Abuse of flag mechanics 2 - decision needed

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Slamz has very good points.  The steps taken to hide these actions indicate malice and forethought.  Taking all of those steps shows intent.

 

Find the original source account for the gold, XP reset.

[Slamz]

Lol, To convict someone legally has to be a written rule, if not written no condemnation. First write the laws.

 

Just for the record, Tribunals are for "community issues", such as unsportsmanlike behavior that may be subject to opinion.

 

I think if it was definitely an exploit (like a hack or obvious bug abuse), the admin wouldn't even have asked. He would have just banned the people.

 

Since it's a "community issue" we the players have more sway in what we think is allowable and what the punishment should be.

 

 

Earlier I called this an exploit but I was getting carried away. Really it's just "intentional griefing". Possibly the developers could address this issue by changing some game mechanics but as it stands it's not really a bug and therefore not an "exploit". But buying a flag on an alt and then sitting on it to prevent a port cap is flagrant griefing, meta-gaming, something we definitely do not want to become a trend and I vote we rain down retribution upon these people -- all the moreso because they tried to hide it.

[Quineloe]

Such a bloodthirsty crowd... roleplaying much?

 

So an Englishmen working for Spain received a large sum of money and used it to sabotage a fleet operation of the Royal Navy.

 

What do you think the punishment for this would have been in the late 18th century?

 

Hint: It involved three steps.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Quineloe

[Quineloe]

This is EARLY ACCESS.

Is finding exploits not part of the testing?

 

Exploit should be noted by developers as a known issue that no longer need "testing", hence if anyone else tries the same, they should be punished from now on. 

Everyone with a knowledge of the conquest system knew before this already that buying a flag and then not sailing for the port would render that port invincible to attack. There was no point in proving it.

 

The two accounts have been created in clear and deliberate violation of the crossteaming rules, and therefore can never be legit. They pretty much have to be banned. Every time the player logs back into his british characters, he's back in violation.

 

 

 +1 too much  british in rage, my opinion is a warning would be enough, also mechanics would be changed about the flag and a lot of things more out of this topic

 

Multiple non-British players have called for the permanent ban option as well. Don't fall into your confirmation bias trap.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Quineloe

[Vernon Merrill]

It's pretty revealing to see who is for ban and who is not...

[CptEdwardKenway]

Lol, To convict someone legally has to be a written rule, if not written no condemnation. First write the laws.

 

There is already a law. You must not use exploits. Further if you discover an exploit you have to report it to the devs. He or they didn't report it furhter they used and abused this exploit on purpose with a well planned action.

 

Law was broken -> illegal -> punishement

 

simple as that

Edited March 9, 2016 by CptEdwardKenway

[CptEdwardKenway]

Oh I forgot the danes also bought a flag for Saint-Nicolas to protect it from a british attack. Sain-Nicolas got never attacked by one single danish ship since they are real good buddies with the pirates.

 

This shouldn't be the way to play this game. Play fair and fight hard. But don't play dirth and filthy. Don't force other nations to fight another nation. Fight your own fight. If you can't play fair or fight fair don't play anyway  and stop ruining this beautiful game. We are in early access and some players are already total out of their mind. Stop bullying stop trolling stop exploiting. Just enjoy the game. If you want to fight another nation talk to them. Make an agreement for a meeting out in the sea and fight some epic sea battles. What you are doing especially the dane-pirate fraction is nothing we want to see in this game. It's nothing we payed for and i am pretty sure it's nothing the devs want to have in their game. Help them to develop this game. Report bugs and exploits. Play fair. Stay smart.

Edited March 9, 2016 by CptEdwardKenway

[TsunamiEmperor]

It's pretty revealing to see who is for ban and who is not...

Yeah it's really nice when you can see full view the people who suffer from cognitive dissonance, and the people who are on the outside looking in, trying to be objective about how to treat an issue like this.

In regards to the issue:

The problem with merely tracing back gold transfers is proving the intent of the gold transfers made by the other accounts, did they know what this gold was being used for?  I have no idea how deep this series of accounts actually goes in regards to who gave what account gold, and when, but to be completely frank about an issue like this, we're in an early access game where we are supposed to be TESTING the game and finding problems like this now rather than later.

As controversial a statement as this might be, people with ill-intent tend to benefit games like this more than actually hurt them, what does 1 blocked port actually affect in this game other than causing people to get really butt-hurt about it?  None.  What this event has done is show the devs thoroughly how flawed the current flag mechanics are, and to what extent they need to be fixed in.  As far as I'm concerned, the individual and his intent are completely irrelevant to the real problem, and the real problem is the mechanic itself and how easily it can be alleviated.

Be honest with yourselves, how many people who play this game legitimately would go out of their way to think the way this person thinks?  As toxic as we consider these people for doing things like this, they also help better the game by putting things like this into not only the public eye, but into the public outrage as well.  What he did was practically harmless, it was one port in the middle of the ocean, and the problem is pretty much fixable with the solutions people have provided in a different thread.

You're never going to stop grief in a game, you'll never ban every possible person who has the capacity to do something like this, so instead of wasting your energy trying to ban these people, focus on what they're abusing and fix it.  Good developers use this kind of toxicity to their advantage to help make for a better game, so take advantage of both these kinds of people and the current state your game is in, and prevent this kind of stuff from happening in the future. 

 

That's just my two cents on this specific issue, I do know that some exploits can be absolutely harmful to a community and to an individual, but this one just doesn't push in the direction of "omg the game is ruined because of this", it's a pretty simple exploit with a pretty simple fix, and I'm glad that's it's been brought to our attention now rather than later.

Edited March 9, 2016 by TsunamiEmperor

[Young]

Find the main accounts and reset their XP and gold ban the alt accounts. Make a clear stance on alts as before there was a post stating that the Devs did not necessarily have an issue with alt accounts and that multiple games could be purchased with one IP. If these players are clever enough to take it this far who is to say that they are not using a proxy server for their Alt so it may be very hard to track the main accounts down. This issues is getting more and more wide spread every day. 

[CptEdwardKenway]

The problem with merely tracing back gold transfers is proving the intent of the gold transfers made by the other accounts, did they know what this gold was being used for?  I have no idea how deep this series of accounts actually goes

 

Do you know the movie Smokey and the Bandit? There is a line from sheriff Buford T Justice. I try to translate it since I couldn't find it.

He says something like "if you are going to blow up a brothel you are going to arrest the piano player too". So it's the problem of all the invovled. Shit happens it's the only way to bring justice and to make an example for others to never do it again. Never.

[Vernon Merrill]

To [Tsunami}

 

I agree to a certain degree...  However, the other side of the coin is that you can separate the positive from the negative.  Despite the fact that you can take a positive from this, in that you did, in fact learn an exploit, you can still punish the individual(s) who cheat.  As you say, there are ALWAYS going to be people who try and exploit the game in order to get ahead, so lets let others take the role of cheater in the future.  This person certainly used an exploit which is explicitly against the rules.  Getting info from a bad situation doesnt necessarily mean we must tolerate or condone it.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Vernon Merrill

[Capt. Rice]

Do you know the movie Smokey and the Bandit? There is a line from sheriff Buford T Justice. I try to translate it since I couldn't find it.

He says something like "if you are going to blow up a brothel you are going to arrest the piano player too". So it's the problem of all the invovled. Shit happens it's the only way to bring justice and to make an example for others to never do it again. Never.

So while trying to get to the ones who actually did the crime its oks to have collateral damage?   

[CptEdwardKenway]

The damage is already done. It's their problem. And I don't believe there is only one or two players involved. Everyone who knew about this is guilty. So the number of players who actually can be punished is far less than the number of players who would deserve punishment. So every account and every IP involved to this alt accounts and gold transfers need to get punished.

 

If you make a bank robbery and you are the driver you are also guilty. Simple as that.

Edited March 10, 2016 by CptEdwardKenway

[Musuko42]

what does 1 blocked port actually affect in this game other than causing people to get really butt-hurt about it?

 

I bought the game to play it and have fun. Being screwed over by cheaters and exploiters is not fun. If I'm not having fun, I'll stop playing. If enough others think the same way I do, the game will empty out and die, becoming yet another dead MMO. That's how it affects the game.

 

The actions of these few exploiters meant that about 30 odd British players, and maybe as many Spanish players, got robbed of a few hours of PVP fun. That's maybe 60-odd people, who all got together at the same time, spending their limited leisure time (because most of us do have jobs and other commitments), and had their fun spoiled by a few cretins.

 

That's why we're "butthurt" about it. Not because we didn't get to win the port; because we didn't get the chance to have fun trying to take it.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Musuko42

[maturin]

A 'meh' on all your houses.

 

There has already been far more energy spent whining about this utterly pointless port in the middle of nowhere, than was ever spent on trying to take it. Especially when the British have had half a dozen chances to attack it unmolested since then. If the punishment were to fit the crime, a 24-hour time-out would be in order.*

 

And on the other side of the coin, everyone with half a brain had already foreseen this exploit. No one was doing anyone a service by demonstrating it in practice. Pretty sure I've already written several posts on how to limit flags while avoiding this precise type of skullduggery.

 

 

 

 

*It's the apparent hiding of tracks that is the more severe offense. If I were the devs I would call for he perpetrator to confess in private or face a sterner punishment.

[Musuko42]

There has already been far more energy spent whining about this utterly pointless port in the middle of nowhere, than was ever spent on trying to take it. Especially when the British have had half a dozen chances to attack it unmolested since then. If the punishment were to fit the crime, a 24-hour time-out would be in order.*

 

It's not about the port. It's about dozens of people having their fun spoiled by a few individuals who care more about winning then they do about playing the game. There may have been other chances to take it, but that doesn't change the fact that a whole bunch of people managed to get online at the same time, some of whom might have limited leisure time to spend, and instead of getting the port battle and all the PVP joy that goes with it, they got their fun stolen by selfish cheaters.

 

I don't play GTA5 online any more because of cheaters and hackers ruining it. I'd hate to see it happen here.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Musuko42

[jodgi]

Yay, maturin!

---

Question is whether people want to plug the hole/fix the problem or if they're content with frying this particular individual.

I've already figured out how to do this without any trace to my main account while still feeding the flag money from it. Have fun with your torches and pitchforks.

[Powderhorn]

A precedent of code-based solutions to exploits means that exploiters will always have free reign until a patch is released. This places the onus for preventing exploits on the developers, not on the players own self restraint.

I want developers focusing their time on developing, not dealing with finding every way to exploit the game and patching that. There will always be exploits and exploiters. Their heads should be metaphorically mounted on pikes.

Jodgi, I hope you have reported it.

[Nalyd]

Yay, maturin!

---

Question is whether people want to plug the hole/fix the problem or if they're content with frying this particular individual.

I've already figured out how to do this without any trace to my main account while still feeding the flag money from it. Have fun with your torches and pitchforks.

 

Because obviously, fixing the problem and still punishing the offender is not possible it would be antinomic, oh wait...

 

As for the punishment, ban the obvious alt accounts like heyhey and neverdie.

Trace the gold exchange to the main account of the offender, ban any additional alt accounts you could find on the way that served as intermediary.

And for the main account, reset XP and gold count + name and shame.

 

Any new offender after that should get a ban. 

[jodgi]

Jodgi, I hope you have reported it.

Ech, it's nothing fancy. You can just use the economy, in many ways, to create a layer of deniability between your scumbag and main account.

I don't do this stuff. I don't think about ways to ruin RvR or people's gaming sessions. Just think what accidental or habitual assholes can come up with!

I don't believe in the efficacy of punishing perpetrators and hoping that will be a deterrent for future shenanigans by others.

To be perfectly honest, this lynchmob annoys me more than our offender.

[Jack Marslow]

A 'meh' on all your houses.

 

There has already been far more energy spent whining about this utterly pointless port in the middle of nowhere, than was ever spent on trying to take it. Especially when the British have had half a dozen chances to attack it unmolested since then. If the punishment were to fit the crime, a 24-hour time-out would be in order.*

 

And on the other side of the coin, everyone with half a brain had already foreseen this exploit. No one was doing anyone a service by demonstrating it in practice. Pretty sure I've already written several posts on how to limit flags while avoiding this precise type of skullduggery.

 

 

 

 

*It's the apparent hiding of tracks that is the more severe offense. If I were the devs I would call for he perpetrator to confess in private or face a sterner punishment.

 

Plenty of time was spent on trying to capture the port. It was captured by the Spanish in a surprise raid on Sunday.

 

Monday the British attacked (and found out that the ring of death doesn't actually do anything to prevent defenders from running away as long as its in the last 10 minutes). This issue was then reported on the forums. The battle its self was VERY fun. We all had a great time. 

 

So Tuesday roles around, and we are all ready for another fight. Hopefully contested. Hopefully another fun fight. We set up a blockade to prevent Spain from buying flags on ports with no timers in the Yucatan. However the Spanish bought a flag for Sigueana an hour before we were to attack Misteriosa. On Monday I had purchased the flag for that port my self, died in the shallow water port battle there, respawned at Barcos and rushed off to fight at Misteriosa. I forgot to set the timer. Noob move. Lucky for me several players in the area delayed the flag until time out. I owe those players a few beers. So now that the Spanish are off to the north, and their cutter scouts have reported we are blockading Misteriosa we ready for the hour to tick over to buy the flag. Either the Spanish were off balance from the attempt to take Sigueana, or didn't have enough players on line. Either or, someone bought a flag to prevent the battle from ever starting. 

 

Today the British fleet again assembled, and this time we had several players waiting to buy the flag. We got the flag, attacked the port, had a fun battle, and won. 

 

There were no "half a dozen chances" to take it. There were 3. The first was a loss, the second an exploit prevented it, and the third we captured it. Nor was it "utterly pointless". It was a strategic port from which Spain could attack in any direction on ports that had no timers set. It was of utmost importance that it be retaken. 

 

The crime is not using an exploit everyone knew about. It is that it was done to grief 45+ players who just spent a good portion of their day blocking the port, ready for battle, and wasting their time. It was done with clear planning and intent. I heavily suspect the Spanish could not get to Misteriosa in time after the loss of the Siguenea flag. Of this I have no proof of course. The exploit was done in a heinous way.  Using a known exploit in any game is reason enough for a ban. The only reason this exploit hasn't been used before, is because everyone knows what a scum move it is. The person who did this cheated, knowing full well the implications of his actions, and then attempted to hide the evidence. 

 

I very much hope the devs find the person who did this and name and shame them, then ban them. This is the kind of behavior that destroys game communities. 

[Cossack]

I vote perm ban.

 

However should mercy be shown at the very least the main account should be wiped. All assets and gold/xp reset, This sort of toxic behavior can ruin great games like this, 

[Stix]

Wiping his account or a long term ban looses us a player for good. He paid his money to play and found an exploit. A harsh warning should suffice.

[The Great One]

as bad as this is what going to stop them from finding someone who in the nation and bribing him to buy the flag so you guys cant buy the flag what you guys going to do then get him banned for being a traitor. Its something that is possible and can be done. So i say nothing should be done cause if your going to take ports make sure you dont let people know cause there always be spys

[Slamz]

Wiping his account or a long term ban looses us a player for good. He paid his money to play and found an exploit. A harsh warning should suffice.

 

My experience in gaming says that if you catch someone doing something bad once, it's because they did another dozen things just as bad that you didn't catch. There's a certain mindset at work that's almost certainly not going to change because you warned them. Frankly they'll probably keep that mindset for life, into every game they play.

 

Losing them is usually a perk and an improvement to the community.

 

I don't believe in the efficacy of punishing perpetrators and hoping that will be a deterrent for future shenanigans by others.

 

And again based on my experience in online gaming, NOT punishing perpetrators will literally cause the demise of the entire community.

 

The only times I've seen communities get saved is when word gets around that "if you do this sort of thing, they can detect it and you will get banned". Otherwise, it always gets worse. Don't underestimate the damage that can be done by trolls, griefers and script kiddies. You're probably thinking this is just one guy, doing just one thing, but what we're really establishing here is precedent for a whole lot more of the same.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Slamz