Confederates Still Hugely Overpowered

[Edgy]

Lets start at the beginning. Buford knew he had no chance of actually beating what was coming down the road at him, his hope was to delay the Confederate advance in order to save the high ground for the Union....that is a set in stone fact.

 

In order to simulate this, you made some bad balancing decisions, to the point where Buford is actually routing Davis & Archer. Buford did have advantages, his troopers had a greater rate of fire than the Rebel Infantry, they were also fighting from cover, but they were never going to beat Heth's men! This has a knock on effect too, once Archer and Davis are routed, they fare poorly when the Union Infantry arrives. Under most AI choices the Confederates are really easily beaten, under others the Confederate AI will just charge and smash the cavalry...but ruin their own Brigades in the process.

 

It's all well and good for a Civil War game that's NOT based on the Battle of Gettysburg, but you named this game Ultimate General Gettysburg, not us.

 

If you cannot simulate the real events of July the First, then how can you ever hope to create variations of it?

[David Fair]

It's not really possible to replicate Buford's bluff or Heth's orders that prevent the CSA from gaining the high ground on McPherson's Ridge.

 

While Buford's men had a slight advantage in rate of fire Buford's Company, Regimental, and Division ordnance records of the regiments under Buford show that his troopers were armed with Sharps, Burnsides, Merrills, Ballards, and Maynards.

 

While these weapons had a slightly higher rate of fire these cavalry carbines were substantially less accurate and had an effective range of about 2/3 of a rifled musket carried by the infantry.  

 

None of Buford's cavalry were armed with Spencer Repeating Rifles.

 

Buford's cavalry had two advantages - high ground and he deployed his men in the prone position which forced the CSA to recon his position.

 

Heth was under orders not to bring on a general action - resulting in a delay.

 

Rather than attempting to replicate the indecision and delays just put the Union infantry on McPherson's Ridge and start the battle.

[IronGuard]

Yes, yes, yes. 

 

There really are some major issues in the day 1 battle. The biggest is the fact that Bufords two brigades are diverted into five different units. Total nonsense in my opinion. This way it becomes much too easy to flank Davis or Archers Brigade and rout them It would be much better to deploy Gambles and Devins brigades with sufficient Moral and condition to hold the Rebs of until Iron Brigade arrives. It would make the fight at dawn much more historical and better to play.

[MikeK]

If the delaying action was a head-on fight between the US cavalry and CS infantry as they slowly pressed forward, sure. If its success was keyed to bold maneuver of relatively weak formations that could harry and distract the CS formations, not beat them by fighting directly, then something like the current scheme makes sense. Need to decide what actually happened or at least what is should feel like in the game. 

[Mr. Mercanto]

What I am saying is that I know the ebb and flow of the battle of Gettysburg like the back of my hand. The afternoon of July 1st, in game, is a good as example as any of what I am talking about. I tried to use an echelon attack earlier today, starting from the Confederate right, all the way to the left at Culps Hill I sent my brigades in to assault the Union Brigades that I had pounded in the morning. By the time some of my second corps brigades reached the jump of point for the attack, the scenario was virtually over. Pender's Division as well as many brigades from the Second Corps barely get into action before the scenario ends, even if you rush them straight into an attack.

 

I believe that the timing, or if you like the pace, of UGG is wrong, that it is too fast. And by too fast I do not mean from a ''I cant manage this'' point of view I mean that some scenario's are nowhere near long enough &, it's because of these time constraints that some units seem weak while others are appearing to be over powered.

 

The first day of Gettysburg is, or should be, very very tough on the Union player in a war game. I'm not really seeing that in UGG. All he should reasonably be able to accomplish with the XI Corps is a holding action, the XI Corps were still suffering from the debacle at Chancellorsville ( if memory serves they had less than 9000 men) & were really in no condition to mount an offensive. The flow/timing, or whatever you want to call it, especially on the first day, seems to be skewed in order to give the Union more of a chance to be offensive.

 

So far I have been testing things as the Confederate player, putting the Union AI on cautious, because I believe this more faithfully represents the 'historical' mindset of Meade at Gettysburg. By doing this I know, more or less, what to expect from the Union AI, and am able to judge the game better as a result. On that first day I notice, time and again, two units in particular seem to stand out. First of all Pettigrew's Brigade almost always under achieves, breaking quite easily over and over. Obviously I was expecting the Iron Brigade to be a problem on the Union side but it's actually the Bucktail Brigade who pose the biggest problem, seeming to roam the battlefield oblivious to withering fire from Infantry and Artillery alike.

Two brief points. First, the XI Corps was suffering the effects of Chancellorsville, but the I Corps was not, as I recall Reynolds brought the I Corps on the first day, which proved critical in the delaying action.

Second, I would say Cunning better represents the Mindset of the Union army at Gettysburg. Meade was certainly fighting without interest in attacking, but his defenisve movements were far to skillful to be relegated to the weakness of the "Cautious" difficulty. Meade defended his positions with skill and determination. Lee actually noted this could be a problem before the battle occurred, saying that, while Hooker was prone to accident, Meade was a man of great skill who would not commit such blunders and would be unlikely to allow Lee to make mistakes safely. 

As for the Union army, they also fought with a defensive determination better suited to the "Cunning" difficulty setting. This was perhaps best expressed by a Rebel soldier who said "I swear the Yankees shoot straighter in the North." 

If you want the accurate historical scenario and are playing as the Rebels, I'd say go with "Cunning." If you are playing as the Union (as I always do) the most historically accruate would probably be "Offensive." Lee was one of the best tactical thinkers of his time but at Gettysburg he did not think as clearly as at other engagements and committed a number of unusual mistakes. In any other battle I would say he ought to be assigned "Dynamic" but for Gettysburg, I think "Offensive" is slightly more accurate. 

[Mr. Mercanto]

I can see what people are complaining about. When UGG was first released the 1st day was a bit to unfair to the Union I think. Now after the patches I feel that Union reinforcements arrive a bit to soon. Day One is certainly a challenge for the Federals in the game but I think maybe it could be a smidge more challenging. 

[Mr. Mercanto]

It's not really possible to replicate Buford's bluff or Heth's orders that prevent the CSA from gaining the high ground on McPherson's Ridge.

 

While Buford's men had a slight advantage in rate of fire Buford's Company, Regimental, and Division ordnance records of the regiments under Buford show that his troopers were armed with Sharps, Burnsides, Merrills, Ballards, and Maynards.

 

While these weapons had a slightly higher rate of fire these cavalry carbines were substantially less accurate and had an effective range of about 2/3 of a rifled musket carried by the infantry.  

 

None of Buford's cavalry were armed with Spencer Repeating Rifles.

 

Buford's cavalry had two advantages - high ground and he deployed his men in the prone position which forced the CSA to recon his position.

 

Heth was under orders not to bring on a general action - resulting in a delay.

 

Rather than attempting to replicate the indecision and delays just put the Union infantry on McPherson's Ridge and start the battle.

None of Buford's men had Spencers according to the ordinance records? Egg on my face I guess, I thought they all had Spencers . Any chance there is a link for that, I want to take a look if its possible, my curiosity is piqued. 

[David Fair]

As requested Mr. Mercanto:

 

http://npsgnmp.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/weapons-at-gettysburg-the-spencer-repeating-rifle/

[Edgy]

Two brief points. First, the XI Corps was suffering the effects of Chancellorsville, but the I Corps was not, as I recall Reynolds brought the I Corps on the first day, which proved critical in the delaying action.

Second, I would say Cunning better represents the Mindset of the Union army at Gettysburg. Meade was certainly fighting without interest in attacking, but his defenisve movements were far to skillful to be relegated to the weakness of the "Cautious" difficulty. Meade defended his positions with skill and determination. Lee actually noted this could be a problem before the battle occurred, saying that, while Hooker was prone to accident, Meade was a man of great skill who would not commit such blunders and would be unlikely to allow Lee to make mistakes safely. 

As for the Union army, they also fought with a defensive determination better suited to the "Cunning" difficulty setting. This was perhaps best expressed by a Rebel soldier who said "I swear the Yankees shoot straighter in the North." 

If you want the accurate historical scenario and are playing as the Rebels, I'd say go with "Cunning." If you are playing as the Union (as I always do) the most historically accruate would probably be "Offensive." Lee was one of the best tactical thinkers of his time but at Gettysburg he did not think as clearly as at other engagements and committed a number of unusual mistakes. In any other battle I would say he ought to be assigned "Dynamic" but for Gettysburg, I think "Offensive" is slightly more accurate. 

 

The whole of the Army of the Potomac suffered due to the loss at Chancellorsville. In the period leading up to Gettysburg, morale in the Union army was at an all time low, some soldiers were even writing home to loved ones saying how ashamed they were to be a part of it. The XI Corps were in a worse state than the rest, because the rest blamed them for the defeat, and because they had lost so many men as prisoners.

 

Although George Meade had been a somewhat aggressive Division commander, he was never cunning, nor aggressive, as commander of the Army of the Potomac, being one of the first officers (along with James Longstreet) to fully realize the futility of frontal assaults against an entrenched enemy. At Gettysburg he had been in command for only a couple of days, and wisely left most of the fighting to men like Hancock. Even the decision to fight at Gettysburg was not his, but Gen' Reynolds. The defensive 'fish hook' was due to Buford wanting to hold the high ground, the direction Confederate assaults, and Gen's Howard & Hancock, not Meade. Gen' Slocum made the decision to fortify Culps Hill, not Meade, in fact Gen' Meade (possibly as early as the morning of the second of July) wanted to retreat from Gettysburg to Pipe Creek. The only thing Meade did with any 'skill' at Gettysburg was to not attack on the fourth of July. To say that Meade was 'cautious' at Gettysburg was, if anything, a mild understatement on my part.

 

The Army of Northern Virginia that began to arrive at Gettysburg on the first of July, was not the same army that had won at Chancellorsville. Jackson was dead, and Lee's army now had three Corps, not two. Two of Lee's Corps commanders (A.P.Hill & Ewell) were untried in that position. While both men had proven themselves to be very capable commanders below Corps level, with hindsight we now know that neither was suited to Corps level command, or to Lee's way of conducting operations. Lee was an unusual commanding General, in that he gave his officers 'discretionary' rather than direct, orders. While this worked extremely well with Longstreet & Jackson at the head of his Corps, it's frailties were fully exposed when A.P. Hill & Ewell had taken over. Moreover, Lee & the Army of Northern Virginia won the large majority of their battles on the defensive, not the offensive.

 

Last year, a study conducted by the Smithsonian on the topography of Gettysburg in 1863, has also shown that many of the critical decisions taken during the battle, would have been taken 'blindly', especially the decision to assault Cemetery Hill. Longstreet was a defensive minded officer, A.P. Hill & Ewell were used to being given direct orders under Jackson's strict command, I think that a new AI should be added for the Confederates....'confused'.

[Mr. Mercanto]

The whole of the Army of the Potomac suffered due to the loss at Chancellorsville. In the period leading up to Gettysburg, morale in the Union army was at an all time low, some soldiers were even writing home to loved ones saying how ashamed they were to be a part of it. The XI Corps were in a worse state than the rest, because the rest blamed them for the defeat, and because they had lost so many men as prisoners.

 

Although George Meade had been a somewhat aggressive Division commander, he was never cunning, nor aggressive, as commander of the Army of the Potomac, being one of the first officers (along with James Longstreet) to fully realize the futility of frontal assaults against an entrenched enemy. At Gettysburg he had been in command for only a couple of days, and wisely left most of the fighting to men like Hancock. Even the decision to fight at Gettysburg was not his, but Gen' Reynolds. The defensive 'fish hook' was due to Buford wanting to hold the high ground, the direction Confederate assaults, and Gen's Howard & Hancock, not Meade. Gen' Slocum made the decision to fortify Culps Hill, not Meade, in fact Gen' Meade (possibly as early as the morning of the second of July) wanted to retreat from Gettysburg to Pipe Creek. The only thing Meade did with any 'skill' at Gettysburg was to not attack on the fourth of July. To say that Meade was 'cautious' at Gettysburg was, if anything, a mild understatement on my part.

 

The Army of Northern Virginia that began to arrive at Gettysburg on the first of July, was not the same army that had won at Chancellorsville. Jackson was dead, and Lee's army now had three Corps, not two. Two of Lee's Corps commanders (A.P.Hill & Ewell) were untried in that position. While both men had proven themselves to be very capable commanders below Corps level, with hindsight we now know that neither was suited to Corps level command, or to Lee's way of conducting operations. Lee was an unusual commanding General, in that he gave his officers 'discretionary' rather than direct, orders. While this worked extremely well with Longstreet & Jackson at the head of his Corps, it's frailties were fully exposed when A.P. Hill & Ewell had taken over. Moreover, Lee & the Army of Northern Virginia won the large majority of their battles on the defensive, not the offensive.

 

Last year, a study conducted by the Smithsonian on the topography of Gettysburg in 1863, has also shown that many of the critical decisions taken during the battle, would have been taken 'blindly', especially the decision to assault Cemetery Hill. Longstreet was a defensive minded officer, A.P. Hill & Ewell were used to being given direct orders under Jackson's strict command, I think that a new AI should be added for the Confederates....'confused'.

Lol! Yeah I think "Confused" would be a good option for the Rebels . 

When I determine Lee to be "Offensive" I do so because the attacks had some sound theory but were not adequately carried. Ie the En Echelon attack on Day 2 and the Box Barrage and Oblique attack of Day 3, coupled with the renewed offensive on Culp's Hill and the cavalry attack in the Union rear. I consider these plans to complex for "Reckless" but not well implemented enough for "Determined."

As to Meade's relationship to the battle, this is a matter of debate historically. He certainly had the final say in the defensive action. Recently discovered minutes from his council of war after the first night's action actually prove that, although he was tepid, Meade chose to maintain and rectify his position in the face of Lee's army. General Slocum perhaps he;ped provide him with the moral fortitude to do this, but the decision was his, not Slocum's. It is perhaps a truism to say that because Slocum did not command the Army of the Potomac, he was not in a position to order the army to stay, obviously, only Meade could, and did, make that decisions. So, although Reynold's, Hancock, and Buford all played invaluable roles, it was ultimately Meade's defensive decisions and his victory.

Bear in mind that after Meade's foolish decision to expel a reporter unfavourably from the army in 1864, the journalists following the AoP determined to no longer give Meade any positive press. This has created a unfairly negative view of Meade as a commander and greatly effected the historiography of the general. The biased press reporting against Meade has given the impression that he was never responsible for his own victories. Meade wasn't perfect, but I have tended to find that most criticism of him being a poor and un-involved commander have more basis in his bad press then battlefield behaviour.   

[Mr. Mercanto]

As requested Mr. Mercanto:

 

http://npsgnmp.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/weapons-at-gettysburg-the-spencer-repeating-rifle/

Awesome! Thanks for this.

As I read this I'm starting to wonder if even Wilder's Brigade had Spencers lol

[WesleyBarras]

Not really.

 

Your tactics are wrong. Instead of holding the ground from the start you need to set your Brigades up one behind the other. In at least two rows. A good distance away from the VP. As the Confederates advance you simply fallback one brigade behind the other. Then when the Rebels advance to the next brigade you do the same. By the time you do this 3 or 4 times the Rebels will be exhausted and you can tell your men to hold. They should have more Morale and Organization than the Confederates and then the Rebels will run in fear.

 

I can destroy the game as Union on Hardest difficulty. Its not that hard.

 

Its far harder to beat as the Rebels. Once the 5 different Corps arrive on the field. The Union have far better cannons and If you have not gained  Culps Hill its almost impossible to win as Rebs.

Its actually super easy to win as the rebels. They don't wear down until you run their moral to 0% and then rebuild it quick. 

[Lannes]

Thanks David Fair, I was asking elsewhere about this very thing, the cavalry's weapons and their effectiveness, coupled with Buford's skill in delaying Heth and coming out of it with very few casualties.

[R.E.B.Blunt]

Since when did Robertson's Brigade of the Hardest fighting Texas and Arkansas Crack regiments the confederates had to offer become a 2 star General... Has this always been like this or did I miss something in a previous update?

 

 

[WesleyBarras]

Yeah, upon reflection I was overreacting due to frustration. Though I still maintain that the Union soldiers in the game are unfairly presented. The Grand Army of the Potomac gets a bad reputation due to the ineptitude of its commanders before Meade, but the army itself and the soldiers it was composed of were of the best in the war. No other army in the Union inflicted and withstood casualties in the proportions that the Potomac Army did. Also, as I said before I quite like Adelbert Ames he definetly should have at least 2 stars lol. 

Granted, the same can be said of the Army of Northern Virginia in relation to its Confederate counter parts, and the brigades mentioned by Johnny Jingles certainly demonstrate that. I just think that the Union infantry are being a bit unfairly represented. 

Thank you Mr.Mercanto, I've been saying this for years.  The Union had just as good as soldiers as the Confederates. They withstood things that would break most armies. It was their LEADERS who were terrible. 

[Ray_p]

Even after the latest update the Confederates are still overpowered.   The rebels charge and the Yankees break and run even when I have a double rank and excellent artillery support.   Laughable to try to maintain a line when the confederates advance.

[Harnis]

it would be difficult to replicate the indecision of certain generals. Heth was under orders to avoid a large battle, so to simulate that in the game, you'd have to play the first battle against a "Cunning" Confederate AI or something.

 

If you play as the Confederates and decide to push hard for the Cemetery on the first day, well, it's going to go differently than the real battle did. Obviously.

 

One way around this would be to have AI personalities for individual Corp Generals. So maybe playing as Union, the overall Confederate AI personality would be "Determined", but then, for example, Longstreet on the second day would be Cunning or Defensive, simulating how he delayed for hours in making his attack.

[David Fair]

To reflect Heth's orders all you'd need to do is turn off "Charge" for the 1st Phase for the CSA.

[Ray_p]

The union still sucks they just break and run at every confederate charge.   Hardly realistic,   Union troops have no backbone for the most part.

[David Fair]

Ray_p - are you talking about MP or the AI?

 

In the latest patch it is a bit tougher on the CSA - I got 2 strategic victories on Day 2 and Day 4 yesterday.  

 

This is a vast improvement over the morning of Day 2 Triumphant Victories I've had in the past.

 

The AI seems to be going in the right direction and getting more challenging.

[Mr. Mercanto]

The union still sucks they just break and run at every confederate charge.   Hardly realistic,   Union troops have no backbone for the most part.

Playing as the Union is tough but remember we do have more men. Part of the game comes down to whether you prefer to fight on the tactical offensive or defensive. Personally, I prefer the tactical defensive. This and my general preference for the Union in the actual Civil War makes the Union the perfect choice for me. If you prefer the tactical offensive and have no interest concerning the actual forces in the war, then you may prefer Confederate. 

Although the Union forces in this game are a bit unrealistically prone to break, it is true that the Confederates had an elan that the Union Army of the Potomac did not yet posses. The Potomac army had many reasons to lack self-confidence and the Rebel army under Lee had just achieved one of its most impressive victories.

That being said, I think for the most part the superiority of Rebel troops in this game is really just for the sake of balancing the game. Otherwise the Rebels would lose by sheer weight of numbers. At the end of the day, The Army of the Potomac received and delivered casualties at an astounding level. 

My advice on whipping Lee and the Rebels as the Union; bring your superior numbers to bear by intelligent flanking and superior lines. Also, always deploy defensively on hills. 

 

[Ray_p]

Got about 150 hrs in the game, and I've tried a number of tips and strategy's on the union side.   Switched back to fighting with the south,  never could get my union troops to hold and it is just to frustrating. I think ypou have more work to do on getting this more balanced before it's final release., 

[Mr. Mercanto]

Got about 150 hrs in the game, and I've tried a number of tips and strategy's on the union side.   Switched back to fighting with the south,  never could get my union troops to hold and it is just to frustrating. I think ypou have more work to do on getting this more balanced before it's final release., 

If its any comfort I'm in the other camp. I can win as the Rebels on easy difficulty settings but not on harder ones. As the Union, I can whip the Rebels on any difficulty and I have often been able to defeat the Determined AI with grand offensive counter-attacks on the Second Day (which I'm rather proud of as attacking with the Union is a challenge). 

I think part of it comes down to how you like to fight. I prefer to fight defensively and counter-punch. This makes it easier for me to fight as the Union because that is what you have to do. Lure your enemy into traps and use the ground against them. 

If you're more of an offensive fighter and want to control the action directly then just stick with the Rebels. Personally, I'm better at adapting to my opponents tactics I then I am to shaping a battle. What I really like about this game is both approaches, Offensive and Defensive, are difficult in their own way. 

If you really, really want to win as the Union, remember that Union troops are designed to be less effective in hand to hand combat and will not maintain as high a morale as long. That being said, they are better drilled and armed, so prolonged volley exchanges are to their advantage. Avoid enemy charges except when the enemy must charge uphill. Also, when engaged in firefights, use your superior numbers to flank the enemy. This will force them to either exchange volleys (and lose) or retreat (and lose). If they charge, then throughout their charge they will be under repeated fire by your flanking brigade. This all but guarantees victory. 

Use interior lines. Do you have three brigades engaging one Rebel brigade? If so, then you are wasting a brigade. Unless they are fighting an exceptionally powerful unit (say the Stonewall Brigade or Armistead's brigade) then at least one can be shifted via your interior lines to a different section. Moving troops efficently between your lines will always allow you to flank the Rebels and make their charges suicide. 

Artillery. Union artillery is superior to Rebel Artillery. Though it is finicky, the artillery system has improved and can prove vital. In an exchange of volley fire, a level 1 Union brigade can beat a level 2 or even level 3 Rebel brigade if it has artillery support. You will lose batteries but you will win battles. 

Use the "Hold" button carefully. Do not be afraid to give ground. The "don't give an inch" policy is feckless and mythical. Case-in-point, the 20th Maine Regiment of Volunteers who famously held the left flank of Little Round Top retreated and retook their position on the hill more then seven times (at least according to Chamberlains memoirs). Brigades need to have the freedom to readjust and maneuver. Trust your brigade commanders. They will not give ground unless they have to. For what its worth, I usually score "Decisive" and "Triumphant" victories and I never touch that Hold button. I place my brigades where I want them and have lines of retreat ready. 

Giving ground also refers to hills and even VPs. Sometimes they are not worth keeping. McPherson Ridge will usually be taken Day 1 and I know at times I've lost Seminary Ridge. In my last campaign, I had to give Seminary Ridge to the Rebels when I was becoming overwhelmed. I lost the ridge but I did not lose a single brigade and the Rebels wrecked their Corps attacking Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill. On the second day of battle I captured Benner's Hill, but on the Third Day the Rebels attacked it with overwhelming force. What did I do? I recognized that to much of strength was on the Left at Cemetary Ridge and redeployed my army off of Benner's Hill, losing it to the Confederates. In that time I also lost Culp's Hill. That being said, because I fought a fighting retreat and prepared a stronger defensive astride Cemetary Hill, the Rebels became so exhausted in their second attack that I was able to retake Benner's Hill and was retaking Culp's Hill when the battle ended. In the process I inflicted a casualty ratio of 2:1 in my favour. This is because I was willing to give ground and retake it. Its like military judeo, use the Rebels' strength against them. Let them become exhausted fighting and charging. Then bring up your reserves, flank them, and drive them back.

Otherwise simply get on top of a hill with good cover and flanking brigade and let the Rebels try to shake you off. If they do, fall back into reinforcements and smaller interior lines. This smaller defensive will break the Rebels. Then counter attack. If they don't shake you off then you already won. 

Hopefully you find something useful in that mess of words lol.

 

[Mr. Mercanto]

Wow! I got a comment like by Nick!