Pirate Economy

[Poe]

In my opinion pirates shouldn't be able to craft anything larger then the pirate frigate and only capture as high as a 3rd rate.  

 

If they want to apply a realistic approach to who had what ships in the area during this time frame I am alright with it.  No really, unfortunately all the nationals seam to think that that will gimp pirates, but it will most assuredly gimp them worse. The national powers at the time didn't put those massive investments of currency towards chasing pirates, they chased them in frigates and brigs and sloops of war.  The same ships that the pirates caught used and refit.  if done "realistically" that would do far more to level the playing field than give the nationals any kind of ship advantage over the pirates.

 

As the only place to build a good sized ship in the Caribbean was Havana they should make it a major pain in the ass (quests maybe?) for the Nationals to get frigates and the like over here and just use a slow drip of 4th and 3rd rates in that way as opposed to having everyone being able to cut ships of the line as they choose.  If a pirate can steal one good on them but the concept of everyone building massive warships to fight in the Caribbean, while popular in movies, is factually wrong.

 

Course I also wish they would just get rid of all the NPC's anyway, make the game more pvp and less grind.  But that could just be me being wishful.

[Ampen]

If they want to apply a realistic approach to who had what ships in the area during this time frame I am alright with it.  No really, unfortunately all the nationals seam to think that that will gimp pirates, but it will most assuredly gimp them worse. The national powers at the time didn't put those massive investments of currency towards chasing pirates, they chased them in frigates and brigs and sloops of war.  The same ships that the pirates caught used and refit.  if done "realistically" that would do far more to level the playing field than give the nationals any kind of ship advantage over the pirates.

 

As the only place to build a good sized ship in the Caribbean was Havana they should make it a major pain in the ass (quests maybe?) for the Nationals to get frigates and the like over here and just use a slow drip of 4th and 3rd rates in that way as opposed to having everyone being able to cut ships of the line as they choose.  If a pirate can steal one good on them but the concept of everyone building massive warships to fight in the Caribbean, while popular in movies, is factually wrong.

 

Course I also wish they would just get rid of all the NPC's anyway, make the game more pvp and less grind.  But that could just be me being wishful.

 

Difference between nations and pirates would be that nations could have massed up the infrastructure to actually make bigger ships in the caribbean if they'd wanted to do that. So realistically, nationals could do it, while the pirates never was even close.

 

Now, about ships though, if the pirates were confined to certain ships or certain crew levels, the difference in ships between them and nationals would still be a non-issue. If pirates would be in frigates, I fail to see nationals would use 2nd- or 1st-rates to hunt them down. Out of necessity they would use frigates themselves mainly.

 

Rates on the other hand would be used for clashes over ports and other major conflicts between nations.

 

Now, this would mean the pirates would add for a new dimension, since if they could use neutral ports f.x., they would be a hazzle to say the least for traders. There would be a definite risk pirates was around.

This in turn would create the need for the nation to either leave the pirates be and accept a toll on trade etc from pirates, or create forces to police them, wich would merit strike forces made up of small and mid-range ships.

On top of that there would also be the evil foreigners of other nations that needed to be handled, so the need for a organized large force of high-range ships would be needed as well.

[Babble]

 they chased them in frigates and brigs and sloops of war.  The same ships that the pirates caught used and refit.  if done "realistically" that would do far more to level the playing field than give the nationals any kind of ship advantage over the pirates.

 

  If a pirate can steal one good on them but the concept of everyone building massive warships to fight in the Caribbean, while popular in movies, is factually wrong.

 

Course I also wish they would just get rid of all the NPC's anyway, make the game more pvp and less grind.  But that could just be me being wishful.

not disagreeing.   In my opinion rated ships should be used mostly for port battle.  Line fighting.  Not hunting rats or being used by privateers.

 

I'm partially of the opinion that the largest ships are currently far too maneuverable.  Watching a Constitution turn through the wind as fast as a snow or mercury is kinda silly.    

 

I think small boats should play a larger roll and would, if it became more difficult to turn on a dime in the largest boats in game.  Those large boats mainly fought in lines and had the protection of numbers.  Catching a Constitution sized ship alone on the OS in something like a snow should be a potentially winnable fight.

 

As it stands unless the Constitution captain is inexperienced its simply unwinnable.   They turn nearly as fast as a snow even through the wind.   Rendering a stern camp nearly impossible.

 

This renders small frigates merely a stepping stone to the larger ones and useless in everything but a shallow water PB.

[Taralin Snow]

I am in favor of allowing pirates to capture and sail anything they can get their hands on.  And I'm in favor of allowing them to use those ships to foul things up for the nationals, for example by raiding their ports and flipping them to neutral.  As a Frenchman, why would I have any objection to pirates turning the ports of our hated enemies neutral?  And if you dare accuse me of paying the pirates to do so, I will have you know that was a ransom payment to secure the safe return of my kidnapped cousin, nothing more.

 

Also, regarding the idea of murdering your way into the pirate biz, how about this:  you start as a national, then kill some number x of your own teammates (and I like the idea of having to kill players rather than NPCs).  anyway, once you do that you appear as a "pirate" to players of that nation, but you appear as "neutral" to all other nations.  in order to appear as a pirate to other nations, you need to kill some of their people too.  maybe if there's some kind of diplomacy mechanic you might appear as "fugitive" or "pirate" to allies of nations you've betrayed.

 

So if indiscriminate mayhem is your thing, murder everybody and be flagged as a pirate to every national player.  But if you choose more carefully you can be declared by the British as a pirate, and still find yourself flagged as neutral by the Dutch and the French.  and if neutral players were allowed to enter ports, I could see a pirate making a nice side income as a smuggler, using their 'neutral' status to get into ports a national player can't.  But for this to work there would need to be a lot of national navy NPCs sailing around looking for pirates.  Otherwise everybody who aspires to be a smuggler (aka "free trader") would just pick some faraway underpopulated faction to betray, and what would be the risk there?  If there aren't any Swedish players hunting pirates in the Yucatan, there should at least be Swedish Navy NPCs there, tasked to bring Swedish murderers to justice, by noose, sword or cannonball.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Taralin Snow

[Prater]

not disagreeing. In my opinion rated ships should be used mostly for port battle. Line fighting. Not hunting rats or being used by privateers.

I'm partially of the opinion that the largest ships are currently far too maneuverable. Watching a Constitution turn through the wind as fast as a snow or mercury is kinda silly.

I think small boats should play a larger roll and would, if it became more difficult to turn on a dime in the largest boats in game. Those large boats mainly fought in lines and had the protection of numbers. Catching a Constitution sized ship alone on the OS in something like a snow should be a potentially winnable fight.

As it stands unless the Constitution captain is inexperienced its simply unwinnable. They turn nearly as fast as a snow even through the wind. Rendering a stern camp nearly impossible.

This renders small frigates merely a stepping stone to the larger ones and useless in everything but a shallow water PB.

Who are you fighting? The Coni turns like a sol. The AI cheat and have turning buffs. No frigate turns like a brig or snow.

[KrakkenSmacken]

not disagreeing.   In my opinion rated ships should be used mostly for port battle.  Line fighting.  Not hunting rats or being used by privateers.

 

I'm partially of the opinion that the largest ships are currently far too maneuverable.  Watching a Constitution turn through the wind as fast as a snow or mercury is kinda silly.    

 

I think small boats should play a larger roll and would, if it became more difficult to turn on a dime in the largest boats in game.  Those large boats mainly fought in lines and had the protection of numbers.  Catching a Constitution sized ship alone on the OS in something like a snow should be a potentially winnable fight.

 

As it stands unless the Constitution captain is inexperienced its simply unwinnable.   They turn nearly as fast as a snow even through the wind.   Rendering a stern camp nearly impossible.

 

This renders small frigates merely a stepping stone to the larger ones and useless in everything but a shallow water PB.

Maybe what is needed to facilitate this is for there to be different strengths of wind.  

 

Then the heavy ships would get locked in irons easier or even end up fully becalmed, and be much harder and more strategic to manage in light wind.

 

There should be times when the largest ship is the WORST thing you could bring to a fight.

[eriks]

Difference between nations and pirates would be that nations could have massed up the infrastructure to actually make bigger ships in the caribbean if they'd wanted to do that. So realistically, nationals could do it, while the pirates never was even close.

 

 

 

You are hitting on the real flaw here.

 

No no nation (or pirate band) built new warships off the spoils of war. Warships were built off of borrowed funds and taxing an national economy.

[Bigvalco]

How about brainstorming some interesting ways of changing the Pirates, other than removing things? I'd love to hear some Ideas personally.

[Walwin]

I started right off as a pirate when I bought the game because it is supposed to be kinda challenging. People claiming to make us 'unique' by taking our ability to participate in two major parts of the game, Half-decent ships and Conquest, must have lost a port to the pirates or got their ship sunk by them. I'm sure there is a way of making the pirates more realistic that everyone benefits from but its not done with simply making is weak. That is just ruining our fun at this game because we wouldn't even nearly stand a chance against any players trading gold and being guarded by a fleet of 3rd or 2nd rates because the the Pirate Frigate as it is right now is not on a competitive level, you can use it in PVE but in PVP I'd even rather step down to a Surprise. I know some people want it to be as realistic as possible but it will never satisfie every nation. The dev's would have to reset the spanish ports every month because only few players decided to play as Spain and they aren't able to keep their ports together but they were able to in reality. That's the thing about an OW game with a conquest mode as it is developing itself by the players decisions.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Walwin

[William the Drake]

How about brainstorming some interesting ways of changing the Pirates, other than removing things? I'd love to hear some Ideas personally.

 

I started right off as a pirate when I bought the game because it is supposed to be kinda challenging.  I'm sure there is a way of making the pirates more realistic that everyone benefits from but its not done with simply making is weak.

 

I believe you gentlemen have a misconception of what "unique" means. Unique doesn't necessarily mean "Base content + extra stuff" on the contrary, a truly unique faction would be one that looks or works nothing like the other factions in the game. A truly unique pirate mechanic would be able to operate independently of large scale national politics, not be apart of it. 

And it's only logical, as the pirate mindset is purely instant gratification: plunder gold and then turn right around and spend it on booze and women. Pirate gameplay should reflect that mentality, not planning grand strategies to conquer numerous ports or setting up huge economic powerhouses. That's national stuff. If you want to do those sort of things, then the answer is simple: play a nation. 

This is what we mean when we say we want pirates to be unique, not just some under-powered carbon copy of a nation a la PotBS. Pirates should almost be a completely other game when it comes to the mechanics. Almost. And this is what most pirates promoting the "unique" approach (including myself) are gunning for.

 

People claiming to make us 'unique' by taking our ability to participate in two major parts of the game, Half-decent ships and Conquest, must have lost a port to the pirates or got their ship sunk by them. 

 

Retort:

First and foremost: This comes up every time there is a major pirate discussion, and it is just plain false. Almost never, 99.9% of the time no one, I repeat no one is proposing that pirates not be allowed to pilot large(er) ships. Perhaps limits on producing them, but not piloting them. This is almost always brought up by pirates who actually want to be Nats as an argument that people want to nerf pirates. It's not, and they don'. So stop it!

Edited February 26, 2016 by William the Drake

[Walwin]

And it's only logical, as the pirate mindset is purely instant gratification: plunder gold and then turn right around and spend it on booze and women. Pirate gameplay should reflect that mentality, not planning grand strategies to conquer numerous ports or setting up huge economic powerhouses

 

That implies to have everything on the most realistic level but it is not. The spanish are losing all their ports in a row because there isn't enough players and they don't seem to be organizing properly. In the history it was different. Pirates have now claimed ports as their own and manage to organize stuff. In the history it was different. You can't just set a nation to be the best and another one to be the worst just because it's been like that in history. The ingame society and economy are evolving on their own.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Walwin

[Prater]

If pirates are going to be a nation, they need to have the pirate benefits they have removed, otherwise, they need to be balanced so that every benefit has a disadvantage.

 

Such as the Pirate Frigate having the benefits it has, but a step down in how heavy guns it can carry at the same time.