Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) So throughout today Clan [Purge] has been harassing pirate players by joining their missions and battles in cutters doing whatever they can to harass us. When we try to capture a trader they join in and sink it making it impossible. If we are in a mission they will join our side and shoot our sails. In battles vs other players they do outrageous things because cutters cost nothing and there is no consequences for losing them. I don't think an enemy faction should be able to join my side unless I allow him. And if he joins my battle without my approval I should be able to kill him, because he's my enemy. Edited February 19, 2016 by Captain Marell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Spivey Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Do you mean this: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/10860-pvp2-cutter-night/ ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Dryfus Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Oh darn, you mean people played the game, and fought successfully against a faction that was attacking them? Darn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I have no problem with them attacking us, the problem comes when they join OUR mission as FRIENDLIES and I am not allowed to attack them. In that post linked above they admit to joining our side and griefing missions. It makes sense that against bigger numbers you should use harassment tactics but we should be allowed to respond in kind. If they want to send cutters to attack British ships in my mission then they should have a third side, French vs British vs Pirates thus allowing us to actually fight instead of having to watch as they sail beside me and destroy the trading ships were trying to capture or causing mission failure. "*We jumped in their missions to create a mission failure. *When they stopped doing missions and started jumping NPC Trader ships we jumped in those battles as Pirates and boarded and thieved away their cargo." Again, I have no problem with them actually attacking us during missions or when we try to capture ships, but there is a inherit problem when they join our side. Edited February 19, 2016 by Captain Marell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kutai Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Oh darn, you mean people played the game, and fought successfully against a faction that was attacking them? Darn From what the OP states the other players were actually abusing the green on green system which is a clear breach of game rules. I would ask for evidence but seeing as they posting their admitance AND boasted about it this seems a pretty open and shut case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 How can a non grouped friendly enter a Mission !? I wonder if it is not simply a normal battle and not a Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) It is a normal battle, the second part of the problem was them joining a normal battle on my side when I'm trying to capture a trader. They would then sink the trader and we were left unable to do anything. And yeah, it's as Kutai says. Edited February 19, 2016 by Captain Marell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Al'right then. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Sidenote; I'm not a big fan of the whole " We can take our free ships and lose nothing and still beat you to death with it." Losing any ship should have consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsilon Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 If we are in a mission they will join our side and shoot our sails. I think you are misunderstanding the mission mechanic. It is impossible to join your side in a Mission. The only reason you have the ability to join the mission at all is to attempt to help the Neutral ship you are trying to kill and therefore shooting your sails to make that easier seems to be reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharus Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I have no problem with them attacking us, the problem comes when they join OUR mission as FRIENDLIES and I am not allowed to attack them. In that post linked above they admit to joining our side and griefing missions. It makes sense that against bigger numbers you should use harassment tactics but we should be allowed to respond in kind. If they want to send cutters to attack British ships in my mission then they should have a third side, French vs British vs Pirates thus allowing us to actually fight instead of having to watch as they sail beside me and destroy the trading ships were trying to capture or causing mission failure. "*We jumped in their missions to create a mission failure. *When they stopped doing missions and started jumping NPC Trader ships we jumped in those battles as Pirates and boarded and thieved away their cargo." Again, I have no problem with them actually attacking us during missions or when we try to capture ships, but there is a inherit problem when they join our side. Wrong. Purge joins Neutrals during your missions. We protect those helpless guys. There is absolutely NO intentional green on green actions from missions. Its impossible Get facts straight first before complaining. Then when we join your attacks against traders on your side we sink them to prevent you from getting the ill gotten loot. This is not a direct attack on you but your team. Edited February 19, 2016 by Dharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dophuz Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Your facts are completely wrong. We join Missions AS the defender and help defend the neutral ships. When you are in OS combat against a trader we join as pirates and attempt to take the prize. WE DO not shot at you nor do we ram/sink or interrupt your underway boarding. YOUR clan rams us, Fires on us ( friendly ), capsizes the prize and our ships. Check your logs for those fights...you will see the guilty pirates have a negative xp ( which means that THEY fired on friendly ships ) We reported a few of you using the f11 function so that the devs could see the logs. The Frigate we captured yesterday was from [bSO] we joined in defending a Cerb..and when the pirate sunk the cerb we swarmed him with 5 cutters, blew off his stern armor, graped the crew down and boarded him ( all the while he was shooting at us as we were on the other team but to no avail) Nothing we are doing is against the 'rules' and we are careful to make sure we don't have any : "green on green" firing or boarding interruption. You might want to talk to YOUR Clan members first before you come here and whine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Um I hate to break it to you but your friends admitted it in their thread. WE DO not shot at you nor do we ram/sink or interrupt your underway boarding. YOUR clan rams us, Fires on us ( friendly ), capsizes the prize and our ships. Friendly being the key word there, your clan is abusing the fact that we can't fire back. When were trying to capture ships you come in and sink them, even after we ask to stop. All in all I think the mechanics should make it that we both can fire upon eachother cause your "Help" is nothing but greifing. Edited February 19, 2016 by Captain Marell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsilon Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I think the difference you are missing is that the highlighted section was all done w/o shooting you or ramming you or attempting to sink you in any way. Nor were any active boardings interrupted, ie ramming you to disrupt your boarding attempt. I believe efforts are made to avoid intentional green-on-green damage. It's a different story with respect to Missions where they will hit you, demast you etc. I think you are confusing the 2 scenarios. Edited February 19, 2016 by Arsilon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 I'm talking about one scenario right now. [Purge] ships joining battles as friendies and greifing us. In the battle I was in, I was trying to board a ship but the purge ships were sinking it, and there is nothing I can do to stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taralin Snow Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I was in one of those fights Captain Marell is talking about. He (pirate) was attacking a Brit NPC so we joined the pirate side to take his prize (or try to, anyway). If he had attacked a French NPC then we (as French players) would have been forced to join as French. which, incidentially, is one way to avoid the problem: pirates in the disputed area should only attack French NPCs, thereby assuring that French players can only join as enemies. in this case he was fighting Brit NPCs so we had the choice to join as Brits or Pirates. since our goal is economic warfare against the pirates, we joined as pirates in order to try to beat him to his prize. of course we do this without (deliberately) ramming or shooting him, which we understand to be against the rules. it is our understanding that this is within the letter of the rules (no green on green damage) and furthermore within the spirit of playing on a PVP server in a sandbox game. this isn't just arena PVP like a MOBA, this is war and the objective is nothing less than to make ourselves such a nuisance that the pirates pick up and go elsewhere. we do this by sinking their ships, and by making it difficult to replace them by sacking their traders and doing what we can to prevent successful cash grinding. during this fight the OP fired on me and rammed me repeatedly. I'm pretty sure that he's the one violating the rules here, not us. he said something about using F11 to report us, but since it was my belief that he was the one breaking rules I used F11 to report him as well. that was before I knew about the Tribunal sub-forum. had I known about it I would have taken screenshots and posted them here. next time I will know. anyway, he did so much damage to me that I was barely able to avoid being capsized, and after he escaped out of battle my armor was so low I could not finish off the remaining NPCs by myself (although since I was there already I would have preferred to). I am very much in favor of someone looking into this and clarifying the rules, as far as we know we stayed within them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Spivey Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I'm seeing lots of accusations and counter accusations, but not much in the way of evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taralin Snow Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I'm talking about one scenario right now. [Purge] ships joining battles as friendies and greifing us. In the battle I was in, I was trying to board a ship but the purge ships were sinking it, and there is nothing I can do to stop them. I have suggested a possible improvement to the game that would address this: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/10854-friendly-players-sinking-the-ship-you-tagged-and-are-capturing/#entry192894 If this were done you could forcibly recategorize us as 'neutral' rather than 'friendly', so you can shoot or ram us without green on green damage, but we would still be able to try to sink or capture the 'enemy' NPCs. of course we would also be able to shoot at you in that case, but you had a much bigger ship so you should be able to defend yourself. I don't think it is a good idea on a PvP server to make open sea battles a safe haven for uninterrupted PvE. If you want that kind of gameplay I really think a PvE server would be a better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dophuz Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Perhaps you are confused about shooting at a prize to reduce crew ( with grapeshot ) or to lower the armor on one side to facilitate that. You will also notice that we came up along side the ship to attempt to grapple and YOUR Clan rammed us and capsized us. Also note that we cannot join the pirates if you are attack French...we can only join you if you are attacking an enemy state ( other than France ). Enemy of my enemy and all that jazz. As for the prize...rule of might prevails. Happy Sailing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) First I agree that I don't want to have uninterruptable PvE. I think that you should be able to join as a THIRD, separate faction and attack both me and the ship I'm trying to capture. That makes sense and I'm not QQing about my PVE being interrupted. My problem is strictly with the way the mechanics can be abused right now, currently I can't do anything to stop you from sinking a ship I'm trying to capture if you Join the Pirates in the battle. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. Edited title to better reflect issue. Edited February 19, 2016 by Captain Marell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsilon Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 First I agree that I don't want to have uninterruptable PvE. I think that you should be able to join as a THIRD, separate faction and attack both me and the ship I'm trying to capture. That makes sense and I'm not QQing about my PVE being interrupted. My problem is strictly with the way the mechanics can be abused right now, currently I can't do anything to stop you from sinking a ship I'm trying to capture if you Join the Pirates in the battle. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. Well then I think Taralin Snow's suggestion might be the way you deal with it. However, since this post is in the tribunal section, I don't think anything that has happened has been against the rules and mechanics as they are currently defined. It will be good to get further clarification either way though so let's see how this one gets resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bach Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I'm talking about one scenario right now. [Purge] ships joining battles as friendies and greifing us. In the battle I was in, I was trying to board a ship but the purge ships were sinking it, and there is nothing I can do to stop them. I wouldn't be opposed to the third nation in one battle option if the game engine can handle it. Basically I look at it like this: A French Cutter sailing the Channel spies an English frigate going after a fat merchant. Well it's better that cargo go to the bottom than fall into British hands to be used against us. So the cutter charges in and sinks or boards the merchant. I'm sure in real life this happened a time or two. The mechanic preventing the British frigate from firing on the French cutter isn't all that realistic. As far as the argument regarding the Purge, I was monitoring that last night and it was mentioned that they were observing green on green rules. Which just means the green on green mechanic needs looking into and possibly adjusting. It's an Alpha. That's what we are supposed to be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vllad Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) My problem is strictly with the way the mechanics can be abused right now, currently I can't do anything to stop you from sinking a ship I'm trying to capture if you Join the Pirates in the battle. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. Edited title to better reflect issue. I am unclear why you think it is your ship. Those ships don't belong to you until you board it. Why do you think that encounter belongs to you? Obviously just because you initiate a battle doesn't make it yours alone. Following that logic no other people should ever enter a PVP fight without your permission either. We both know that is not how the mechanic works. You have joined on the Brits side when we initiate PVP fights with the Brits. We are French and you are a Pirate, we both have rights to the British Trade Ships. What is wrong with the guy who gets there first wins? As long as Green on Green rules are followed I don't see why you have an issue with it. Since you think the game is obviously broken and you have no say so in the matter let me offer some thoughts on things you should have thought of first before coming here to complain. *Stop trying use Cerbs and Surprises to board a Lynx, try using a Cutter, Privateer or Merc. The reason you guys lose out on boarding opportunities is you are using sledge hammers to accomplish a job something much smaller is better at. *You have a huge head start you could just board it first *Stop attacking non French Trade ships and you won't have an issue. Finally, you could just go away and go hang out in Pirate territory so you don't have this problem. Stop hunting in French territory and I am sure the French will leave you alone. Edited February 19, 2016 by Vllad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marell Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Again, you fail to realize the problem here. The fact that you can try to steal a ship and I'm not allowed to fire at you is what's wrong. You are deliberetly using game mechanics to exploit the fact that I can't stop you and bragging about it on the forums. Second I am not in a Surprise or a Cerb nor was I attacking a Lynx or a Cutter. So stop trying to make false facts to justify you knowingly exploiting the game. "*Stop attacking non French Trade ships and you won't have an issue." What? "Finally, you could just go away and go hang out in Pirate territory so you don't have this problem. Stop hunting in French territory and I am sure the French will leave you alone." Hate to break it to you but taking ports and expanding territory is part of the game. Exploiting game mechanics isn't. All in all, you admit in your post to using the fact that we can't fire back to your advantage and if that's not exploiting I don't know what is. Also for the third time: Just to state I have no issue with the tactic, just the fact that game mechanics make it so I'm not allowed to shoot back. Edited February 19, 2016 by Captain Marell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vllad Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Again, you fail to realize the problem here. The fact that you can try to steal a ship and I'm not allowed to fire at you is what's wrong. I realize what you are saying but I think you are missing the point of how encounters work. We can't steal something from you that doesn't belong to you in the first place. You don't own the ship OR the encounter. If I join your encounter and I get to the trader first the ship belongs to me not you. Just because you initiate the encounter doesn't give you some magical right to what is inside the encounter. I think what you want is when you initiate a fight with an NPC is you want it to be your little private instance that you can solo. The encounters in this game don't work that way. Every sub instance I know of can be joined by other players so by default you can never have you want. Pirates can join your encounters and you can't shoot them. Why would you want to shoot French that join your encounters on your side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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