Remus
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Posts posted by Remus
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2 minutes ago, seanjo said:
Get rid of the slack in your steering rigging...
On a cutter??
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5 hours ago, The Red Duke said:
Thanks for the preliminary answer on your end of the stick
So, theoretically, investors on armament manufacture and trade can establish a solid market by simply undercutting the prices of the NPC store ( that only sells mediums ).
My last post was wrong.
Start up costs are closer to 300k. 73k for the logs, 10k for stone and 13k for iron fittings - I don't know what I was thinkiing.
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5 hours ago, The Red Duke said:
Question about cannons/carronades manufacturers aka. Armament Dealers
How much was the investment cost for:
- Establishing the outposts and buildings
Another question:
- How much does it cost to produce one cannon 6 pounds long or equivalent carronade 12 pounds
Thank you for your answers.
I cannot really add any more to @Farrago's post, but I'll write much the same things in a different way:
Start up is nearly
200k300k excluding outposts. Add another 10k and maybe another outpost for coal- Buildings: 180k (workshop, oak, iron, stone)
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Resources:
16.8k96k (7.1k73k for oak logs,1k10k for stone,8.7k13k for iron fittings)
Base cost of a 6lb long is 1240, taking 7.8 LH. 12lb carronade is 349, taking 1.83 LH.
When you first set up cannon prices on Testbed I saw they were exactly 3 times the base cost. With the change to charcoal this has changed somewhat, but mediums are now all about 2.85 times base cost. Personally I don't like working with base cost mark-ups but prefer to give a price to labour hours. Shop cannons are priced at 250-260 per LH. Players should have no hesitation in undercutting this quite considerably and, as I have said before, I reckon NPC cannons are well-priced to encourage players to make them themselves.
However it seems odd for us to be encouraged to use our valuable labour hours to make something which NPCs also make. Oh well, I guess we'll all just put player-made cannons on NPC-built ships.
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5 minutes ago, AxIslander said:
I tried to craft my resource (oak log) but i realized that is not worth!!! To buy the log at the market costs 63 gold. If i craft the log is 292 for 4 logs (292/4=73) and i lose crafting time. I think this is a bug.
I'm pretty sure it isn't, unless oak logs are being seeded in shops. That would be a bug (according to the devs).
Shop buy prices foir craftable resources have to be lower than the crafting costs else people will simply harvest oak logs and sell them to the shop to make a profit.
The devs tell us craftable resources are no longer seeded in shops, so the only way for them to get there is for players to sell them - for less than the extraction cost - presumably because they got them as loot and don't want to haul them to somewhere they can use them themselves (or sell at a higher price). The shop sell price has to be higher than the buy price, but there's no real reason for it to be higher than the crafting cost. Buy them if you want them.
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4 minutes ago, smeg said:
The point I was trying to make was the rattle was SUNK/DEAD, but rather than end the mini game, it continued, he won and capd my ship. and no my buddy didnt get the rattle kill as his crew jumped to my pickle, he got the kill when he sank the pickle.
His crew could all have been on your ship by then. It doesn't matter that their ship sunk while grappled alongside; if they defeat you in boarding then they'll just take your ship (as they did). Odd that your mate didn't get credit for both kills though. Two ships sunk should be two kills.
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29 minutes ago, smeg said:
Please explain? it's my uindestanding that this game is all about the imersion, accuracy to history and realism as the devs can get. I find it VERY hard to believe that a crew of a sunk, upside down ship could all swim over to mine, scale the side, beat off my defenders and win the boarding. If it should be a feature then please ask the devs to put in a 'abandon ship and board enamy ship' button.
Didn't you lose the boarding? Therefore the Rattlesnake's crew got your ship but lost their own. Your mate should have got reward for the Rattlsnake kill. You got nothing.
It sounds a bit more sense than when I lost being boarded on one of the last Testbed builds, but the other ship was so close to sinking it sunk during the boarding. I lost my ship, but got credited with the kill.
Now I think on it ... @admin if two players PvP, one brings the other to the point of sinking but then loses boarding, do both players get kill rewards?
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Just now, admin said:
we (maybe we are wrong) believe that the eco will stabilize once crafters realize that cannons is a great item to profit on and start making more of them.
the cost of 24lb carronade is 500 you can outfit a 50 gun ship with carronades for just 25000
If no-one will make cannons of course they will be expensive.
You're starving gold. Of course this leads to stability. Stagnation would be a better word.
I hope that as well as monitoring eco you are also keeping a close eye on what players are actually doing with their time. How much more PvP there is following the wipe. Or not, as the case may be.
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1 minute ago, ironhammer500 said:
Crafted ships need bonuses again something that a captured ship can never have and only crafted ships get like some kinda of special traits to make them worth the money and time.
What, you mean like a trim other than Crew Space
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2 minutes ago, hiclipucli said:
what about Wappen ? i dont see in craft wiki ?
Wappen doesn't have a blueprint. I cannot say whether you can get it by any other means.
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1 hour ago, victor said:
wow that's big news!
Well, let's hope at least that the Indiaman has not nerfed to death as well
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20 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:
Only one player has a shipyard but we haven't gather mats other then to make one LVG. Which by the way holds less than a Trader Brig (not much about same). So that was a suprise to us.
Indiaman is 4000 you might be relieved to hear. TBrig at 1750 is the next biggest. LGV 1335, TSnow a measly 900. TLynx and TCutter both 500 if you can get them.
Or you could haul with a l'Ocean 1251.
All without guns, of course.
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3 minutes ago, Lady Athena said:
I'm confused.. are you really argueing that tearing down buildings and reubilding them when you need the resources is cheaper? I hardly think so. 10k a building.. + the gold needed to extract the goods does not = less than just buying it from a player.
Yes. that's exactly what I'm saying. Sure, if I knew someone willing to sell lignum for 80 and stone for 25 I'd get them to harvest everything for me and save myself the ever-so-valuable labour hours, but I don't happen to know anyone so generous. But I'll get at least 500 lignum (4 days output) or 1000 stone (2 days output) out of my buildings - both enough to keep me going for at least a couple of weeks - which adds 20 and 10 respectively onto the price. Of course, stone for 30 rather than 20 is one hell of a markup, but it's a tiny cost in the scheme of things, and next time I need a stone mine I'll maybe get 5000 out of it, so they'll cost 22.
21 minutes ago, Lady Athena said:INor is sailing around for 8 hours building and tearing down buildings and pumping another 20-50k for ports, or whatever to build your buildings in the first place a good use of your gold either. If you're trying to argue that being an independent crafter is possible, or should be possible.. I have to greatly disagree with you, as no game where a crafter can be 100% independent ever works out well. Despite the fact 90% of MMO's do this, it's not the best way to do it. Every MMO or multiplayer game that has had it where no crafter can be independent has always had the best economy, best player base, and the most fun and rewarding crafting.
Outposts are a start up cost. Pay once only. Terribly punishing I agree and probably not the best way for a new player to start out, but I only needed 4 outposts on Testbed to make ships and guns (and sell them for profit, I might add) so it's manageable if you pick your ports wisely. Surely you have to haul your stone and lignum whether you harvest them or someone else does, or does your friendly trader deliver as well as harvest, and all for 5 gold a piece? Gosh!
I will readily agree with your 'no game where a crafter can be 100% independent ever works out well'. That the NA economy allows me to solo with practically no punishment demonstrates how poor it is compared with other games. The punishment is that I can only run two level 3 buildings (less LH for harvesting). It's not much of one, is it?
To be fair, ships are now a poor option for players to start out crafting, and only really worth considering because you'll get CXP and so increase your LH storage. I'd probably pick one or two of the repairs myself (hull repairs will combine with either rum or rig repairs for buildings), but profits don't look too great at the moment. Guns are probably a better bet but that 150k together with the stone is rather a hurdle. Start up costs again.
32 minutes ago, Lady Athena said:Also want to say, I don't think anyone's suggesting, or arguing, or is even stupid enough to think you have to spend 100k and pull out 1000 logs or iron every day. You pull out what you need, nothing more.
It's what I'm reading on chat. But I'm sure they'll learn quickly enough.
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18 hours ago, Lady Athena said:
PIckle:
Final resources:
184x Oak Log = 13,432
76x Fir Log = 4,560
57x Hemp = 3,420
20x lignum vitae logs <Buy at 80 per 1> = 1,600
48x stone blocks = <Buy at 25 per 1> = 1,200
60x Iron Ore = 4,800100x fish meat <Buying at 42> = 4,200
8x salt <Buying at 40> = 320
Final cost= 33,532<If you ignore fish meat and salt since those are easy to come by>
Final cost= 29,012
The costs are what it costs me to pull out of my buildings, naturally a crafter is most likely going to build the buildings that he needs the most of to save money. The "Buying at" price is me adding 5g to whatever it'll cost a person to pull out of their economy building to sell to me. costs a person 75-70 gold per lignum viteae log to pull from their building as an example so I'll buy it at 80.
I agree with what you are saying, and the costs for someone starting out crafting are huge compared to sources of income. Crafters are nothing special in this respect - everyone is short of money - but our start up costs are higher than others.
But you are overstating the difficulty of crafting once you have set up your outposts and buildings and got some stock, small stocks, of materials. In your Pickle, for example, I reckon you need 21.25 iron ore; I could be mistaken since the best data I have to hand is Testbed Hotifix 11 which doesn't quite match the current game (but is after the coal to charcoal change), but I had a quick check on Live and I didn't spot any differences affecting the Pickle. Now, clearly to make your first Pickle you cannot harvest 21.25 iron ore and then make the ingots, fittings, barrels, rudder thingies, etc, and I guess the 60 you mention is what you need for the first one. But for the second, you'll have spare iron ingots, spare rudder parts, spare barrels, so you won't need so much, and your second ship will cost a lot less. I reckon an Oak/Oak Pickle costs just over 19k in harvesting resources.
It's not just money. The Pickle and all its constituent parts takes 628 LH - about 15 real life hours without perks. But to harvest all the materials takes less than 12 level 1 resource building hours. You can see it from the numbers you post, even though you list start up rather than ongoing quantities. 184 oak logs take 5 hours; 76 fir is just over 2 hours. 3 hours 25 minutes for hemp and so on. With a shipyard and a workshop you have 3 resource building slots to play with, easily enough to make all the resources you need by rotating buildings every .... well after my initial rotation on Testbed hotfix 7 I didn't swap a building out till the next wipe, which I think was well over a week. In a short while you'll maybe swap one building over once a month when you need more stone, lignum or fir. So no need to rely on other people or buy goods from the marketplace (and don't complain if resources can be bought cheaper than you can make them - just buy them and save yourself the LH).
I reckon this unexpected overabundance of harvestable resources has caught a lot of people out. They've seen they need to give up two slots for a shipyard and workshop, seen that resources aren't seeded in shops any more and have panicked, built iron mines, oak forests and fir forests and are desperately trying to find the money to harvest nearly 1000 of each resource every day. But you don't need to. Scrape together some money by all means but use it to tear down that fir forest when you've extracted a few hundred logs and build a stone mine or lignum forest - it is cheaper to put up a new building than it is to harvest 200 fir logs you don't really need .
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3 hours ago, Yar Matey said:
First, can we PLEASE stop with the eye rolling "everyone is going to quit" and "this is going to fail hard" hyperbole! It is way too early to tell how the economy will function in this game. I dont care if you have 300 hours or 10k hours in this game as a level 50 crafter!
All the devs need to do to fix this current market problem is increase rewards for missions as well as make captured NPC ships give you gold and have more valuable cargo. I dont know about pvp rewards yet, but increase those as well by the same amount, if need be, and increase the price of store bought ships at the same rate until it is more expensive to buy a ship in port than it is to craft a ship.
Adjust rewards, adjust store bought ships, leave everything else as is for now.
How curious. We both want greater gold rewards, but it never occurred to me that missions was where it needs to be added
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Like most people posting here I agree there is a fundamental imbalance between income and costs, but the devs have just wiped the servers, are desperate not to flood them with gold again and need to be given a chance to analyse the data.
In the meantime we will all mostly be sailing ships bought from NPCs because
- they are just as cheap or cheaper than player-made
- setting up to craft ships is expensive
- players do not have enough labour hours to make ships in sufficient quantities
and doubtless other reasons which have slipped my mind.
Perhaps the devs want to see whether players will shift from crafting ships to crafting guns, by pricing NPC-made guns at almost 3 times the cost of player-made. An interesting little experiment, perhaps.
For those complaining about the cost of harvesting resources, think before you click. Buildings - even level 1 buildings* - produce far more resources than you have LH to use. Of course if you're still rotating buildings to get all the resources needed to make a ship then you'll want to harvest all the lignum before turning the slot over to stone, for example, but there's no need to click out every last iron ore (you should have left iron till last - it is the one building you probably won't rotate).
Hang on in there, fellow crafters. Once you've ground your start up capital you won't need to do it again, and then you'll find it far easier being a crafter than a PvPer, for we'll start turning a profit while they will have to grind for every single ship they sink (unless they're in the top 10% who can make a profit through PvP). Quite why the devs have got such a thing against PvP I really have no idea.
*unless you specialise in rig repairs, where you'll probably want at least one level 2 hemp mine
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23 minutes ago, ironhammer500 said:
I mean increase supply of goods to make ships so they get consumed, so players will trade those goods not the ones that dont effect ship building or production, atm people cba to build ships or do production because trade goods are better money, even with lots of weight now.
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
We're not really shipbuilding yet, but I suspect there may be value in hauling teak. Possibly cedar (but players who understand ships stats better than me seem to reckon it's lost its edge), And, of course, there may be a market for hauling coal. If you can deliver coal to whatever the iron port is in Jamaica (I forget which) you could probably charge several times its base cost.
Whether you could sell enough to make it viable I'm not sure. The stranglehold on labour hours means crafters simply cannot consume that much in resources.
Seeded woods quantities I'll reserve judgement on till we can see how they pan out.
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Several people have mentioned 'could be re-cast' as if it is a virtue. What it really means is the bore wears far quicker than an iron cannon.
I might be being a little unfair here. Bronze cannons are cheaper to cast then iron ones (the casting process, not including the material), so you might get a bronze cannon re-cast when you wouldn't think of replacing a similarly-worn iron cannon.
Iron cannons can be re-cast as well, but there's no point. The material is so cheap, you may as well sell the old cannon for scrap (where doubtless it will be re-made into something else) and buy a new cannon rather then go to the trouble of taking a few tons of iron to the ironworks yourself.
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3 minutes ago, Wynkyn de Worde said:
I don't know why I bothered to come back to try this game. Do the developers actually appreciate the amount of time we devote to working out how things work by trial and error only to have the details arbitrarily changed. Hundreds of hours of my time spent creating spread sheets for trading and calculating ship loading are now useless due to changes in ship capacity and weights of goods. All that effort of mine wasted. I think this just shows the comtempt the developers have for the players. They just don't care about wasting our time and effort. This game is no longer uplifting, it has become soul destroying because of the stupid arbitrary changes made by the devs that simply wipe out hundreds of hours of effort by the players. I really really hate what this game has become now and the stupid grind that devs have imposed on us and the fact that whenever we work out some little part of the game, they change it and make that hard won knowledge useless. Stick your game.
Yes, I downloaded the Item templates json file last night and spent a little while this morning extracting the item weights, meaning to post them and a whole host of other econ data tonight. so that's time wasted, sure, but it's a game in development so I expect things to change. I'll parse the new file tonight and maybe post on Sunday instead.
But hundreds of hours creating spreadsheets? I don't think it's that sort of game, to be honest.
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2 minutes ago, ironhammer500 said:
Why not increase trade supply? That is the problem with the game, lower prices alot.
The devs are desperate not to flood the freshly wiped servers with gold.
While I disagree with their approach, it is pretty easy to see where they are coming from. They'll maybe increase weights again when players start sailing fleets of LGVs like we did on Testbed.
To my mind, all this could be avoided by moderate increases in combat gold rewards and maybe a moderate reduction in start-up gold costs. I cannot think more than a few players actually want to haul trade goods, and although we provide PvP targets we are poor fare. However, the game is in early access so I'll not complain; the devs need to try out different methods.
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5 minutes ago, Captain corn blower said:
How do you capture ship after battle or take charge of , I have lost more ship and cargo after battle the I'd like to say not seen any prompt or widow open after boarding battle but exit battle??
PvP servers you cannot capture NPC ships (unless in a player fleet).
To capture (where you are able) and take cargo, you now need to be close to the ship, be less than 2.5 knots (which you will be after boarding of course, but can be a problem if you didn't board), look at it and press x.
You can claim cargo for a short time (too short, imo) after the ship is killed.
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23 minutes ago, FieryCross said:
Oh and if we are going for historical accuracy, at the beginning of the 18th Centuary iron works began converting coal to coke, so a bit late historically in game using charcoal.
In Britain, certainly. we'd chopped down all our trees. But smelting iron with charcoal is a simpler process and doubtless continued being used where wood was plentiful.
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10 minutes ago, Anolytic said:
I've had some issues/bugs with looting ships in battle instances.
First off I discovered that the weight of oak logs in the hold is different from what the splitting tool calculates. So when I tried to split a stack of ~149 weight to fit in the 150 weight hold of my basic cutter I ended up with 163 weight even though the splitting tool said the weight was 148. This confused me a lot, but I tried to still work it out by splitting off a few more logs from my stacks.
Then I discovered the next bug. It was impossible to split off individual oak logs. If I chose a stack of everything but 1 log, the minimum stack I could get out of it seemed to be 2 logs.Scratch this part. I just watched my own video and realized my mistake.At this point I said f it and put everything in my hold, pressed exit and then left the battle. To my slight surprise this caused no issues. I was able to leave with my hold 120% full, enter OW and sail into my capital port to leave the prized loot.
Later I looted another AI trader and got some really heavy goods. I was able to stack about 300 weight worth of loot, between 2 or 3 different types of resources, into my hold and sail back to my warehouse with all of it. My basic cutter must have been stacked full of goods both under deck and on deck. How it didn't sink under the immense weight I do not know. All is well that ends well.
Still, I'm asking if this is intentional or not. Are we supposed to be able to loot Indiamans with a basic cutter and sail all the goods back to port?
I have a short video of my observations:
Did your basic cutter have guns? They weigh about 14 - the difference you mention.
You can overload ships in battle. I haven't worked out what the limit is, but if you are allowed to overload it seems you are always able to load the entire stack. You can sometimes load an additional stack of something else if you are overloaded, but eventually you won't be able to add anything.
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20 minutes ago, Hodo said:
I agree..
Some minor things I want to help you with...
No I in concerned.
And the phrase I believe you are looking for is "Not by a long shot"
Not trying to troll just trying to help.
I'll take the spelling correction, but you'd better concede my long chalk else there'll be blood
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4 minutes ago, Hodo said:
So a minimum of 10 coal PER Belle, which is a small 5th rate.
Yes, but on Testbed I was getting enough gold and silver for furnishings from iron, coal and stone mines, harvesting in 18, 30 and 52 respectively (seems best but I haven't worked out the algorithm). Without coal, we'll get less gold and silver, which coincerned me, but we'll certainly get enough coal to smelt whatever gold and silver we do get. But not enough to make long guns, not by a long chalk.
Hotfix 3 for patch 10.00
in Patch notes
Posted
You kept quiet on the reduced harvesting costs though, didn't you?
Check out the iron ore and coal BPs.