Policy on Late Galleys/Half Galleys ect?

[Fluffy Fishy]

Hi, I'm not sure if its appropriate to post this here but what is the game policy on plans to galleys and half galleys, while they don't quite fit in to the game in its current state the shallow draft galleys and half galleys might add some interesting developments to shallow water combat, I personally would love to sail one as the late galleys look incredible in my opinion. I do have some plans for some mid 18th century galleys I am able to post, I will likely post them anyway but it would be nice to know whether to get my hopes up or not

[Arvenski]

I'm not sure why they wouldn't be introduced into the game, if they're within its time period.

[Fluffy Fishy]

I'm not sure why they wouldn't be introduced into the game, if they're within its time period.

 

They weren't extensively used in the Caribbean so they would look a little out of place right now half galleys occasionally made it out to the area but Galleys tended to be used in more inland seas like the Mediterranean and the Baltic although they did appear as traders and fighting ships along the atlantic coast too. I have a plan for a galley from the mid 18th century, it would be nice to see something like that in the game if you ask me

[Tennessee88]

Would love to see them in game, although you are right in that they would seem odd in the Caribbean. Perhaps as an AI port defense. Could be nasty things in a group, typically bearing a large caliber gun in the bow and able to move independently of the wind. 

[Arvenski]

That sounds fair enough (I guess), but we should be allowed to capture them, though. That way, they might not be as common as other vessels (that are craftable/purchasable), but players could still get their hands on them if they wanted. 

[Fluffy Fishy]

Well it could be quite easily balanced that because the galleys and half galleys needed lighter woods for construction they could be a bit weaker, to my knowledge most galleys were made of woods like cypress pine, while not a weak wood its not exactly as resilient as oak.

[Tennessee88]

Well it could be quite easily balanced that because the galleys and half galleys needed lighter woods for construction they could be a bit weaker, to my knowledge most galleys were made of woods like cypress pine, while not a weak wood its not exactly as resilient as oak.

 

Been quite awhile since I have gotten to dig my head into relevant books, but yes I believe they weren't exactly apt for taking a beating. Also, with the game as it is, it isn't like they will be the most deadly thing to encounter. The only reason I would argue for rarity is that they really weren't common outside the Med. 

[meatpukk]

Galleys and galley-frigates, were extensively used in northern europe/baltics in mid 18th century.

everything from ship rigged galleys

 

 

 

 

to the more common lateen rigged galleys of mediterrenean origins

 

 

oars would create some cool possibilities I thinkl. especially in coastal archipellagio battles, and low wind conditions.

but as have been said. the caribbean probably didnt see many of them

[Fluffy Fishy]

Nice models, thanks

[Wicked Mouse]

Galleys and galley-frigates, were extensively used in northern europe/baltics in mid 18th century.

[...]

Wait, that thing has a rudder on the front as well as the rear? Interesting concept

[Fluffy Fishy]

Bow rudders are great, they turn you more efficiently than stern rudders at the cost of more drag than the stern and therefore speed.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Arvenski]

Good luck sinking something when all you've got are three bow chasers, though. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Arvenski

[meatpukk]

Good luck sinking something when all you've got are three bow chasers, though. 

boarding

 

 

heres one with 12 pounders on rotating carriages

[Shepherd]

Those three bow chasers are very pretty on the lateen galley above, but goodness what is that last one even carrying?! Is there a top view to get a better idea of how those side guns are arranged?

 

boarding

 

 

heres one with 12 pounders on rotating carriages

[meatpukk]

Those three bow chasers are very pretty on the lateen galley above, but goodness what is that last one even carrying?! Is there a top view to get a better idea of how those side guns are arranged?

 

 

they're carried in the middle as you can see

[Fluffy Fishy]

You might be getting mixed up by the rowing benches at the sides, they looked little gun like in the first picture

[SteelSandwich]

I have no knowledge of galleys, so maybe someone can help me with some questions.

 

What is average speed with sails, what is the average speed with oars?

Heel? Handling?

etc.

[kumisz]

Galleys would bring a whole new dimension, althrough I don't know if it is possible to implement the pulse-like propulsion on the oars.

 

Interesting thing, even if not real world: in the Song of Ice and Fire, there are some sea battles and a very common thing that gets mentioned is that the galleys lose oars due to ramming. Like, a big war galley has lost all of its left side oars and is crippled in the middle of the battle, and in that case, losing that ship is imminent.

 

So, to be able to avoid that, we should be able to retract the oars to spare them.

[Fluffy Fishy]

I have no knowledge of galleys, so maybe someone can help me with some questions.

 

What is average speed with sails, what is the average speed with oars?

Heel? Handling?

etc.

Depends entirely on what kind of galley it is and what its meant for, where it was built, how many men to a bench and the general construction and rigging. generally the ones built in the med were made of wood like cypress. There are 3 main distinctions used from late medieval up until they stopped being used, you have light galleys, galleys and great galleys. Galleys were the all round craft which could be used for trading and usually had 3 men to a rowing bench, light galleys were combat specific and formed the majority of fleets, again usually with 3 men to a bench then there are the great galleys which generally had 4 men but occasionally had 5.

Dimensions wise light galleys and galleys were similar to the Niagara in the game, while the great galleys were roughly similar size as a frigate like the surprise or the belle although these examples would have been slightly bigger than their galley counterparts. A light galley with a skilled crew could usually reach about 10-12kn under oar but would struggle to keep this up for more than around 20-30 minutes. A galley or a great galley could generally get up to about 8-10 but you can add on some wind for a boost of about 2-3knots if it was under sail and oar combination. Under sails alone it depends if they were lateened or squared, generally they would carry both and use the square sail for longer journeys and the triangle for battle or port hopping, if I were to put it in the game I would just fit them with lateen rigging.

Under a square they would heel quite a lot, not so much under a triangular sail and with the oars out it gave them quite a bit of stability a bit like a tightrope walker using a pole. when it comes to handling again it depends on lots of factors, some of them were built for straight line speed some of them for turning, again the oars would play a big part in their turning speed. as a vague example a french or genoan galley would usually be built with a deeper draft and be a little less handy compared to a shallow draft venetian galley but speed was fairly constant throughout all nations, the trade off with the shallow draft was met with a slightly wider boat which heeled a bit more but it was a compromise they were more than willing to make.

Does this help or would you like more detail ?

[meatpukk]

max speed of rowing without any sled is around 10 knots. ancient galley had a crusing speed of 7-8, approaching 10 in a sprint.

early modern era galleys werent built of light materials and were even slower. 3-5 knots.

the hybrids traded even more speed for better sailing performance, firepower and crew comfort, and had speeds under oars of 1-2 knots.

 

the sailing speed of normal galleys were probably horrible.

the hybrid galley frigates, had the speed under sail of regular sailing ships.

"løvendals galley" was considered one of the fastest ships in kattegat.

 

in 18th century oars were mostly used for manouvering, to get the guns to bear, and everyone had abandoned the concept except for sweden/russia in europe. smaller gunboats etc were more effective.

[Arvenski]

Interesting thing, even if not real world: in the Song of Ice and Fire, there are some sea battles and a very common thing that gets mentioned is that the galleys lose oars due to ramming. Like, a big war galley has lost all of its left side oars and is crippled in the middle of the battle, and in that case, losing that ship is imminent.

 

So, to be able to avoid that, we should be able to retract the oars to spare them.

I remember reading in a history book (not one specifically about naval warfare; just one about the ancient world, so this may be wrong)) once that the ancient Greeks used that as a battle tactic: the famous way for them to sink a ship was to ram it broadside, but they also would charge at a ship and then turn parallel to it and retract their oars, gliding alongside the enemy ship and breaking its oars on the one side. Then it could be boarded or finished off at will. 

[SteelSandwich]

Thank you very much for the elaborate replies! Quite interesting i must admit.

[Fluffy Fishy]

max speed of rowing without any sled is around 10 knots. ancient galley had a crusing speed of 7-8, approaching 10 in a sprint.

early modern era galleys werent built of light materials and were even slower. 3-5 knots.

the hybrids traded even more speed for better sailing performance, firepower and crew comfort, and had speeds under oars of 1-2 knots.

 

the sailing speed of normal galleys were probably horrible.

the hybrid galley frigates, had the speed under sail of regular sailing ships.

"løvendals galley" was considered one of the fastest ships in kattegat.

 

in 18th century oars were mostly used for manouvering, to get the guns to bear, and everyone had abandoned the concept except for sweden/russia in europe. smaller gunboats etc were more effective.

 

Which are you basing this off the north and baltic sea galleys? The sailing or oar speed wasn't horrible in the med, where even the construction was moved towards lighter weight measures to improve speed, production of more speed based galleys generally overtook the speed of the ancients, being almost 2000 years between the tech, there was almost no point of a 2-3kn ship. I get that I am basing my numbers mostly off the Venetian galleys where speed was essential and some of them were known to be able to dig into the sea for tighter turning, but the difference in your data is staggering.

[meatpukk]

Which are you basing this off the north and baltic sea galleys? The sailing or oar speed wasn't horrible in the med, where even the construction was moved towards lighter weight measures to improve speed, production of more speed based galleys generally overtook the speed of the ancients, being almost 2000 years between the tech, there was almost no point of a 2-3kn ship. I get that I am basing my numbers mostly off the Venetian galleys where speed was essential and some of them were known to be able to dig into the sea for tighter turning, but the difference in your data is staggering.

 

the point of oars in the baltic was manouverability, not speed. sailing ships were faster in most conditions so speed wasnt a priority.

the greek and roman galleys were the fastest ones approaching 10 knots which are the max with oars and fixed rowers.

the speeds I stated are based on late 18th century swedish galleys, in the archepelago fleet. also from the replica trireme olympias.

 

remember that when cannons arrived they didnt need the high speeds to cause damage from ramming. cannons, guns and musket fire was a game changer.

wiki states a max speed under sail 8-9 knots for galleys.

another thing that would have caused poorer performance, was that they used slaves instead of professional rowers.

 

I don't know much about the venetian galleys specifically, but I doubt they were too different from the rest of them.

the thing about baltic and north sea galleys, is that its the only place galleys were employed in the games time period.

[Fluffy Fishy]

The speed drive in the med wasnt driven by ramming it was about being able to cope with battles in low winds where manoeuvrability and speed by oar made the difference between win or lose. Even before the switching to the arquebus most the battles were fought with crossbows and boarding not ramming, rams were for the most part taken out of use because they basically sacrificed ships with little benefit in combat.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy