Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

John Jacob Astor

Members
  • Content Count

    320
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by John Jacob Astor

  1. Now I think I finally understand your apparent stance on the baseline economics as regarding doubloons and crafting. The game is advertised as hardcore and realistic. Apparently the realism doesn't include merchant activity. At least not at any levels appropriate to the "beautiful age of sail." You apparently want all players engaging in combat at every sailing. Any economically meaningful level of crafting appears to be dependent on it. Yes, merchants playing on the War server should expect some degree of risk. But not need to regularly sail through the middle of Trafalgar. Well it is your game. Time for me to move on.
  2. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    Whether the doubloon price is astronomical depends on what they are being used for. If for notes, books, and for the component in the line ships, the prices are probably too low. If to buy extra labor, then yes. The prices are astronomical. Getting labor hours out of the same bucket as notes and books simply does not work. If you are going to insist on using Doubloons for this the labor hour yield from a contract would need to be increased by at least a factor of 10 for this to come close to making any economic sense. Probably a good deal more.
  3. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    Level 3 production buildings and a level 3 shipyard. Labor hour bonus. Using that yields a slightly more optimistic estimate.
  4. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    Which is what I was doing last spring before the DLC releases pretty much broke the market sector I selling into. In order for this to happen you need quite a few more folks interested in selling resources and crafted ships. Then the price comes down. But for this to happen the baseline resource and crafting math has to actually work. It currently does not. Resource extraction and ship crafting is currently restricted to free labor. Or it has to be subsidized with doubloons from combat. This is not a recipe for a self-sustaining economy. I am currently able to get Doubloons in the free ports for about 110 Reals each. This appears to result in an L3 labor valuation for a fir/fir T-brig (resources + shipyard) of roughly 80,000 Reals. Which pretty much swamps the straight cost in Reals used for the resources. And makes an Admiralty sale pretty much meaningless. I am really quite curious to know what you consider "el dorado" prices. What would you expect to pay for a fir/fir T-brig?
  5. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    AI yes. Crafting not so much. Unless you stick to free labor. But the economics blow all to hell if you start buying doubloons to get the labor. Don't have my notes handy but I suspect that 3k is in the neighborhood of the resource costs for a baseline build. With NO meaningful allowance for the labor costs for the resources and ship
  6. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    Won't be waiting around for that. I'm sure this will be a great game. But it's about done holding my interest.
  7. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    If you notice this site hasn't exactly kept up with game changes. I don't think he's been playing for some time. If he is still active he is free to chime in.
  8. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    Nothing. Except the folks that put API data on the web tend to be interested in combat mechanics. Not in economics.
  9. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    This is not exactly "improved trading." Unless you make the information available in a way that the user does not have to be a coder to access. Except that no merchant of any consequence visits every location they do business in. They have people for that.
  10. John Jacob Astor

    Economy update 2. Improved trading

    Final? So no other changes to the economy? Current trading ranges for Doubloons makes them impractical to use for extra labor if selling resources and crafted ships. This throttles contract market activity. Either 1) extra labor needs to be paid for in Reals or 2) merchants need their own way of obtaining extra labor for Reals that is separate from the Admiralty conversion. Given what else Doubloons are used for I am not seeing how they could possibly be balanced so as to make extra labor a practical option. Except for maybe successful combat players who can simply ignore the trading cost.
  11. John Jacob Astor

    War server player stats.

    Possibly. On the other hand I bought this game (US player) because I was intrigued by the age of sail. I got hooked (last spring) by a player-to-player economy. Which is why I am waiting around for the updates. I play games because I like them. I stop playing because I don't. I never went anywhere near user forums for any of them until I had to sort out the mechanics of how to play THIS game. If Steam allows it, the only way to actually know this answer to this question is with actual customer surveys. Self-generated online reviews (weighted toward the crabby customer) and the relatively small numbers that post in these forums aren't really going to give you a meaningful answer to that question.
  12. John Jacob Astor

    War server player stats.

    Do you have this data available for contract sales of resources and crafted ship sales?
  13. John Jacob Astor

    Typical day in NA

    Perhaps I misunderstood you but I was referencing your comment on crafting. It has to do with why I was crafting last spring and am doing very little now. It currently lacks an underlying economic logic. Unless you have alts and the free labor they provide. It may be possible to just have crafting without functioning ship markets. But it will be bottlenecked to a small number of players.
  14. John Jacob Astor

    Typical day in NA

    In order for this to happen crafting needs to be interesting. Which means having player-to-player markets that actually work. That was what hooked me on on the game. The intermediate materials was just busywork and I was frankly glad to see that go. But what kept me in the game was finding a crafting niche and selling ships. I've reached level 50 since stumbling into this game last Spring. Being chased around and occasionally caught added a fair bit of fizz to the drink and made it MORE interesting. So no, I am not looking to turn this into a PvE server. But it doesn't work when the game mechanics either compete directly against player sales, or in some cases, outright keep markets from functioning. For instance, I am having difficulty understanding why anyone would craft a Surprise. As of Saturday a Bermuda Cedar (planking & frame) ship was for sale in La Tortue for 99,000 Reals. At an available price (as of server refresh) the option wood cost 13 Reals per unit. Which yields a total baseline resource cost for building the Surprise of approximately 9,900 Reals. But at the price I am currently able to consistently buy Doubloons, the resultant labor valuation is nearly ten times that. So why would anyone craft this to sell to another player when you can buy the note in the Admiralty for 1500 Doubloons? There is no way to sell the Surprise at a high enough price to make money on it. Buyers will skip that and just go buy the note with their Doubloon hoard. I've come to a firm conclusion on this. I don't think will be possible to balance the Doubloon layer in the economy as long extra labor is for crafting is dependent on it. One of two things needs to happen. Either, 1) Extra labor needs to be paid for in Reals. Mixed-game crafters will find this an annoyance. But based on what I'm seeing in the Doubloon markets you all are unlikely to have any trouble selling them, either in Free Ports, or your national capitals. In two weeks my arbitrage volume (Freeports to Charleston) has reached levels where I actually have to pay attention to the limits of my Money Chest. 2) Merchant players (shipbuilders and resource sellers) need to have a realistic way of buying extra labor that is not depended on Doubloons. Agreed. The player-to-player economy needs to actually work if it's going to be included in the game. It IS why I have been waiting around...
  15. The value is whatever what someone is willing to pay you for them in either the Freeports or your national capital. There was a contract to buy posted in Aves this morning at 150 Reals. I'm getting 250 easy in Charleston. I could probably get more, but even profiteers have limits But don't bother trying to sell them anywhere else. This localized stove-piping rather skews the markets and helps blow up the economics of using them for extra labor. Which in-turn throttles baseline ship crafting and resource sales down to what can be done with the free labor allotment. Of course players who are "swimming" in doubloons, as @admin puts it, will simply ignore the labor cost. I don't think it will address the supply problem as it appears to be more attractive to spend them on admiralty goodies than sell them for Reals. But we really DO need global contract visibility of some sort.
  16. If players are swimming in them they are not actually selling them. At least not in any of the markets I use. There are plenty of offers to buy in the 10-20 range. But none of those contracts are moving. To actually get the contracts filled I need to place them in the 70-90 range. Which makes them unusable for labor contracts. But perfect for selling into a national capitol at three and four to one. Seeing as how I appear to be the ONLY serious seller in the US. 10 reals to the doubloon would make labor contracts a realistic option for resource and ship production. It's a week later and I am not seeing anything even close to that price. Again, what is the incentive to sell Doubloons for Reals in the contract markets, as opposed to spending them on Admiralty goodies? I am beginning to think the objective actually IS to force players to do combat and missions. That's the only way this market structure makes any sense.
  17. As a follow-up to last week's tentative observation. No longer tentative. This clearly is not a usable option, either to sell resources, or to sell crafted ships. Unless the intent is to force everybody to do missions and combat to raise the necessary doubloons. If that is NOT the intent, there are simply not enough doubloons entering the markets to bring the price down to usable levels. Increasing the player population won't fix that. That merely translates the imbalance up to larger scales. I can reliably post contracts for doubloons in free ports. But the price yields an extra labor cost for a T-Brig (L3 resource + L3 shipyard) that is approximately seventeen times the cost in Reals for resources. This is a labor valuation more appropriate to pre-robotics assembly lines in Detroit and the United Auto Workers. There are, however, enough plenty of doubloons entering the Free Port markets to enable me to make a killing selling them the national capitol. Which is fine, I suppose. But I would rather be building and selling ships. There clearly is a demand. But not to buy extra labor. If extra labor is being used, it's going directly into ships for a players' own use, and is not any meaningful component of the player economy. In order for labor contracts to be of any meaningful use in the player-to-player economy either: 1) the Doubloon layer in the economy needs to be adjusted so Doubloon earners have plenty of Doubloons but are chronically short of Reals, 2) or extra labor needs to be paid for in Reals instead of Doubloons. 3) or merchants need their own way to generate extra labor, independent of the Admiralty. I don't have an opinion on which of these would work the best. But #3 might augment the economy without disrupting existing balancing in Doubloons. One possibility would be to reintroduce the extra labor building, allow it to be built anywhere and use Reals for input. But control the proliferation of the building by requiring the presence of one or more L2, or L3 buildings in the port as a prerequisite for construction.
  18. John Jacob Astor

    Muskets, the new golden marines?

    Never used this so what I offer is an observation on real-world conditions. Having actually fired muzzle-loaders. 2-3 rounds per minutes is only realistic with training and practice. In reality in the middle of a combat adrenaline dump fine motor skills go out the window which is what you actually need to reload the thing. At any range at all smooth-bore musket accuracy is non-existent. The effectiveness is primarily as a massed fire weapon. Then there is the matter of the panic setting in at close range with someone coming at you with an edged weapon. Weapons were found on US civil war battlefields with more than one charge stuffed down the barrel. In the midst of the panic response the weapon never even got fired. Or they had Greenpeace loads. Ball first, then the powder. Or the ramrod was left in the barrel and the weapon fired. Assuming that the mass of a steel ramrod simply didn't blow the breech out of the gun reloading might be a problem. The results of the mechanic should reflect the how they actually worked in practice. They worked. A highly disciplined unit firing volleys could cut an edged-weapon charge to pieces IF they had a bit of room and couldn't be outflanked. But they were not Winchester carbines.
  19. Sold everything I built pretty much as fast as I could build them until the DLC release drove a big spike in the market sector I was selling into.
  20. Will have to disagree with that. The L3 production resource labor + shipyard labor of a T-brig is roughly half the amount of the of the labor wallet (with perks). Which means it doesn't take very much serious activity to burn through the current allotment of free labor. And of course new players will hit that wall a good deal sooner as they won't have the L3 buildings. No big deal if you are not trying to build ships for sale. Clanmates will probably give them to you. But I think I would have a very difficult time replicating what I did last spring as a startup shipbuilder and resource seller. I don't think this is a particularly difficult problem to re-balance. There are several possibilities. Either 1) the doubloons requirement for labor contracts needs to be lower, 2) Doubloon earners need some compelling reason to sell for Reals in higher volumes then at present, or 3) labor contracts need to be paid for in Reals. Then the doubloons would in actual fact only be a high rate ship issue, and the devs can wipe away.
  21. It is more attractive to spend doubloons on books (and other things) rather than selling them in the markets for Reals. The player-to-player crafting market is dependent on doubloons for extra labor.
  22. Wiping books (and buildings without compensation) will play havoc with this: The "almost" needs to be removed: Here is the problem that (uncompensated) wipes are likely to create: At present there is an insufficient volume of doubloons available in the markets to sustain any sort of meaningful crafting economy expansion using extra labor. After a wipe the volume will fall to zero until such time as all the veterans have replaced their books, doubloons for preferred ships, and level 3 shipyards (and possibly that shiny new academy as well). The crafting economy is incompatible with uncompensated wipes. They will pretty much guarantee that there won't be much of one to speak of. Any initial rush of new player sales following release will be landing in the middle of a player-to-player economy that is at best, very difficult to play, and at worst, simply does not work. At least not until the veterans all catch up with their doubloon acquisitions. The current economic design is a bit like an old engine with a carburetor. Good luck getting it started if there isn't already some fuel in the intake.
  23. Don't know anything about Rust. But my observation on regular wipes -- really depends on what kind of game this is intended to be. Given the current complexity, if a player-to-player economy is intended regular wipes are likely destructive. What applies to economies in general applies to the game. Economic activity builds up over time and is dependent in part on some measure of predictability so participants can plan. If the economy is intended to be strictly PvE with little or no player-to-player component, or simplified to the point that it's like a board game that you can walk away from, then wipes probably don't matter much.
  24. I have exploratory buy / sell contracts out in several different ports. I don't think the price has settled out yet, as it's pretty clear buyers and sellers haven't fully adjusted to the re-denomination into Reals and Doubloons. But what you are describing fits. There doesn't seem to be a compelling logic for the large scale sale of Doubloons. At least not enough to supply the volume of extra labor needed to make the crafting markets work. Combat players need them more for other things, than for the Reals that a sale generates.
  25. @admin, there may be a balance problem as relates to the actual volume of Doubloons in the market. US national markets do not have much in the way of doubloon traffic. So yesterday evening I surveyed Tumbado, Shroud, La Mona and La Tortue. I found a total of 15 contracts offering a total of 21,210 Doubloons at an average (weighted) of 153 Reals. This sounds like a lot until the volume is thought of in terms of the the crafting markets. If the L3 labor for resources and the shipyard build is added together this would appear to be roughly equivalent to the labor necessary to build slightly less than nine Indiamen. In terms of the totality of the player environment that is not very many ships. And of course extra labor for ships and resources aren't the only things that consume the coins. And then there is also the resultant cost of the labor, which seems rather high. What are the expected price ranges and volumes for Doubloons to be viable for the purchase labor contracts? Unless my math is wrong there does not appear to be a sufficient Doubloon volume entering the markets to make this bifurcated coin economy actually work. Doubloon earners are either 1) not earning enough coins, 2) do not actually need to sell them, 3) or there may be issues with the mechanics of selling them. Or possibly some combination of all three.
×