Historical Age Of Sail Maneuvering During Battle

[FLGibsonJr]

http://www.history.navy.mil/ussconstitution/history.html

This link shows maneuvering during several of the USS Constitution's battles, I thought it would be a good reference for the developers and interesting to everyone else. I found the maneuvering versus the HMS Java to be especially interesting.

Regards,

Gibson

[admin]

Thanks

Java maneuvers are awesome. 

btw.. why raking fire from Java did so little damage to Constitution?

 

ps. Constitution will be in the game. 

[Digby]

Constitution will be in the game. 

Does this mean you have decided on a timeframe for the game?

[admin]

Does this mean you have decided on a timeframe for the game?

most famous ships will be in the game

[FLGibsonJr]

It is great to hear that the USS Constitutuion will be included in the game!!! I know one of the reasons she withstood punishment well, is her hull is constructed of live oak, which is especially strong. My son and I won a lottery and were able to sail on her during a turn around sail years ago. It was very memorable and a substantial part of her is still original, she still has on her captured British guns with the royal seal on them.

Regards,

Gibson

[admin]

I visited this ship myself many times..  it is spectacular

[Digby]

most famous ships will be in the game

Hm, so ships from completely different eras? That's disappointing. Will they be kept separate in separate eras or will they all be available side by side in the main game world?

Will players still have a 'tech tree' to be able to add improvements to the ships, such that everyone starts with a basic level of technology and it can be improved?

[admin]

Hm, so ships from completely different eras? That's disappointing. Will they be kept separate in separate eras or will they all be available side by side in the main game world?

 

 

Yamato and Monitor will not be in the game - a 100% guarantee.

[Digby]

Humour isn't helping here.

 

Please be serious and respond to your players concerns. Thanks.

 

By having ships in the game from the very end of the era (whose performances must make sense for that ship) you are kissing goodbye to a whole 100+ years of more interesting naval warfare. If your game was set in, say, the 1740s, before even the frigate as Nelson knew it was in service, you give your players a game world which grows and develops and in which new technologies and ship designs can realistically and logically be introduced as the game goes on. With no true frigates in the 1740s the naval factions will also have a more awkward time combating pirates. One of several issues that spelled the end of mass piracy was the frigate design, pirates had no counter to it.

[admin]

It was an extremely serious post actually .  We don't know have answers on many questions and focus only on combat mechanics now. 

 

One important thing - We know that some players will be unhappy with the game as you can't please everyone and we are not even trying to, as it will kill the project. Game development industry is littered with ruins of game developers who tried to please everybody. And with those who promise more than needed or more than they can deliver. That't why the promise with Yamato. This is known and we can definitely guarantee that and talk about that. the rest is out of scope of our current focus. 

[FLGibsonJr]

I like having as large as possible selection of naval ships, especially for the version of the game where you will be able to recreate certain period battles. It is great to hear that most of the famous ships will be covered.

[BungeeLemming]

USS Constitution in Naval Action.. I wonder how to balance this ship to other Frigates.

Those few Frigates made after the 44 gun-ship scratch are so powerful compared to British or french frigates of that time..

I mean: They are armored like Lineships and carry 24 pound cannons on their main batterie.. on the topdeck masses of carronades.

 

btw: that side is very dissatisfying in terms of shipcombat. But I guess thats because its not made for the Shipcombat freak like I am one..

Ive GOT to find the page where you can read tons of shipcombat sceneries in the Napoleonic aera of time. Ill post it as soon as I can find her. Sadly I couldnt track her for months..

 

edit:

I finally found it:

http://pellewserbe.pe.ohost.de/schiffe.html

 

But I fear its german only. You can read reports of British and French Commanders in some battles.

They are documented very good with precise chronology..

If you read them, have fun.

Also you can find a List of ships wich are included in the page's content.(Its where I have all my names for my potbs-ships) http://home.arcor.de/thomas_siebe/schiffname.html

[Digby]

It was an extremely serious post actually .  We don't know have answers on many questions and focus only on combat mechanics now. 

 

One important thing - We know that some players will be unhappy with the game as you can't please everyone and we are not even trying to, as it will kill the project. Game development industry is littered with ruins of game developers who tried to please everybody. And with those who promise more than needed or more than they can deliver. That't why the promise with Yamato. This is known and we can definitely guarantee that and talk about that. the rest is out of scope of our current focus. 

All I am suggesting is - and it is only a suggestion - that you don't go for the famous ships just because they are famous, or the plans are easy to get hold of and end up with a mess of ships from all across the history of the age of sail - but you choose a starting point in history because its interesting and because the naval powers at that time are more balanced then set your world game running from that point. I think a very good point to set the clock running is about 1740 for the following reasons:

 

1) Piracy still happening quite a bit - not as much as the 1600s but still some. There was literaly zero when Constitution was launched.

2) British, French, Spanish fleets very much equal. The British dominance of the end of he century isn't there at this time and both Spain and France have strong ships and good commanders so a balanced world is easy to set up. Dutch less so but still with some seapower.

3) More primitive political power projection. After Britain's and France's experiences in the SYW and AWI they learned to handle distant conflicts and colonial interests and trade much more effectively. Prior to those wars they didn't so the independent traders and mercenary guild type players have more clout and the colony ownership setup is much more fragile with frelancing and illicit trading going on under less professional and scrupulous governors noses. The whole colonial world was more like a wild frontier prior to the 1790s. Then it began to get seriously more organised.

4) No true frigate existed in 1740. The type was developed over the next 20 years and I think a game without this critical ship type in would be extremely interesting since again, it helps the pirate types and makes life tougher for the nation/state/fleet players.

5) Technology was advancing but not quite there yet so you could concievably still have ships steered by whipstaff instead of wheel and make that a technology advance, likewise coppering, flintlock gun firing, spritsail deletion, general rig improvements and a few other interesting developments could be in the game and make complete sense in the timeframe.

6) Battleships are smaller and in my view, more interesting. The 74 hasn't reached the pinnacle of its power yet and are rare. Mostly they stay in European waters. Out in foreign waters the 64 and similar ships (62s 60s) are common with the 90s as admirals flagships. You get a lot of 48s, 50s, 54s and 56s, strange but fun vessels and also the old style 40/44 "frigate" which wasn't but had 2 gun decks, usually 12pdrs over 18pdrs so they were not good sailors (being high sided for their length) and their gun weight was low. They were not good ships until someone suggested slicing the top gun deck off and the true frigate was born with an all 18pdr armament. Below the 2-deck 40/44 was a big gap down to the 20/24/26 gun sloops. So the whole 32/36/38 gun single deck ship class that made life so short and nasty for many pirates isn't there and piracy can flourish.

 

The whole early period is more pirate friendly and more suited to an MMO setting that encourages sneaky dealings, clever trading and cunning technology advances. And it has the more interesting vessels too.

 

Constitution is such a game-breaking ship. Faster than anything that outguns her and stronger than anything that is faster. Your game will end up with 100s of Constitutions on the high seas and nothing else.

 

Please give it some thought. You don't have to specify any actual year or have a game calendar running, just say the game is set in the 1740s or 1750s and it will all make sense.

[admin]

Constitution is just a super frigate class ship. It (she) crowns the evolution ranks of frigates. But it is not a top frigate and it is not as overpowered as you present it.

 

I doubt it is the fastest frigate with this armament

Certain 40+ gun French and English designs were 2 knots faster according to this 

http://www.amazon.com/Frigates-Napoleonic-Wars-Robert-Gardiner/dp/1591142830/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375481984&sr=8-1&keywords=frigates+of+the+napoleonic+wars -

HMS Endymion could make up to 15 knots (42gun), HMS Liverpool 14.5 knots (44 gun), French Hebe, Leda class, And some other frigs are better based on their technical descriptions. And in reality they had more guns as those were not counted in rating system before 1817.

Faster HMS Leander (50 gun, but really 60 gun) almost caught Constitution. captured 2 ships that were in Constitution squadron, but Constitution escaped. And then treaty of Ghent was signed and war was over.

 

I doubt it is the strongest frigate.

Full carronade armed HMS Rainbow or HMS Glatton would probably two shot Constitution to surrender, I am not even talking about ships of the line.

 

Players

Lot's of people will buy this game just because of the Constitution. 

[Verhoeven]

In a sandbox environment it would not be a big deal to have the Constitution. The host decides it. It would add another dimension if you play "what if....".

If it is in the open world superships like this should be rare and hard to get.

[Digby]

Players

Lot's of people will buy this game just because of the Constitution. 

That seems to sum this discussion up. Sales are more important than accuracy. I was hoping for better from this team.

[admin]

That seems to sum this discussion up. Sales are more important than accuracy. I was hoping for better from this team.

 

Naval Action is about Age of Sail combat. Constitution presence is not inaccurate because she was a battle frigate that saw real combat many times. Thus it must be in the game even if some people want to only sail Pinta and Nino.

[Verhoeven]

That seems to sum this discussion up. Sales are more important than accuracy. I was hoping for better from this team.

 

S! Martin,

 

Though they got to earn some money,I don't think this team is developing a money trap like the typcial mmo or dlc driven big companies. Actually I think it would be an quite accomplishment if they make it to publishing. And I hope they will. You really can't tell at this moment.

 

Historical realism just depends on the setting and context. So in a sandbox the host can set up what he wants. Actually I can imagine to play a bit with history. The What If's.... It's like an add on the game. It is so easy to set up a game without the Constitution, even if players can choose it from a list in the game lobby: just agree on it nobody chooses it.

 

I play a lot of M & B Warband Napoleonic (a fps napoleonic game). I used to be part of the 1st East Prussians. This clan was reenacting in the game. We developed how to manoeuvre, etc etc. We always fought in two ranks and kept as close to history as the game could offer. In the weekly line battles (125 vs 125) other regiments slowly began to copy our way of playing. Than the event organisers eventually came up with the rules how to behave in the event. So they adopted our formations as a rule and all agreed. So no lone wolfing, you have to fight in formation. No 'blob' formations. Double ranking was obligatory as long as you had enough men to do it. But also, not everybody could go skirmishers or arty. The event manager would decide how many could skirmish, how many canon, how many grenadier regiments, how many cav regiments, etc, etc.... Though 2 admins were controlling the battlefield to see the rules were obeyed, they hardly had to intervene. Commanders would either make sure their men respected the rules, and most people loved line battles that much they were willing to respect the game (if you want to see how it looks like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apk9dmiatYQ though it is played on a new dlc of warband now)

 

What I want to say is. If you organise events with a sandbox environment (maybe even on your own dedicated server) you can make the rules.

 

Now in the open world, after a while, you would always see players end up with end of the era technology. That is a matter of time and progress. It depends on how long the span of the era covered will be.

The only real thing you do to prevent seeying Constitutions and or some other behemoth everywhere, is to limit the numbers severely and to make it extremely difficult and expensive to capitalize on that technology or to build that ship. Bottom line, in an open world like this you really can't have historical accuracy. It may be so at the start, but it will get out of sync quickly.

 

Also, I think there is a lot of discussion about the mmo aspects of the game while the devs, at this point, are not busy with the mmo. They are working on the battle and sail engine. MMO is for later (which I am not going to play). I guess for them Constitution or not, is not the essence. It is more can they make the game or not.

[FLGibsonJr]

I am interested in the battle version of this game that the developers have mentioned would come first.  In that version of the game, having as many of the historic ships accurately portrayed like the USS Constitution, HMS Victory, etc etc are crucial and very important for this game to have.  I am very glad that they are pursuing historic ships in an accurate manner.

 

Regards,

 

Gibson

[Bladerunner]

I don't think having the Constitution would be such a big problem.

It is an amazing ship and i hope to see her in september when i visit Boston,

but can you see her in the line of battle against 3rd rate ships and survive?

You will always have a shiptype that ins better than the others.

If it is not the 44-gun frigate, it will be the 38-gun, which might just have 18 pounders,

but still more firepower than all other frigates.

Razeese, 44 and 48 gun ships might be a class offen their own and even be able to beat an old 4th rate,

but not unbeatable. Against a 3rd rate you woud be just lucky to be faster to get away.

[Malachi]

 

4) No true frigate existed in 1740. The type was developed over the next 20 years and I think a game without this critical ship type in would be extremely interesting since again, it helps the pirate types and makes life tougher for the nation/state/fleet players.

That´s not quite right. The french Medée was lanched in 1740 - which got captured by the RN and, together with the privateer Tygre, had a huge impact on british frigate design - followed by Sirène, Panthére and Renommée in 1744, all 'modern' frigates by the most common definition (ship-rigged, gundeck unarmed and below the waterline level, all guns on the upper deck and quarterdeck/forecastle).

 

And there´s even an earlier example of a true frigate, the swedish Vita Örn, built in 1711, if I remember correctly.

 

 

Edit:

 

oops, sorry for resurrecting an rather old thread >.<

[Daniel Alessi]

Easy guys. Two suggestions to developers. First, you can set up different servers for say, 3 eras of the Age of sail. No 1 will have early ships (of course), No2 can have modern ships (from the corresponding era) and admit somewhat outdated ships from the first era, and number 3 admit modern ships from the last era and admit outdated ships from the second. 

 

Secondly, It'd be great to have constitutions and other powerful ships. To minimize cluttering of the most powerful ships, you can set a system where if your ship sinks, you lose it forever and have to buy a new one if you want. That way it'll be risky to sail one of those and less people will try to get their hands on one. This rule could be expanded to all the ships. Just saying. 

 

Regards, myself.

[admin]

Easy guys. Two suggestions to developers. First, you can set up different servers for say, 3 eras of the Age of sail. No 1 will have early ships (of course), No2 can have modern ships (from the corresponding era) and admit somewhat outdated ships from the first era, and number 3 admit modern ships from the last era and admit outdated ships from the second. 

 

Secondly, It'd be great to have constitutions and other powerful ships. To minimize cluttering of the most powerful ships, you can set a system where if your ship sinks, you lose it forever and have to buy a new one if you want. That way it'll be risky to sail one of those and less people will try to get their hands on one. This rule could be expanded to all the ships. Just saying. 

 

Regards, myself.

 

interesting idea. Funny enough this topic was just raised on the russian speaking forum as well. early caravels will look very strange alongside Victory and Constitution.

[Ned Loe]

most famous ships will be in the game

Smart move!

[Johny Reb]

Constitution is a selling point for me!

 

Ultimately this is a game not a simulator. If its so strong as some suggest then make it a top tier frigate. The game will eventually level out to the top ships in the game and many will only be transition ships anyway. Im tired enough of the 1740s with pirates and such. I'd love to see the Med which is much more active in the era surrounding the wars with Napoleon. Constitution fits into that era just fine.