Brigand
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Posts posted by Brigand
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A quick reminder about the requirements for ship nomination posts:
- 1 ship per post
- only submit ships for which building plans are available
- any additional views (models, paintings, photographs?, etc) are a definite plus.
Other than that:
if you have any other ships you would like to nominate, now is the time! Because my guess is that the Player ship selection 1st Half 2016 nomination round is going to close sooner rather than later. The next step will be the first round of voting.
~Brigand
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There may be hope for those who want navigation using the stars included. Some time ago, admin asked about Caribbean stars and how sailors would use them for navigation.
~Brigand
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A Dutch East Indiaman off the coast of Hoorn
That looks like a mightily heavily armed ship. I guess either lots of artistic freedom or not an Indiaman?
Nice painting anyhow.
~Brigand
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What I mean to say is that the game has been set at a timeline of 1690-1790 preferred. Having 4-masted ships sail around would hurt that image. As I mentioned, other than visual spice, the exotic designs add nothing game-play wise, while at deluding the image of the era 1690 - 1790.
~Brigand
And yet I've seen no such thing said by the admins, only by the moderators, what gives? (...)
We moderators only echo information given by admin; the best information we have on the time frame is:
We definitely stop at 1820 mark yes. +-5 years.
Initial model line up range from 1680 till 1820.
Going earlier than that might make line battles look strange (with old galleons alongside modern 2nd rates)
In the Player selected ship 2015 - Suggestions-thread, @admin mentioned: 1600-1830 hard limit, 1690-1790 preferred. Where many feel that 1830 is stretching it.
Ships currently confirmed to be in the game range from 1715 (Ингерманланд/Ingermanland) to 1820 (Меркурий/Mercury).
Hope this helps,
~Brigand
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Didn't realize this would cause an uproar, the main ship that I wanted was the four masted ship we've been referencing (L'Invention), the others such as the galleon were more so to show that ships like that did exist and weren't uncommon. I assumed the time period to be between mid 1700s to early 1800s due to Trafalgar being in 1805, This ship specifically I wanted to bring attention to was commissioned in 1799 and launched in 1801, its the early development of the next generation of ships. Something that would be interesting and add a bit to the era, not take away from it.
I'm sorry for the uproar, it was me who hijacked your topic.
There is no point in denying the fact that those early developments, of the next generation of ships, sailed around at the closing of the 18th century, they existed and were build. However, at the same time, they were the exeption rather than the norm. A game like Naval Action tries to portray the era as it was. But since it is not possible to add each and every ship that ever existed to a game, the selection of ships for the game needs to be a good representation of what was a common sight. Since experimental, ahead of its time designs were exceptional for their time and because it is a waste of development budget to create a ship and then artificially limit the number of copies you allow to be in the game* because of their historical rarity, I think the game's development budget could better be spend at creating other interesting ships which were more typical of the time period.
*) The one thing I could see designs like this shine, is as unique ships handed out as a 'gold medal' rewards for the winner of some future live event. But for now, I haven't heard of any ideas for events like this from Game Labs. Who knows, maybe in the future?
anyhow, I'll let this thread turn back to its original topic and refrain from posting offtopic here again :-)
Cheers,
Brigand
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What I mean to say is that the game has been set at a timeline of 1690-1790 preferred. Having 4-masted ships sail around would hurt that image. As I mentioned, other than visual spice, the exotic designs add nothing game-play wise, while at deluding the image of the era 1690 - 1790.
~Brigand
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introducing 4-masted ships would put us on the slippery slope with regard to the 'tech-tree'. The wish to populate the line up of available units with special, unique, exotic and/or ahead-of-its-time designs does not do the era justice. In fact, it makes the image painted of the era chosen weaker: a pale image of what it was like in reality. It is a slippery slope, because once you introduce one of those strangers, it opens the door for other exotic design to be introduced. There are quite some games out there that fell into this trap (not uncommonly because of the need for 'premium' content). Upon introduction of the new units people are exited, a month later people realise the game is losing its appeal.
The most immersive games are the ones that stay true to their choices. Introducing one of a kind designs into a game where everybody can than sail them (having only one sinlge ship of a certain type sailing around per sever is a huge waste of development budget) makes the one of a kind designs the common sight. This hurts authenticity. What is more: nothing is gained -other than visual diversity- by introducing these experimental designs: we can still have a wide range of available variations in sailing capacity without them.
As such, I would propose to leave those unique, ahead of their time, designs be. Let's instead focus on getting those common designs which are still lacking (for example the lugger, a vessel most famous for smuggling) and see if those can make it into the game.
Cheers,
Brigand
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Do you happen to know which plate of the ANM they used for the generic Indiaman?
Nope, sorry.
~Brigand
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It might be the lack of my knowledge, but inst she a true 42 gunner?
She was pierced for 21 guns aside, besides the swivels.
She was made to look like a 42 gun ship, yes. In reality, most gun ports were mere ventilation holes ('windows') which did not have room behind them to accommodate a gun.
Researching the Amsterdam is somewhat difficult because there is a 'replica' floating around (literally) which was build to be A 'visitor friendly' B match 'visitor expectations'.
However, the indiaman named Amsterdam in Naval Action is actually not the Amsterdam at all (not the original, nor the 'replica') but the Chapman generic indiamen instead.
~Brigand
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Yes, that should do nicelyDutch 40-gun Eastindiamen is coming, that good enough?
Brb buying port near dutch capital
The Dutch indiaman Amsterdam is indeed listed as 42 guns. However, this number gives a false impression. The actual armament is: 42 8 x 12pdr, 16 x 8pdr, 8 x 4pdr, 10 swivel guns. So maybe calling her a 24 gun indiaman would give a better impression of her capabilities.
Cheers,
Brigand
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Hi (yes, I'm still lurking around
and I couldn't resist adding the same suggestion once again),
I would like this game to include a large choice in smaller ships, the true workhorses of the seas. We need some vessels closing the gap between the 12-gun Pickle and the 18-gun Brig, not just in terms of number of guns, but also in terms of design and type of rig.
More specifically, I would(still) love to see a nice brigantine; typically a bit smaller than a brig, but larger than a schooner. Brigantines where known for their versatility and good sailing characteristics, being able to sail very close to the wind (almost as close as a schooner).
So, my nomination for the Player ship selection 1st Half 2016 listing (some of you will remember this one) is:
The brigantine Vilaine (1740)
(figure 1: schematic view)
(figure 2: draught)
This brigantine was build as a packet boat in Lorient (France) and later converted to serve as a privateer (possibly in the same year). As a privateer she was armed with twelve French 6-pounders cannons and two Perriers à boîte (long barrelled, breach loading swivel guns). She was captured by the English and later sold to Sweden (1947?). I believe the main topsail as show in the schematics is the Swedish rather than the French preference (I like the looks of the square sale better); the French seem to have instead typically rigged their brigantines with a lug sail on the the main top.
(figure 3: detailed side view)
The schematic views shown here are drawn by me. I've been researching this particular vessel for quite some time now and I've slowly been working my way to a complete set of building plans. The sources are many, but I believe it is accurate for the period. The main sources for the hull lines are the droughts for several brigantines commissioned about the same time as the Vilaine (Dauphin, Lys and Marie Madeleine) on the west coast of France. The hull lines of those vessels match near enough.
The finer details on the sail plan, including mast and sail dimensions, running rigging is mostly from ship models in musea, that survive from those days. I've cross referenced those with the rougher details on paintings and schematics drawings in books. The image I've posted here shows (nearly) all the rigging used on a brigantine; more detailed rigging schematics (pdf).
Cheers,
Brigand
P.S.
Yes, I will update the table in List of ships and other vessels in the game, I'll try to create some time to work the new info into it.-
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the 32-36 gun is the Essex wich was allready on the list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucentaure-class_ship_of_the_line
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Pickle_(1800)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_R%C3%A9publicaine_fran%C3%A7aise_(1794) Renomme
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_Belle_Poule_(1765)
cherubin is partly based on HMS diana
Thanks.
I've updated the list and incorporated the data from the links listed, except for French frigate Républicaine française (1794), because I thought the ship in the game was La Renommée (1744)?
Cheers,
Brigand
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the 32-36 gun is the Essex wich was allready on the list
Updated, thanks!
~Brigand
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I've got a spare minute, so I just thought I'd write this list of updates for the OP, in hopes of helping Brigand when he gets around to editing it:
-The Cutter, Lynx, two Brigs, and the Snow are in-game, so their names don't need to be faded out anymore.
-Also added to the game are the Pickle, Mercury, La Belle Poule, La Renommee, and St. Paul/Pavel.
-A ship not in the OP, the Frigate (aka Cherubim), has been added to the game.
-Bucentaure, a xebec, USS Niagara, and and a "32-36 gun frigate" have been shown to be in development.
Thank you so much!
I'm extremely short on time (and I hardly have access to the internet) at the moment, so this information is most helpful. I'm certainly still trying to stay connected to the forums, but too much is posted every day for me to keep up with. I do try to keep especially this topic up to date, but I think that by now, it shows that I'm not succeeding very well.
I've added the updated the list based on the information you guys posted in this topic. The newly added ships could do with some more details. If you guys could add the missing information (and any other errors) into this topic, I will update the image next time I come across a spot with public wifi.
Cheers and thanks for keeping the topic alive,
Brigand
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List updated. Thanks!You can add the Saint Paul to the list, presented in the WIP by Mirones: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/987-work-in-progress/page-8
~Brigand
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That's a beautiful old lady!
However, her launch date puts her outside the hard limit of the time frame for Naval Action.
The best information we have on the time frame is:
We definitely stop at 1820 mark yes. +-5 years.
Initial model line up range from 1680 till 1820.
Going earlier than that might make line battles look strange (with old galleons alongside modern 2nd rates)In the Player selected ship 2015 - Suggestions-thread, @admin mentioned: 1600-1830 hard limit, 1690-1790 preferred. Where many feel that 1830 is stretching it.
Ships currently confirmed to be in the game range from 1715 (Ингерманланд/Ingermanland) to 1820 (Меркурий/Mercury).
Hope this helps,
~Brigand -
Russian 1st rate
Name: 12 apostles
"Devenstadt Apostolov - The Twelve Apostles" Russian Imperial Ship of the line
The "Twelve Apostles" was a 120-gun 3 decked ship of the line built by the Russian shipwright Captain S. I. Chernyakovsky.
It was launched on the 15th July 1841 and became part of Russia's Black Sea Fleet. (...)
Her launch date puts her outside the hard limit of the time frame for Naval Action.
The best information we have on the time frame is:
We definitely stop at 1820 mark yes. +-5 years.
Initial model line up range from 1680 till 1820.
Going earlier than that might make line battles look strange (with old galleons alongside modern 2nd rates)
In the Player selected ship 2015 - Suggestions-thread, @admin mentioned: 1600-1830 hard limit, 1690-1790 preferred. Where many feel that 1830 is stretching it.
Ships currently confirmed to be in the game range from 1715 (Ингерманланд/Ingermanland) to 1820 (Меркурий/Mercury).
Hope this helps,
~Brigand
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We should just call the Privateer 'Lynx, Privateer Version'
updated
Weight:
Ton= 920.16 Kg
20 Quintal= 1 Ton
2000 Pounds= 1 Ton
32000 Once= 1 Ton
Hence: 1 Pound= 460 gr
For artillery, any calculation, from any units system will give wrong results if the standard iron density(7850 Kg/m³) is applied to cannon balls volume.
Hmm, so for naval artillery I should not use the 1 pound = 460 gr ?
I'm looking for the Spanish pound as used for the weight of a cannonball. So, for example, a Spanish 18 pounder cannonball would nominally weight ?? grams.
~Brigand
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The relation between LWL and speed does not depend on the propulsion system. Hence, it doesn´t on the angle of the wind.
The effect of the wind direction, has more to do with the sails, and the hull design, than with the size.
Anyway, between two ships, with similar designs and rigging, sailing the same wind, the longer will be always faster.
It does not mean that all long ships have to be faster than all shorter ones. Other design considerations have to be taken into account. But as a general rule, it works.
There is a topic (IRL: big ships go faster than little ships!) dedicated to this rule. It doesn't really seem hold all that well for ships in the time period the game is set in: the theoretic maximum hull speed was seldom (if ever) achieved by the larger ships (due to various reasons).
~Brigand
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@Surcouf, are you converting from French feet into Imperial feet/inches? or do your sources give metric dimensions?
~Brigand
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While similar to the flag shown above, I would love to see the bloedvlag in the game. It was originally used by the Dutch against the Spanish in the eighty-years war and can be seen in painting of Dutch ships throughout the time period represented. Also, even though it was used to fight Barbary pirates, it soon was also flown by pirates.
Bloedvlag:
It may be nice to note that 'bloedvlag' mean 'blood ensign'. In its earliest form it was a plain, blood red flag. It was hoisted to signal 'engage the enemy in full'.
~Brigand
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I agree with @maturin, we are in dire need of more small vessels. At the same time, I don't really think a Xebec or a Venetian polacca would really fit in the Caribbean. So maybe we should leave those for when the open world expands to include the Mediterranean?
I'm also in favour of seeing some luggers included into the game. Although I'm not sure how popular they where in the West Indies, they sure where a very popular craft in Northern Europe, especially around the channel and not infrequently employed as the smuggling craft of choice.
What we could have in the Caribbean, is a nice brigantine. Brigantine were the second most popular type of vessel built in the American colonies before 1775 (source), so it definitely fits the setting:
(She was, at one time in a distant past, even named by admin, to be included into the game)
For example (shameless plug):
A brigantine packet of 130 tons burthen.
~Brigand-
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I wouldn't mind seeing the mystery snow being raised, preserved and then rebuild as an accurate replica.
edit:
The actual wreck, as she lays on the bottom of the Baltic Sea.
~Brigand
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Naval Action: Ship Sizes and Dimensions
in Shipyard
Posted
Interesting, which formula did you use (different countries used different systems of measurement which, conveniently enough, changed during the ages).
~Brigand