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Posts posted by Malachi
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We already have this ship model in-game and doing the interiors for all ships would be a gigantic time sink for the devs. Not going to happen.
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26 minutes ago, jodgi said:
What would you suggest about acceleration and game balance? Bellona and connie are currently placed in the same class. They have clearly different L/B ratios sailing in one single sea state and one single wind state and are both able to set all sails at any point of the wind. Should connie be allowed to accelerate faster than Bellona or not? What would our gameplay and ship viability choices be?
Quite honestly, I have no idea. You could play around with wetted surface / sail area ratios (the former easily obtained from the ingame models) but such numbers would just give a hint at the potential performance, no 'hard evidence'. Regarding Connie/Bellona: I'd hazard a guess that Connie has a larger sail area, so she theoretically should accelerate faster. If that would be beneficial for gameplay is another jolly good question.
26 minutes ago, jodgi said:What is this ship you speak of, btw, it doesn't sound like the Endy (based on gun deck length)?
Slade's Niger/Alarm class.
125' / 35' 2'' , L/B 3.55
11 knots close-hauled and 13,5 knots with the wind abaft the beam. Extremely responsive, liked heavy weather and could carry her sails 'as long as her masts would bear it'.
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2 hours ago, jodgi said:
The ship with the highest length/girth ratio would have the lower resistance and thus the highest potential for both top speed and acceleration.
This is true but we´re talking sailing ships. Out of two vessels with the same wetted surface area, same draft, but a different length/breadth ratio, the one with more beam is most probably more stable and thus able to carry more sail in the same wind conditions. And there´s a good chance that this more than offsets the theoretical high L/B ratio speed advantage.
One of the fastest frigates in the Age of Sail had a length/breadth ratio of around 3.50 and her body plan looks like a box with slightly beveled edges. Didn´t matter, because she simply 'outcarried' her competition.
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Gerade?
Nuja, den Anfang vom Ende würd ich jetzt ein bischen früher ansetzen
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32 minutes ago, admin said:
There will be no more discussions in public.
There will be community liaisons selected from players and nations who will talk to a general public and pass information we should look at to us.
More information will follow some time in the future.This is how it should have been done since 2013, to be honest. No discussions, no forum opinions with an impact on development and no ship selection polls.
'Democracy' doesn´t seem work as far as game development is concerned. The mess we've been through in last couple of years should be proof enough for that.
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35 minutes ago, Teutonic said:
where have you been that you didn't see the DLC ships being overpowered?
Probably in a DLC ship.
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12 minutes ago, William Death said:
In fact, if I remember correctly there were instances of slow British frigates being caught by the fast French 74s.
And instances of 'slow' british ships of the line catching 'fast' french frigates, although this usually happened in bad weather situations. A relatively small ship has distinctive speed disadvantage vs. a larger one in heavy seas.
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https://www.amazon.de/Frigate-Commander-Tom-Wareham/dp/1848848595
QuoteFrigate Commander is based on the private journal of Lieutenant - and then Captain - Graham Moore, a naval officer serving during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Moore's journal gives a unique and detailed account of what life was like for a serving naval officer. In particular it reveals the problems an officer had in managing the crew of a frigate, maintaining discipline and turning his ship into an efficient man of war.
Best naval history book I've read for a long time. By the way, Moore´s the guy who captured the last big spanish treasure convoy, commanding Indefatigable.
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Thanks, Wagram
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On 3/29/2019 at 8:02 AM, LeBoiteux said:
Do you really mean by "painted canvas" that it was painted on a long canvas by a painter then fixed all around the ship ?
Canvas = same material the sails are made of
These arming cloths (or 'fights') were the precursor of the hammock netting, in use until the middle of the 18th century.
The pic you posted is the only one I know where french arming cloths are depicted.
Here is the british version, red with a thin white border:
Boscawen (ex-La Medée), 1752
'Resolution in a Gale', Van de Velde, ca. 1678
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Pretty sure that the blue stripe with the fleur de lis is painted canvas, I think the English name is arming cloth (the british version was red with a thin white stripe).
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Quote
To be termed a "Gundeck", it must be a continuous sweep of deck with cannons entirely along it's length.
Nope. Gun Deck is just the lower deck on ships with two decks. Here´s what Mr R. Gardiner has to say about it:
However, it was not just size that was the problem with the sixth rates, since they were built to a clumsy two-decked design. The lower deck - for historical reasons called the 'Gun Deck' - only had ports for 2 guns a side, the remaining space being taken up with oar ports, but this deck had to be far enough above the waterline to allow the guns to be worked when the ship was heeling or rolling in a seaway. This meant that the 'Upper Deck' - in effect, the main gun deck - was even higher out of the water, with the resulting problems of stability and windage caused by the relatively tall hull sides.
The British called the lower deck on frigates Gun Deck long after the Establishment Sixth Rates Gardiner is talking about have been replaced by 'true' frigates based on Le Tygre.
QuoteThe upper deck of a 5th rate has secondary guns on it and is broken by the sail handling gangways.
The Upper Deck carries the main armament
By the way, it´s good to have this in mind when using threedecks.org, especially when looking at earlier frigates, Gun Deck = Lower Deck.
E.g. :
https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=5384
Here´s a detail of the plan for Mermaid
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Frigates have two continuous decks, one is armed, one is not.
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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:
17th century Frigates were in fact two deckers until some clever bloke decided to take one deck off.
'True' frigates are two-deckers. Just sayin...
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Heh, she´s already carrying a too heavy armament in-game now, 9-pounders would be overkill (from a historical point of view, not speaking about balancing).
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Makes sense. Although the only contemporary evidence for the black and white colour scheme are the two models.
There are a couple of water colours by Antoine Roux of swedish vessels which suggest that the standard colour scheme was yellow ocre/ black with a thin stripe across the gunports.
By the way, some of the figureheads of Bellona - and Gustav Adolph-class survived until this day and a couple of them are painted red (but white below).
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6 minutes ago, admin said:
Hope you will not get attached to names.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_ships_of_Sweden#Wasa_classThat wiki entry needs an update, the Hedvig Elisabet Charlotta certainly wasn´t part of the Wasa-class, she was 7' longer.
Just as the Gustav Adolphs were 4' longer than Wasa. And not in the same class.
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Just to get the history straight...
there was only one Wasa-class ship, the Wasa. Then were was the Gustav Adolph-class with 10 ships total (including the Rättvisan).
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46 minutes ago, admin said:
Regarding Wasa class
Wasa is a 4th rate (its in your threedecks link too). Wasa we have in game is not Wasa, its Chronprins Gustav Adolf (its written on the stern) and it will be renamed before release.Hmhm, threedecks....
Wasa draught says 60 gun ship, Gustav Adolph-class (Rättvisan) draught says 60 gun ship. The latter were only 4' longer anyway.
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U-oh, this thread....
Could someone please enlighten me...both the Wasa- and the Gustav Adolph-class were considered 60-gun ships in the swedish Navy (and their plans say just that: 60 guns).
So how can one be a third and one a fourth rate? I don´t care about the overall rating in-game, but if it´s practically the same ship, there should be some consistency, right?
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4 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:
To say the least ! Was it deliberate ? To frighten the enemy ? 😉
Hehe, it doesn´t look that bad, does it ^^
But the Venus was designed for a very specific environment in mind, the Baltic with the most likely opponent, Sweden. The swedish skerry fleet operated large squadrons of very efficient gunboats* and the usual modus operandi was to attack becalmed vessels 'from behind' or bow on, so a efficient defense against these stern rakes was important to Hohlenberg. The narrow stern with its sturdy construction offered a bit more protection than a conventional one and the last two broadside guns could also be aimed at the enemy (if not directly behind the ship).
3 hours ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:If Hohlenberg also designed merchant ships it may well influence my view that the class has a mercantile look about them, from the short biography it would seem that he was certainly a 'radical' designer.
Hm, as far as I know, he, unlike his predecessors, didn´t build any merchant vessels. But I'll have a look again, interesting point
According to Hohlenberg himself, the hull with the straight sides and the V-shape - which he called kutter façon - was mainly inspired by the ideas of af Chapman. He seemed to be have been pretty impressed by what he saw during his stay at Karlskrona, especially by the fact that swedish vessels needed needed just half of the amount of ballast compared to their danish counterparts (for a 40-gun frigate, that´d be around 100 tons less) and by the efficient use of timber.
Curiously enough, when the British took possession the 74 -gun Norge, one navy official initially thought her to be 'one of the master pieces of the celebrated Chapman' (Norge had a conventional, single-tier stern, just like e.g. Wasa). That certainly didn´t happen with the Christian VII and her typical 'Hohlenberg stern'.
* designed by af Chapman. The Danes built 300+ boats to the same design during the war with GB
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Nymphen, 1832
Now for something special...the danish Venus of 1805. Certainly not the most beautiful frigate ever built, featuring a stern only a mother could love, but interesting nonetheless
Venus. Inboard Profile, 1803
Venus. Sailplan, 1803
Venus. Stern and Head, 1803
Najaden. Stern and Head, 1810
'The Danish ship Christian the Seventh, when commanded by Sir Joseph Yorke, had the first character in the English Navy as a man of war; and the Danemark and Norge, ships of war - and Venus, Danish frigate, alike shew that a very small maritime power excelled the proud ruler of the main in ship-building.'
British Chronicle, 1827
Quotes like these show what the British thought about the ships designed by Hohlenberg they captured at Copenhagen in 1807.
In Denmark, opinions were a quite bit different, at least during his lifetime.
His Fleet Plan of 1801 had been a complete failure and after the mysterious loss of the Hvide Ørn in the Med, his qualification for the highest post in the danish shipbuilding hierarchy was in serious doubt.
The Venus was one the last ships Hohlenberg drew up plans for before he left the office of fabrikmester in late 1803 and just like most vessels he designed, he would never see her afloat.
Yet, in 1809, the danish Admiralty would choose the design of the Venus for five new frigates and as the largest vessels they´d build during the Gunboat War with Great Britain (with the exception of the 60-gun Phoenix).
Comparison with a couple of contemporary frigates:
All dimensions and weights in imperial feet and pounds avoirdupois
The Ships
Venus (I)
Danish service 1805 - 1807
British service 1808 - 1815
Venus enjoyed a rather short but busy career in the Royal Navy, stationed in the North Sea, North America, the Leeward Islands and the East Indies within just six years.
Najaden 1811 - 1812
Destroyed by the 64-gun Dictator at the Battle of Lyngør
Venus (II) 1812 - 1835
Perlen 1812 - 1814
Minerva 1813 - 1836
Fylla 1815 - 1853
Sold mercantile, stranded Port Louis 1861
Nymphen 1816 - 1853
Sold mercantile, last mentioned 1869
Short Hohlenberg bio (shamelessly copied from my post in the History sub-forum)
Born in 1764, he enlisted in the danish navy in at the age of 12 and became second lieutenant in 1782. Higher mathematics and shipbuilding were a part of the curriculum at the danish naval academy and Hohlenberg´s talent in these fields were quickly recognised. He then began to study the finer points of naval architecture under the tutorship of fabrikmester* Hendrik Gerner.
In 1788, Hohlenberg and another student, T. Jessen, were deemed experienced enough to go on the obligatory study trip through european shipyards. The Netherlands and England were first on the list, followed by France, Italy / Venice and finally Sweden. The stays in France (where he met J.-C. de Borda) and Sweden particularly impressed Hohlenberg and were to have a lasting impact on his future work, especially the three months he spent studying under Hendrik af Chapman.
He returned to Denmark in 1794 and became a teacher at the naval academy, followed by the promotion to kaptajnløjtnant and interim fabrikmester in 1796.
In the same year, he submitted his first design - that of a 12-pounder frigate - to the shipbuilding commission, featuring his own ideas and incorporating all the improvements he had seen during his study trip.
After this design has been approved, he became fabrikmester in 1797. But his tenure was to last just six years, cut short by the heavy criticism he received for his radical design concepts (and his fleet program) from the naval establishment which ultimately led to his resignation in 1803. He died on St. Croix in 1804.
All in all, Hohlenberg designed four ships of the line, thirteen frigates, three brigs and four schooners for the danish navy. Most of the bigger vessel were built after his death, though, from 1809 to 1817.
After the Second Battle of Copenhagen in 1807, all surviving Hohlenberg ships were incorporated into the Royal Navy. Especially the 80-gun Christian VII, generally considered as his masterpiece, was very highly regarded in british service (with the exception of the very narrow stern). It also has the distinction of being the only non-french design the Royal Navy copied, with an 80-gun ship, several 74s and 50s built to her lines.
Swift and very nimble for her size, she combined speed, sea keeping ability and a very robust construction and - unlike her captured french counterparts - stood up easily to the rigors of british sea service.
*a post similar to the british surveyor
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Ship class names
in General discussions
Posted
I don´t have UA yet, but if the ships are the same as in NA, then Dédaigneuse-class would be correct for the La Belle Poule model.
L'Hermione -> Concorde-class
Not sure about the UA Diana, the one in NA belongs to the spanish Mahonesa-class.
And you're correct about Cerberus/Coventry