Abuse of flag mechanics 2 - decision needed

[Warrax]

Punishment for any exploiter or cheater, and any clearly enabling cheat-like behaviours could be on a graduated scale of various degrees of harshness.

Also, i would suggest the combination of any below

1. Craft level wipe / roll back

2. Resource wipe / reduction

3. Exp wipe/roll back

4. Wipe of Outposts / reduction of outposts

5. Siezure/wipe of all floating assests (ships)

6. Seizure/wipe of all materials

7. Wipe across all categories

8. Shaming, ie if name is "Bob", temporary name change to "Bob [of shameful repute]"

9. Publish a closed forum page and outline offenses, (no names) and outline punishment handed down

Be creative ... Banning is lame. Shaming and in-game punishments advertise to others that cheats, hacks and exploiters will not be tolerated

[Kayin]

Everyone around here is talking about how this flag thing pinned down them having fun but nobody even cares about the spanish fun because as far as im concerned we are totally unable to cap any ports. We launched an attack on siguanea the other day which was fun running the flag and all and the brits defended, next day timer is 06-08.

To me that is an equally shameful exploit and the people behind it are hiding saying its game mechanics.

Now i don't want this guy to go unharmed but an account reset and a perma ban are way too much for this.

[Wang]

Everyone please KEEP ON TOPIC.

 

You want to complain about port battle timer mechanics, make a new thread about it.  Or even better add to the one's already made a few weeks ago

[victor]

To [Tsunami}

 

I agree to a certain degree...  However, the other side of the coin is that you can separate the positive from the negative.  Despite the fact that you can take a positive from this, in that you did, in fact learn an exploit, you can still punish the individual(s) who cheat.  As you say, there are ALWAYS going to be people who try and exploit the game in order to get ahead, so lets let others take the role of cheater in the future.  This person certainly used an exploit which is explicitly against the rules.  Getting info from a bad situation doesnt necessarily mean we must tolerate or condone it.

 

Except an exploit is not clearly a cheat until devs state clearly it is a cheat. And when this expoloit has been done, it was not clear that it was a bannable offense. That's the point a lot of people seem to miss. Not mentioning that we are in Alpha Phase and all and all the "offense" was not letting GB taking one port in the middle of nowhere.

 

So one thing is telling that from now on such a exploit is "bannable" (and I agree on that) and another story is telling that those  people that did that stupid thing should be banned for that.

 

Just give the port to the brits and state that from now on who will make that thing will be banned.

Edited March 10, 2016 by victor

[Wang]

Except an exploit is not clearly a cheat until devs state clearly it is a cheat. And when this expoloit has been done, it was not clear that it was a bannable offense. That's the point a lot of people seem to miss. Not mentioning that we are in Alpha Phase and all and all the "offense" was not letting GB taking one port in the middle of nowhere.

 

So one thing is telling that from now on such a exploit is "bannable" (and I agree on that) and another story is telling that those  people that did that stupid thing should be banned for that.

 

Just give the port to the brits and state that from now on who will make that thing will be banned.

 

Firstly to try to lighten this offense by saying 'port in the middle of no where' is so misleading.  It was important due to it being in range to many of our ports, which dont have timers set.  This is why the spanish were defending it so much.

 

Secondly, we got the port today.

 

Thirdly, its not about what port it is, where it is, or who did it for what reason.  It is a game breaking exploit, than if not responded to it will be done again and again.  I think majority of people in the naval action community view dont want some one who used such exploits in the game.  This wasnt a innocent, 'testing mechanic' action.  This was orchestrated by someone who has ill intent, as shown by trying to cover up their actions by using multiple alts.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Removed unfounded accusation.

[victor]

Secondly, we got the port today.

 

 

 

nuff you said.

 

Just prevent this to be done in the future by allowing only high rank players to buy flags and by stating that from now on this will be a bannable offense.

 

This is "responding" to the thing, not going on in trying to make a shitstorm out of a glass of piss thrown upwind.

 

As far as I knew, what nobody shouldn't expect is the Spanish inquisition, not the Brit one (but this joke you can understand only if you are old enough )

Edited March 10, 2016 by victor

[Kayin]

I'm not complaining about port battles. I'm making a point about how a lot of game mechanics are being exploited yet everyone gets so salty on this and not on people having extra account to get resources from other nations, or the other trillion exploits that are happening in the game so far.

[Wang]

nuff you said.

 

Just prevent this to be done in the future by allowing only high rank players to buy flags and by stating that from now on this will be a bannable offense.

 

This is "responding" to the thing, not going on in trying to make a shitstorm out of a glass of piss thrown upwind.

 

As far as I knew, what nobody shouldn't expect is the Spanish inquisition, not the Brit one (but this joke you can understand only if you are old enough )

 

Plenty old enough, fan of Monty python

 

I agree it has to be prevented somehow, but as i stated in the previous thread.  The solution is more complicated than only letting a higher rank player purchase the flag, as someone could just play on their alt for a few days and then the exploit is open again.

 

The devs are busy at the moment with the upcoming content patch, and untill a proper solution to fully stop this exploit is found.  It should be a tribunal offence and in my belief it should be a ban offense. I would be saying the same for any other nation player doing this, especially British.

I'm not complaining about port battles. I'm making a point about how a lot of game mechanics are being exploited yet everyone gets so salty on this and not on people having extra account to get resources from other nations, or the other trillion exploits that are happening in the game so far.

 

Well in your last post it was about port timers, also again your diverting this topic.

 

While i totally agree with you on the usage of alts, i believe that this thread should stay on topic about THIS offense and shouldnt be derailed.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Wang

[Quineloe]

Yay, maturin!

---

Question is whether people want to plug the hole/fix the problem or if they're content with frying this particular individual.

I've already figured out how to do this without any trace to my main account while still feeding the flag money from it. Have fun with your torches and pitchforks.

Since you are unwilling to do your alpha tester duty and report what you have thought of, I will do it for you.

I somehow doubt you can explain why you put a buy order for a million moneys for a worthless item in a free town, btw. And why another account was there to instantly fill it.

[Kayin]

While i totally agree with you on the usage of alts, i believe that this thread should stay on topic about THIS offense and shouldnt be derailed.

While this is true we are measuring a penalty for this issue, and to do it fairly we have to measure the whole picture, not just this thing.

[Gishank]

A rule doesn't need to be specifically written regarding this incident, because at the end of the day an exploit is an exploit. It really should be common sense that if you knowingly abuse an exploit, then you're liable to be punished. I personally feel that the offender should have his accounts wiped, followed by a temporary ban of a week. Should anyone else be found to abusing this mechanic, permanent bans should be issued. I don't really feel that this is something that the player-base should decide the punishment for, as everyone is likely to have their own bias and extremely varying opinions. You as developers need to show that any abuse of exploits is strictly prohibited and come down on them like a tonne of bricks.

[SirLeggit]

This was a deliberate act to break the game...it was not done to test and report and as such the accounts of the people involved should be banned permanently.

[Alictos]

Ive said to my fellow clan mates many many times this is not a game that needs alts it breaks the core game i can slightly understand for people that use them for trade but even then you dont need the 2nd toon, Also this also brings up the question will you will be limited by how many times you can faction change as it stands right now its faction hop city and its really really boring to see

[Brogsitter]

No punishment should be given to the players, but to the devs who still insist on PB timers. I would consider no more Vodka for at least two weeks.

[victor]

A rule doesn't need to be specifically written regarding this incident, because at the end of the day an exploit is an exploit. It really should be common sense that if you knowingly abuse an exploit, then you're liable to be punished. I personally feel that the offender should have his accounts wiped, followed by a temporary ban of a week. Should anyone else be found to abusing this mechanic, permanent bans should be issued. I don't really feel that this is something that the player-base should decide the punishment for, as everyone is likely to have their own bias and extremely varying opinions. You as developers need to show that any abuse of exploits is strictly prohibited and come down on them like a tonne of bricks.

 

Problem is that your common sense about what is an unfair exploit is not necessarily mine or his or hers. I could state (it's just an example, so I do not want to open the issue here) that setting port timers in a way that harms constantly just one specific faction is unfair and you may state that it is not. Since no one can tell who is right or wrong, I say that until Devs do no take an official position in the sense that it is an unfair exploit no one could be bannable for such action (even if the Devs should come to the conclusion that it is a exploit).

 

Simply put: I am not telling at all that the "alt flag trick" shall not be a bannable offence, I'm just telling that - if the Devs deem so - a ban (or any other "personal" punishment) should be limited to any future violations.

 

After all you cannot take 40 bucks from a person and say, since other players did not like the way you played the game yesterday, then I keep your money buy you cannot play anylonger the game. Let's remember that a game is part of real life and it does actually exist also a "real life common sense".

 

Ok, I think I'm done with it. Good discussion.

Edited March 10, 2016 by victor

[jodgi]

And again based on my experience in online gaming, NOT punishing perpetrators will literally cause the demise of the entire community.

I'm not saying "no" to a reaction against these things. I've just put the brakes on because people are all "one wrong step means criminal for life" and "ban steam account without issue of warning".

What games have you played that does this over mechanics abuse? The games I've played have even issued "cease and desist" warnings to software cheat or injector users.

Maybe I've been spared, it's been a long time since I've played games squeakers gravitate towards. NA is not your typical squeaker game, is it?

[WladimirUN]

if the main account can be traced down with no doubts i'd suggest:
halfing xp / gold / crafting xp
selling all mats and ships @port royal (yes i'm british and i was waiting for the PB as the incident happened)

 

a full reset and/or ban is too much i think, those actions show that exploiting will be punished and will hurt the player very much, but not to a point where he/she stops playing. after all this is a game, and yes exploiting is no joke, but the player should not be forced into starting from the scratch again.

[Potemkin]

You guys do realize in the end the only way to put a permanent end to these kinds of exploits its to outlaw ALL alt accounts. They are the root source of almost every exploit so far and due to the amount of people who have them i have serious doubts as to whether people will want to go through with a change like that. That will bring us right back to square one every time a new exploit is found.

[jodgi]

Since you are unwilling to do your alpha tester duty and report what you have thought of, I will do it for you.

I somehow doubt you can explain why you put a buy order for a million moneys for a worthless item in a free town, btw. And why another account was there to instantly fill it.

But I did when asked. Why would I spend time carefully theorycrafting more or less intricate ways of griefing other players and posting directions publicly? Hinting towards it should suffice.

Why pretend someone with disruptive intent would use easily detectable methods of obfuscating the link between their troll and main accounts?

Usually I know if I'm about to get jumped. Not this time. Throwing up a word of caution and advocating for the cool-headed approach is not on my list of risky things to post.

[Charles Caldwell]

Slamz has very good points.  The steps taken to hide these actions indicate malice and forethought.  Taking all of those steps shows intent.

 

Find the original source account for the gold, XP reset.

 

Agreed!

[Musuko42]

Problem is that your common sense about what is an unfair exploit is not necessarily mine or his or hers.

 

As with the real world, the consensus is the measure.

 

Imagine you're having a party with twenty guests and one person is being an idiot and pissing everyone else off. That one person might bleat "but you didn't specifically say I can't do this or that thing". And you might even agree that the thing they are doing isn't all that bad. But you've got nineteen unhappy guests who are threatening to leave if you don't get rid of that one person. It doesn't matter what you as the host think. The only question you're facing is "do I want one person to leave my party, or nineteen?" So what would you do in that situation?

 

That's the situation the devs are facing now. They've got a bunch of unhappy players, and a few individuals who have caused it. The obvious answer is to invite those few players to leave.

 

I'm sure they can be refunded the cost of the game if that's a concern.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Musuko42

[victor]

As with the real world, the consensus is the measure.

 

Imagine you're having a party with twenty guests and one person is being an idiot and pissing everyone else off. That one person might bleat "but you didn't specifically say I can't do this or that thing". And you might even agree that the thing they are doing isn't all that bad. But you've got nineteen unhappy guests who are threatening to leave if you don't get rid of that one person. It doesn't matter what you as the host think. The only question you're facing is "do I want one person to leave my party, or nineteen?" So what would you do in that situation?

 

That's the situation the devs are facing now. They've got a bunch of unhappy players, and a few individuals who have caused it. The obvious answer is to invite those few players to leave.

 

I'm sure they can be refunded the cost of the game if that's a concern.

 

c'mon: in real world the consensus is not verified on the basis of a couple of posts on the forum.

 

The playerbase of this game is 2500 people and you are telling me that 10 persons telling one thing in a forum is a consensus sufficient to ban someone that paid real money to play a game. Seriously?

 

Let's take aside ropes and pitchforks and let's get back to the real topic: state clear that it's a bannable offence and seek game mechanics how to avoid that this will happen in the future.

 

Otherwise, going on with this "ban, ban them all" style, you will convince me and others about the fact that all this "scandal" is just another case of metagame propaganda of a national faction against another!

Edited March 10, 2016 by victor

[Musuko42]

The playerbase of this game is 2500 people and you are telling me that 10 persons telling one thing in a forum is a consensus sufficient to ban someone that paid real money to play a game. Seriously?

 

It doesn't need to be a consensus. It just needs to be a greater number than the number of culprits.

 

If ten people say "this one person has worsened our gaming experience", then the devs have ten paying customers who have been upset by one paying customer. Do they, as business owners, risk losing ten customers for the sake of one?

 

 

Otherwise, going on with this "ban, ban them all" style, you will convince me and others about the fact that all this "scandal" is just another case of metagame propaganda of a national faction against another!

 

Spanish players were harmed by this debacle too; I'm sure there were some who were looking forward to the chance to fight and defend the port, and were denied the chance.

[Slamz]

What games have you played that does this over mechanics abuse?

 

It's really a question of how flagrant and disruptive something is.

 

If you go onto a paintball course and ruin the game for 2 hours, they're not going to warn you. They're going to kick you out and tell you to never come back.

[victor]

 

 

If ten people say "this one person has worsened our gaming experience", then the devs have ten paying customers who have been upset by one paying customer. Do they, as business owners, risk losing ten customers for the sake of one?

 

 

Would you please beg pardon for my Irony, Sir, but you somehow asked for it by replying in Court with such an intriguing counter-argument.

 

So: if ten customers (after having expressed on the forums their opinion) really want to leave a game only because - on one side - one faction met a two days delay in the conquest of one port and - on the other side - the pair of players that made this atrocious thing possible are not instapermabanned form the game, my opinion is that those ten customers do not really like the game. And - therefore - it's better loosing them now than later.

Edited March 10, 2016 by victor