigger ship is a good start, but IMO there should be some more limitations: Bearer should have a high enough rank to enter the battle Bearer should be in a clan: not that I hate clanless people, but conquering stuff requires organisation and that's what clans are supposed to be there for If you really want to punish the guy / guys, I'd go with a warning and a ban for the next port attack blocking offense by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikedaBike Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 To many games are lessened by the toxic cheating crowd that lurk in the shadows of every game these days, send a harsh message as a warning to all players that here, in this game, the toxic/cheating cowd will not hold sway, and that there is no place for them within this game if they play this way. Send the message now, paint it on every sail on every ship! It is time that COMMUNITY took back from these scum that which they steal, spoil and belittle. They add nothing to the hard work of the devs, and take away a lot from the pleasure of a great game like this! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Marslow Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) You know, if the player(s) responsible came forward and admitted to it (with dev confirmation ofc), and apologized I think I could deal with that. More than anything this was just down right dirty play. It was however a blatant exploit. I'll buy someone an alt account my self if a dev comes on and says that this use of an alt is fine and acceptable. We all know its not going to happen. Name and shame would do more to wreck this person(s) reputation (and possibly their clans too). Also, some people have mentioned the example of Danes buying a flag for St Nics to prevent British from buying it. This doesn't work. AFAIK every nation could buy a flag for St Nics within half an hour of each other. It would be a race to see who plants the flag first. At that point it might become questionable as to if that should be allowed. Example: Britain buys flag for St Nics. Danes buy flag for St Nics. Danes plant flag first but do not actually fight the battle. Edited March 11, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby Removed unnecessary reference to potential nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptEdwardKenway Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) In theory, He didn't do anything wrong other than being a troll. There are a few ways we can go about this. 1. If the account is a purchased account rather than a "Family Share" (Pre patch) then as a paid player he has a right to do this no matter how dick of a move it is until you as the developer come out and say actions like this are not tolerable. 1b. If the account is Family Share then technically it's an illegal character that should not have been in game which warrants punishment. (find the main) Considering this is an action that requires Gold a complete and warranted action would be to fine him. Now likely, if he's smart he would trade all his gold/assets away after seeing your punishment thread. (you may be able to track it) Your best action would be to fine him negative currency that he would have to farm back in game so if he has 0 gold he logs in and sees - negative 300,000 or what ever the flags cost was. That way if he traded it away it will just deduct it when he trades it back. Or, just contact him and tell him this is whats going to happen etc. 2. Since there are no disclosed rules for this game on topics like this there really isn't much you can honestly do to him other than options above without creating a fire. Yeah, it happened and yeah, people are mad but it's in the game and it happened. You as developers allowed it to via mechanics and this is an Early Access game and I'm sure issues like this will not be the last of it. We have wipes ahead and ultimately this really wont have an effect on the game after that point. However, you will need to come out and speak out on this that intentionally trolling a nation by buying a flag in their faction to prevent them from attacking ports is an abuse of in game mechanics and those who violate this condition will be punished. You're going to need some type of Terms of Service via login like most MMOS which no1 reads but it allows you to go back and justify punishment when violations are clear and any time there is change to the TOS it re-prompts for users to read. IMO no punishment just warning. - Vandarix The Elder Dwarf of OMG I'm Drunk. It's an exploit and he must not use it. Further he has to report it and not abuse it. If there something like this in the game mechanics which allows someone to troll a whole nation which is a serious exploit and he doesn't report it and abuses it he needs to get banned. He agreed not to do it the moment he payed for this game. He agreed to report it the moment he payed for this game. Simple as that. I don't know why people are still need to talk about it not to punish those players too hard. They are grown up and know what is right and what is not right. They knew it wasn't right so there we go. Banhammer. End of story. No other player will try to be a dick like those players again and we can play like normal gamers again and not like jerks. Edited March 11, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandarix Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) It's an exploit and he must not use it. Further he has to report it and not abuse it. If there something like this in the game mechanics which allows someone to troll a whole nation which is a serious exploit and he doesn't report it and abuses it he needs to get banned. He agreed not to do it the moment he payed for this game. He agreed to report it the moment he payed for this game. Simple as that. I don't know why people are still need to talk about it not to punish those players too hard. They are grown up and know what is right and what is not right. They knew it wasn't right so there we go. Banhammer. End of story. No other player will try to be a dick like those players again and we can play like normal gamers again and not like jerks. You sir, have apparently never worked a day in a legal field. Right or wrong, It was a mechanic that is questionable I agree. However, it's not an exploit nor is it against the rules for a player to buy a flag on a nation he has a character on. (Even if he doesn't use it) At most it's a dick move and needs to be addressed. That my good friend is a fact. That's like saying a Nation cannot buy 2 flags at once to confuse the enemy faction to choose which port they're actually going to hit. While yes, it's a completely different tactic than the one we have here but it still means 1 of those capture windows are used up for the day. Edited March 11, 2016 by Vandarix 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marioch Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 You sir, have apparently never worked a day in a legal field. Right or wrong, It was a mechanic that is questionable I agree. However, it's not an exploit nor is it against the rules for a player to buy a flag on a nation he has a character on. (Even if he doesn't use it) At most it's a dick move and needs to be addressed. That my good friend is a fact. That's like saying a Nation cannot buy 2 flags at once to confuse the enemy faction to choose which port they're actually going to hit. While yes, it's a completely different tactic than the one we have here but it still means 1 of those capture windows are used up for the day. +1, Game mechanics gone rogue, sort it with a fix and clarify that it's not permitted (officially). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slamz Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I'm prolly too old for this shit, but that has me more worried that the actual troll. I think it's more a question of how much experience you have in how many multiplayer online communities. After seeing a few good games literally ruined by a lack of community policing, I would rather risk too much than too little. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johny Reb Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I am not a fan of punishing someone for breaking a rule that does not exist, no matter how obviously in bad taste the action was. I do think this player exploited a loop hole in the mechanic with the pure intent to do so, evidenced by him creating a brand new character to do it with. My guess is, he didn't report it and reporting an exploit is a long time rule. The common exploit allowed players to grind money or rank faster than should be possible and their punishment was to reset their accounts. This exploit did neither for the player. I think the punishment format should be followed or delete it from the rules thread. 1st offence – warning 2nd offence – 2 day pre-moderation 3rd offence – 2 suspension 4th offence– 7 day suspension 5th offence or more – 14 day suspension Johny Reb/Thomas Pain EU1 Tattered Flags commanding. Founding member of the American Council Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalakithSkadi Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 The common exploit allowed players to grind money or rank faster than should be possible and their punishment was to reset their accounts. This exploit did neither for the player. I think the punishment format should be followed or delete it from the rules thread. My interpretation of this is that because it wasn't for "personal" gain then he should be treated more lightly? If that is the case I wholeheartedly disagree. Damage farming was an exploit for personal gain which on an individual case level has minimal impact on everyone else. This was a pre-meditated and organised attempt to completely deprive an entire nation of the ability to attack a port for that day. Whilst he personally didn't gain much from it the impact of the action was far further reaching into the playerbase. But ultimately it is arguing semantics, the dev's likely have what they want by now. The utterly ridiculous thing about this entire ordeal is how much worse it could have been if some minor amount of intelligence had been used, sail it near the port then "oh no I got grabbed by the Spanish", for all bodies of proof it would have looked like an intentional attempt to deliver the flag went wrong and whilst some may have been suspicious it likely would have drifted past unnoticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebs Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Ban the accouts how hard can it be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmarby Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Perma-ban the alt accounts, reset the main accounts of their owners if they can be found. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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