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James Thomson

Portbattle limited top rates (1-3)

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So i wan't to bring in my thought about the discussion floating around considering portbattles consisting only 3rd-1st rate ships, and also bring some usefullness to the frigates by capping the ammount of high rated ships that can enter portbattles. Also this would be historically more acurate than having fleet full of top rated ships...

 

I would suggest that players need to first of all unlock the slots for top rated ships to be even used for portbattles, blockading the port, donating resources to the national admirality or some other actions maybe.

By doing these things you would then slowly open up slots to bring top rated ships to the battle. Otherwise you would only be able to take frigates. And i would like this to be an effort that players cant fill easily!

 

Also i would limit it to somewhat like this 1-2 First rates maximum per battle, 1-3 Second rates, 2-4 Third rates. And i would never allow the maximum numbers of top rates, but some balanced combination of my examples. Like in example only 6 top rated ships could be brought to the battle, then debending on what the team has done it would build a composition like this: 1*1st + 1*2nd + 4*3rd or 0*1st + 3*2nd + 3*rd.

 

This just game in to my mind, don't rake me for my suggestion!

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I agree that 1st rates were nuclear weapons that day and should be very rare and 2nd rates should be uncommon but I think 3rd rates should be the main force of the fleet (historicly accurate).

And that people who are not part of a fleet should be in frigates as solo players.

Also I think that instead of limiting the numbers that can join a battle, we should limit the total amount of 1st rates and 2nd rates by making them way harder to get and to maintain, a 2nd should be for player who are spending a lot of time in the game, and a 1st rate should be a guild goal and otherwise (almost) unmaintainable.

This should be done true high maintenance costs and crafting costs, and not by a protective mechanic that they can't enter battles.

And please people should already be happy with a large frigate/3rd rate because the argument that people always need to have the best thing there is will ruinn this game for me by killing the realism.

Just my thoughts on this one. ;)

Edited by bramluijken
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I agree that 1st rates were nuclear weapons that day and should be very rare and 2nd should be uncommon but I think 3rd rates should be the main force of the fleet (historicly accurate).

And that people who are not part of a fleet should be in frigates as solo players.

Also I think that instead of limiting the numbers that can join a battle, we should limit the total amount of 1st rates and 2nd rates by making them way harder to get and to maintain, a 2nd should be for player who are spending a lot of time in the game, and a 1st rate should be a guild goal and otherwise (almost) unmaintainable.

This should be done true high maintenance costs and crafting costs, and not by a protective mechanic that they can't enter battles.

And please people should already be happy with a large frigate/3rd rate because the argument that people always need to have the best thing there is will ruinn this game for me by killing the realism.

Just mu thoughts on this one. ;)

I agree with that. it dont like those hard limits, it should be a natural created limit if you know what i mean.

Will be ashame if a clan put alot of effort to get second and first raten and cant use them in a port battle.

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only people that dont do much research will use nothing but first rates and will fail doing so.

and if w elimit it only ti ship of the lines how are we suposed to use mortars gains forts? ;)

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Historically accurate?... you mean, like teleports ??? Keep the game playable.

Playable doesn't mean that everybody has to sail a first/second rate and get the best there is.

The game if perfectly playable with historicly accurate fleets, and only a few people (0.5%) in 1st rates.

Teleports can be removed if it depends on me but lets not go offtopic.

And then please give me a reason why the game wouldn't be playable with historacly accurate fleets?

Edited by bramluijken

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I dont see how this would restrict the usage of 1st and 2nd rates, theres like 10 Port battles a day so you have 10 chances to bring first rate to the battle. I agree on the 3rd rates being main force, their number could be higher. These numbers were anyway to give you just an idea. But i would love to see tha players need to have effort done to actually be able to bring those ships in the PB otherwise this is gonna turn in to PBs whit only 1-3rd rates.

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I agree that 1st rates were nuclear weapons that day and should be very rare and 2nd should be uncommon but I think 3rd rates should be the main force of the fleet (historicly accurate).

And that people who are not part of a fleet should be in frigates as solo players.

Also I think that instead of limiting the numbers that can join a battle, we should limit the total amount of 1st rates and 2nd rates by making them way harder to get and to maintain, a 2nd should be for player who are spending a lot of time in the game, and a 1st rate should be a guild goal and otherwise (almost) unmaintainable.

This should be done true high maintenance costs and crafting costs, and not by a protective mechanic that they can't enter battles.

And please people should already be happy with a large frigate/3rd rate because the argument that people always need to have the best thing there is will ruinn this game for me by killing the realism.

Just mu thoughts on this one. ;)

Plucked the words out my mouth. +1 to this. Spot on.

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I agree that 1st rates were nuclear weapons that day and should be very rare and 2nd should be uncommon but I think 3rd rates should be the main force of the fleet (historicly accurate).

And that people who are not part of a fleet should be in frigates as solo players.

Also I think that instead of limiting the numbers that can join a battle, we should limit the total amount of 1st rates and 2nd rates by making them way harder to get and to maintain, a 2nd should be for player who are spending a lot of time in the game, and a 1st rate should be a guild goal and otherwise (almost) unmaintainable.

This should be done true high maintenance costs and crafting costs, and not by a protective mechanic that they can't enter battles.

And please people should already be happy with a large frigate/3rd rate because the argument that people always need to have the best thing there is will ruinn this game for me by killing the realism.

Just mu thoughts on this one. ;)

This would be the best option ofcourse, but then again some casual players would never have the experience.

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I agree that 1st rates were nuclear weapons that day and should be very rare and 2nd should be uncommon but I think 3rd rates should be the main force of the fleet (historicly accurate).

And that people who are not part of a fleet should be in frigates as solo players.

Also I think that instead of limiting the numbers that can join a battle, we should limit the total amount of 1st rates and 2nd rates by making them way harder to get and to maintain, a 2nd should be for player who are spending a lot of time in the game, and a 1st rate should be a guild goal and otherwise (almost) unmaintainable.

This should be done true high maintenance costs and crafting costs, and not by a protective mechanic that they can't enter battles.

And please people should already be happy with a large frigate/3rd rate because the argument that people always need to have the best thing there is will ruinn this game for me by killing the realism.

Just mu thoughts on this one. ;)

 

Er, no.

 

It is unrealistic to think of limiting a player's choices based on the amount of time they have to play. Everybody paid the same for the game. Saying that you have to be playing X, Y, or Z hours to be eligible for 'the good stuff' is just going to lose the game an awful lot of players. Word will get around and income will be lost because casual players won't even bother buying it.

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This would be the best option ofcourse, but then again some casual players would never have the experience.

We should not limit 1st rates production since it already has only 1 dura and if you want to sail this beast good you should set up lots of expensive upgrades, much more expensive than 1st rate itself, which are going to sink with 1 durability.

And with any economic model, the biggest nation will be able to assemble 25 santissimas anyway. Sooner or later, but they will do that nontheless.

The proper way is to set up a limitation for BR in the battle. It should be wide enough to let people set up to 5 1st rates, up to 5 2nd rates and the rest of 3rd rates in 25 ppl fleet. Admiral might decide to use only 1 or 2 1st rates and use more 2nd rates or to use the heviest ships instead as a hummer, replacing some 3rd rates with frigates to catch retreating enemy and maneuvering. Hey, thes still will be heavier then the battle of Trafalgar! It will prohibit "zerg rush of kadets on Santissimas" tactic, it will force to choose flagships, it will make 3rd rates useful, and will not ban fanboys of 1st rates and good players on heavy ships from their usage. If you have 25 santissimas, you can make another attack with another fleet at the same time so it is not going to reduce your attacking capability)

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Er, no.

It is unrealistic to think of limiting a player's choices based on the amount of time they have to play. Everybody paid the same for the game. Saying that you have to be playing X, Y, or Z hours to be eligible for 'the good stuff' is just going to lose the game an awful lot of players. Word will get around and income will be lost because casual players won't even bother buying it.

Hardly, humans by nature are extortionists. We always want more. Which is why I spent all that time grinding up from level 1 to 70 in world of Warcraft, 1 to 80 in guild wars 2 etc. your argument is against the long grind, the hours needed to gain all the end game stuff when intact in almost every major successful game, the grind is exists and is much worse.

The grind is also MUCH more relevant in this game as it helps you gain that much needed skill and experience that you'll sorely need against players who already have 2,500 hours invested in the game.

Edited by Monkey Bullet
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Trying to artificially limit how many ships of the line are allowed to be in any portion of the game will never work without just ending up being an elitist crapfest. What we need is more good reasons to use smaller ships and more meaningful advancement for people who prefer them so that people are going to be more naturally inclined to use them.

 

Also, let's stop making "historical" arguments about how many of this or that are supposed to be around. Always keep in mind: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Naval_battles_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars

 

The entire Napoleonic wars saw fewer sea battles than one hour in Naval Action.

Edited by Aetrion

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Trying to artificially limit how many ships of the line are allowed to be in any portion of the game will never work without just ending up being an elitist crapfest. What we need is more good reasons to use smaller ships and more meaningful advancement for people who prefer them so that people are going to be more naturally inclined to use them.

Also, let's stop making "historical" arguments about how many of this or that are supposed to be around. Always keep in mind:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Naval_battles_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars

The entire Napoleonic wars saw fewer sea battles than one hour in Naval Action.

Ships of the line will never be limited. The 1st rates should be.

There is no purpose and usage for lighter ships when you can just go with 25 santissimas. The only way to fight back is to use another 25 santissimas. That's it! High tier game will be boring as hell with 1st rates duel on the both sides. And if we limit their numbers to enter the battle, there will be usage for 2nd and 3rd rate ships of the line as well as for some top tier frigates if they will be used wisely

Edited by ErilaZ

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No one disagrees with the statement "there should be a limit on the amount of 1st rates" we are telling you that limited it per port battle will cause more problems and there are much, MUCH better ways of going about it.

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There is no purpose and usage for lighter ships when you can just go with 25 santissimas. The only way to fight back is to use another 25 santissimas. That's it! High tier game will be boring as hell with 1st rates duel on the both sides. And if we limit their numbers to enter the battle, there will be usage for 2nd and 3rd rate ships of the line as well as for some top tier frigates if they will be used wisely

 

That's not the right way to fix the issue.

 

You will never be able to control the most powerful thing in a game through economics, all you accomplish by trying to do so is driving off all the players who can't afford it, leaving you with a smaller game that is still full of only the most powerful thing.

 

Trying to control the most powerful thing in a game through hard limits accomplishes nothing other than annoy players who have worked their ass off to get it only to then be told they can't use it by some arbitrary counter. 

 

The only real way to ever control the numbers of something in a game is to make sure that there simply is no definitive most powerful thing. 

 

 

Introduce some mechanics that make ships of the line not into the best possible solution to every problem.

 

 

For example, fire ships were used extensively when the Greeks fought for their independence from the Ottomans, who owned a huge fleet of ships of the line. Knowing that they couldn't possibly outshoot the Ottoman fleet the Greeks adopted a strategy of taking rowboats up to the large cumbersome ships and simply blowing holes into them with powderkegs, or setting them on fire with oil.

 

Fire_ship_by_Volanakis.jpg

 

In the game this type of scenario could be implemented in port battles, by having the ports spawn rowboats that head toward the enemies to set them on fire. By giving the rowboats a speed of roughly 10 knots no matter which way they travel you would create a situation where a ship of the line cannot outrun them, while smaller, more agile ships wouldn't have a big problem keeping the fire ships at arm's length.

 

Rowboats could also be filled with marines for small scale boarding actions, which again, would be a major annoyance for big ships that have no way of outmaneuvering small scale attacks like that.

 

 

 

Another major factor to consider in port battles that hasn't come into play at all yet are Mortars. 

 

Mortars were usually mounted on smaller ships, sometimes specifically built for that purpose and designated as bomb-vessels. Since the mortars had to fire from the deck past all the rigging ships with smaller masts and less complex rigging were most effective as bomb-vessels.

 

Ft._Henry_bombardement_1814.jpg

 

So that's another thing to consider as a way to make small ships more useful for port sieges: Make them more suited to using mortars. By giving them weapons that ships of the line can't effectively carry but that might be essential to taking down certain types of coastal defenses you create a demand for smaller ships.

 

 

I think it would help the game significantly if the progression system was overhauled a bit a bit less one sidedly focussed on just getting bigger ships. Right now there is very little incentive to stick with a 6th rate if you can go 5th and so forth, because you just can't develop those ships any further in an interesting manner. That's a whole different topic worth of ideas.

 

Lastly, from what I understand the various ports in the game are going to have custom maps to play on when you capture them, so that will also introduce all sorts of extra ability to utilize ships with a shallower draft. 

 

 

 

Anyways, there are tons of ways to make people want to use something else than a ship of the line that aren't just some arbitrary counter, but actual solid systems of gameplay.

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No one disagrees with the statement "there should be a limit on the amount of 1st rates" we are telling you that limited it per port battle will cause more problems and there are much, MUCH better ways of going about it.

Be polite, I believe everyone is capable of reading here therefore undestand what are you talking about.

If you are telling about problems, what exactly do you mean?

Why do you think that samtisima-only matches at high-tire PB will be the lesser of two evels?

Why do you think that zerg-based economy will not be able to provide 1st rates rush disrearding santisimas price for its battle effectiveness?

Be nice and precise, please.

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another idea to mitigate line ship spam would be to slash down the differences betwen the ships in terms of health and armor so that for example a victory doesent have like 400% more hp and armor than a surprise

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another idea to mitigate line ship spam would be to slash down the differences betwen the ships in terms of health and armor so that for example a victory doesent have like 400% more hp and armor than a surprise

 

I think that largely comes down to the excessive cost of replacing high end ships though. You can buy a sixpack of Surprises for the cost of a Victory.

Edited by Aetrion

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I think that largely comes down to the excessive cost of replacing high end ships though. You can buy a sixpack of Surprises for the cost of a Victory.

 

true but you also cant field 6 surprises for every victory as battles have a pop cap

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another idea to mitigate line ship spam would be to slash down the differences betwen the ships in terms of health and armor so that for example a victory doesent have like 400% more hp and armor than a surprise

By lowering the stats they don't become rare they become irralevant, and do we really want 25 irralevant vics or do we want 1 vic backed up by 3rd and 2nd rates and those backed up by frigs and mortars?

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true but you also cant field 6 surprises for every victory as battles have a pop cap

 

Yea, but the idea is to have a good spread of different ships with their own role to play in the game, so slashing the performance on ships of the line while retaining their huge cost doesn't really do that, it just moves another ship toward being the optimal choice.

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