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Ghroznak

Ship Trim bonuses - Crew Space useless?

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I've been delving into the ship building and decided to make an Exceptional quality Privateer for capturing trading ships and earn both some gold as well as getting resources to build more ships.

 

I decided to make it out of Oak to withstand some of those carronade hits from the Trader Snows, and with Crew Space as the trim so I have enough crew to take over Snows easily.

 

And therein lies my mistake.

 

A regular Privateer has 60 crew.

 

My Exceptional Privateer with gold Crew Space upgrade has...

 

<drum whirl>

 

63

 

Are you kidding me ?

 

Now color me a fool for not checking this beforehand, but I (wrongly) thought that the trim / built-in upgrade with offer a significant change to the amount of Crew the ship would be able to hold. As it turns out, gold Crew Space = 5% upgrade, ergo 3 men on a 60 man ship.

 

That, in my view at least, is absolutely horrible and severely unbalanced when measured against the other three alternatives for the trim.

 

Even if you have a 600 man ship, the 5% only equates to 30 men, thus giving you 630 men rather than 600. In terms of a boarding or battle, those 30 men make zero difference, just as 3 men make zero difference on a 60 man Privateer.

 

With Build Strength you get more hitpoints, with planking you get reduced leaks, and with rigging you get a more maneuverable ship.

 

With Crew Space you get a whole lot of nothing.

 

Maybe I am completely wrong, or just frustrated with the disappointing effect Crew Space has, but the way I see it the Crew Space trim is 100% useless and will never be chosen by any captain or crafter when building a ship.

 

And when something becomes entirely useless when measured against the alternatives then I only see three valid ways to move forward.

  1. Remove Crew Space entirely as a Trim option.
  2. Replace Crew Space with something else which will be a valid option, measured with the other trim options
  3. Increase the efficiency of the current Crew Space

The way it is right now, noone in their right mind will choose Crew Space over Build Strength, Planking or Rigging Quality. When doing so the only thing you achieve is gimping your own ship.

 

And for the record, I added a Common Extra Hammocks upgrade, so now I have 64 Crew onboard. A whooping +1 crew member.

 

Disappointed, frustrated... and will never build a ship with Crew Space again unless Crew Space is buffed up in effect. Optionally, whatever it is replaced with might be considered... or for all I care, remove it altogether as it is a hugely pointless Trim upgrade in it's current form.

 

** edit, fixed some grammer and added screenshot of current Privateer **

 

3SGUl51.png

Edited by Ghroznak
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Well, 75 crew is roughly what I was expecting to get with the Crew Space + Hammocks.

 

I was sorely disappointed.

 

Obviously I should have looked into the details on how much Crew Space adds, but I was convinced that it would have to be a significant amount given that it is one of the primary stats for a ship during the crafting process.

 

Lesson learned though, and Crew Space will not be used again.

 

Just wanted to bring this up here because I hate seeing options that are never used in games because they are simply useless (which means they need to be fixed, replaced or removed).

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Has nothing to do with your complaint but why not just use a snow for traders. I mean traders are not exactly hard to catch unless you mess up the tag, but a snow with its fore guns lets you just sail up beside a brig or snow  and push them into the wind and board.

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Has nothing to do with your complaint but why not just use a snow for traders. I mean traders are not exactly hard to catch unless you mess up the tag, but a snow with its fore guns lets you just sail up beside a brig or snow  and push them into the wind and board.

 

Well, a few reasons.

 

*Everyone* uses Snows. I hate mainstream thing. I like to use something different and more unique.

The Privateer has better OW speed than the Snow, especially close hauled.

I recently got the Privateer BP and wanted to make a Privateer.

Also, the Privateer reminds me strongly of the Sloop you started with in Sid Meiers Pirates, which I loved, so it's a bit of nostalgia.

 

And in retrospect, I am glad I didn't waste the resources needed for a Snow considering how worthless the Crew Space upgrade was...

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May well be that crew space needs to be buffed.  10% sounds "more right" with exceptional crew space.  But that's very much just adjusting by feel.

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I tend to agree with both Groznak and Powderhorn on this one. The return on your investment for Crew Space or Extra Hammocks seems a tad anemic for an Exceptional upgrade.

 

But I also agree with Powderhorn that the limit should probably be held to no more than 10%. To use Groznak's example, a 600 crewed ship would then have added 60 crew, which is a significant addition (using Exceptional upgrade).

 

Like many new ideas suggested for the game, it could be implemented for a period of time for testing, if the developers agree with the suggestion. It is, however, most likely that they have a valid reason for the percentages currently given to these two upgrades. Let's see.

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They might have good reason for such a conservative number on the amount of crew you get.

However, in its current state noone will use Crew Space over the other options, ergo the Crew Space simply exists as the 'whatever you do, don't build with Crew Space'.

Everyone knows it is rubbish, so why keep it around in current state?

As this is alpha now is the time to tweak and test the values. 5% is much too conservative for it to be viable.

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It is, however, most likely that they have a valid reason for the percentages currently given to these two upgrades. Let's see.

 

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

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All upgrades in this game only give 1% or even less to a few more percentage, that are always insignificant, if you change the value of extra crew to 10% or so, then you have to change the value for all upgrades to keep the balance, and so the upgrades will give to much bonus.

If you want a better ships in this game, just use the higher tier, you can't just use a 7th rate ship and expect that with exceptional outfit it'll be worth a 6 th rate, to me it's a good point.

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All upgrades in this game only give 1% or even less to a few more percentage, that are always insignificant, if you change the value of extra crew to 10% or so, then you have to change the value for all upgrades to keep the balance, and so the upgrades will give to much bonus.

If you want a better ships in this game, just use the higher tier, you can't just use a 7th rate ship and expect that with exceptional outfit it'll be worth a 6 th rate, to me it's a good point.

 

That's not correct. Boarding Axes make you disengage from boarding 25% faster.

Boarding parties give massive preparation bonuses, even basic parties add +10% to brace, exceptionals are up to +50%.

And they even recharge prep when you don't brace, which is infinitely more than not having any.

Reinforced Masts exceptional double mast HP.

 

 

Good upgrades are not a bad thing to have. Those that already are good are not game-breaking. Having upgrades as irrelevant makes for a bland game, really. The only thing to avoid is +damage upgrades.

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They might have good reason for such a conservative number on the amount of crew you get.

However, in its current state noone will use Crew Space over the other options, ergo the Crew Space simply exists as the 'whatever you do, don't build with Crew Space'.

Everyone knows it is rubbish, so why keep it around in current state?

As this is alpha now is the time to tweak and test the values. 5% is much too conservative for it to be viable.

Can you stop making clueless statements and assumptions about things you don't understand? k thxxx

I don't even care what you think about this trim option but new players who come here to read such misinformation about trims might get wrong impressions.

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Tried "crew space" once on a basic trader lynx and to my surprise it ended with 19 crew only o_ O

 

323976crew.jpg

 

Never tried it again .

 

Would like to see cargo space improved for ships as trim instead :P 

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Can you stop making clueless statements and assumptions about things you don't understand? k thxxx

I don't even care what you think about this trim option but new players who come here to read such misinformation about trims might get wrong impressions.

 

If there is something I don't understand, then I am assuming you do understand it. So please share your knowledge and contribute to the discussion. Your input would be appreciated as long as it remains constructive.

 

As for new players coming here to read misinformation, please specify which part of this discussion is misinformation. I've clearly shown what the Crew Space adds to your numbers. With Gold/Yellow Crew Space upgrade you go from 60 crew to 63 crew. Do a tiny bit of math and you find that the bonus you get is 5%. How is this misinformation?

 

Anyways, moving on.

 

Seeing as the grey tweaks penalize you rather than give you any bonus it seems to me something must be wrong with the scaling of the upgrades. If the gold one gives you 5%, then does the grey one give you -1% or -2%. Something is certainly off with the whole Crew Space "upgrade".

 

Also, it's not about making the % number equal for all upgrades. That's not really balancing them other than an accountants way of keeping balance. Each Trim upgrade needs to be compared to the other Trim upgrades to see if it is a viable choice. If one Trim upgrade is so inferior to the other 3 that noone uses it, then it is obvious it needs to be looked at.

 

Why keep something noone uses in the game at all? It's a waste of space and ends up being just a frustration for new players as they, not knowing better, try it out and end up with disappointing results... and then later, most likely, will hear from forum, friends or clan mates that "oh yeah, don't use that upgrade, it sucks".

 

If it sucks, or is not viable when measured against the other Trim upgrades then something needs to be done with it to make it an attractive choice again.

Edited by Ghroznak

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That's a general bug with grey tweaks. They are actually slight penalties.

Thanks for the info, could not have guessed this was a know bug.

 

As for combat ships the crew space if it was doen in larger proportions that what it apparently is could be a viable thing, more manopwer is good especially when you see how many crews can get some AI ships, for traders what will it bring ? Will the sails be raised faster and such, by how much percentage ? What is the concrete gain in having a few more crews in a gold trader ship outside the boarding defense that is a lost cause 99% of the times anyways ?

 

Maybe they should do it so it indeed lowers the crews numbers on traders, without any downside to the sailing efficiency but it will raise the cargo space capacity by a certain % when doing a crew space oriented trader, or give it more speed maybe a few less crew members and them supplies for the travels will make the ship a bit more light on water...

 

Otherwise this option is just useless for traders as it also is in the current state with so few crews added on combat ships.

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Ironic how somehow NPCs can sail 75 crew privateers...

 

My observation has been that pretty much every NPC has what amounts to a marines and extra hammocks upgrade. It's the only way I've been able to explain the overcrew, and every NPC I've ever boarded has marines present.

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Is this true for trims other than crew space? Can you say lose HP from grey build strength?

I think it sadly is, had a basic lynx with built in random upgrade speed ending up slower in the stats compared to the same one using the same wood but who came out with stiffness as random upgrade ... 

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My observation has been that pretty much every NPC has what amounts to a marines and extra hammocks upgrade. It's the only way I've been able to explain the overcrew, and every NPC I've ever boarded has marines present.

NPC ships could be cheating though and simply hardcoded to have X crew to give us more of a challenge.

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NPC ships could be cheating though and simply hardcoded to have X crew to give us more of a challenge.

Just as every NPC ship has a full complement of Marines (without reload penalty btw) they also never use carronades.  Which gimps NPC Mercs and Belle Poules.

 

I just chalk it up to 'one of those things' for the time being.  Sure it will be revisited at some point.

 

In the meantime just try to spread the word to only use 'build str' or 'planking' and for boarding specialization Marines are a must have (why there is not a base small complement of Marines on a warship idk) and Boarding Parties a nice option.

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@Grohznak, get yourself some marines, mate.  Marines and Boarding Parties make a huge difference in boarding actions.  Marines give you an extra 10% crew who are specialized in boarding.  Stack on some other boarding mods (I prefer to max out my attack) and you'll be able to tackle a trader.  I've been having great fun hunting traders in a Pickle I crafted, but if I can get a Privateer BP then I'll switch to that.  Far from the most efficient method for hunting traders (I've got a Renommee for that), but definitely a bunch of fun.

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