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Wagram

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Everything posted by Wagram

  1. "L'uniforme de gala a varié au cours des siècles12. Actuellement, il est de couleur rouge, jaune et bleu (le bleu et le jaune sont les couleurs de la famille Della Rovere à laquelle appartenait Jules II, le rouge a été ajouté par son successeur Léon X, un Médicis), n'a pas été dessiné par Michel-Ange pendant la Renaissance comme le veut une légende tenace, mais est l'œuvre de Jules Repond (1853 - 1933), commandant de la garde de 1910 à 1921, qui s'inspira en 1914 des fresques de Raphaël13." https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_suisse_pontificale#Uniforme Chacun à son goût. Moi, je suis historien...
  2. La progéniture et les re-enactors - les ridicules du jour
  3. The Elba flag? Arrgh! This is how the sanctified Emperor of the French used to celebrate his birthday (in 1813, five days earlier, 10th August, for military reasons...) C'est ainsi que l'empereur sanctifié des Français avait l'habitude de célébrer son anniversaire (en 1813, cinq jours plus tôt, le 10 août, pour des raisons militaires ...)
  4. Fluffy Fishy brought up more on this topic earlier: https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/25755-an-18th-century-machine-gun/
  5. Et pourtant... non? Peut-être, nous avons un dialogue de sourds? A vrai dire, je ne comprends pas tout à fait ce que tu veux me dire. Mais, sans doute, c'est ma faute. Je ne suis pas le "native speaker".
  6. Ah non Monsieur, ça ne va pas se passer comme ça! Il ne faut pas comparer des pommes avec des oranges! Si, au 17e ou au 18e siècle, on baptise un vaisseau "La Frégate", c'est gaga (ou, à la fin du 18e siècle, un chebec "Galeotta", c'est ... corse ). Si on appelle dans la deuxième moitié du 17e siècle une barque longue "La Corvette", c'est autre chose: "Jusqu'en 1746, cette catégorie de navire est associée à celle de barque longue. C'est d'abord un petit trois mâts, qui n’est jamais armé de plus de vingt canons en batterie, qui sert à effectuer des missions de découverte1. Il sert aussi de liaison pour transmettre des ordres ou des courriers2. De nombreuses corvettes serviront par la suite au transport marchand. Sa taille au fil des siècles augmente au point que les corvettes de l'ère révolutionnaire valent les frégates légères, de 6 et de 8, du siècle précédent..." https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_(navire)#Corvette_historique (Je ne suis même pas sûr si "La Corvette" était vraiment le nom de cette barque longue - ou plutôt une désignation alternative...mais, peut-être, oui, tu le sais mieux...)
  7. For those who wonder what they see here next to l'Hermione ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Boyard_(fortification)
  8. I missed the most important entry on gw.geneanet.org about Henry Jean (Jehan) François de Gueydon and his father which clarifies a lot: https://gw.geneanet.org/skrebs1?lang=en&pz=serge&nz=krebs&ocz=0&p=henri+jehan+francois&n=de+gueydon So, it seems that Henry Rodolphe de Gueydon had not recognized officially his marriage and son for more than twenty years. It was only on 29 Mai 1799 (10 Prairial An VII) he legitimized both marriage and son. Moreover, the report from 17 August 1797 (30 Thermidor An V) appears to indicate that the father, though being a staunch royalist and catholic (see here: https://books.google.ch/books?id=De5TtT-JtXsC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=Henri+Rodolphe+de+Gueydon+"Essai+sur+l'opinion,+considérée+comme+une+des+principales+causes+de+la+Révolution+de+1789"&source=bl&ots=pqKSev-6h2&sig=ACfU3U2w5b3QjmBRABph1IJoF346f5kx0Q&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJk6vL0dDjAhXEQUEAHbguA1oQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=Henri Rodolphe de Gueydon "Essai sur l'opinion%2C considérée comme une des principales causes de la Révolution de 1789"&f=false and here: https://books.google.ch/books?id=565cAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=gueydon+"Arreté+des+Patriotes+du+Club+du+Café+national+de+Bordeaux"&source=bl&ots=tZRxOecefe&sig=ACfU3U2qYz7d_0ZK20oqvdL2QbP4nSTEzw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1hvi20tDjAhUSO8AKHXExATEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=gueydon "Arreté des Patriotes du Club du Café national de Bordeaux"&f=false , p. 3f.) had never emigrated to England and it also reveals that it must have been the son who was taken prisoner and deported to England: "...qu’elle reconnait pour son fils le dit Henry Jean François, lequel est classé en ce port sous le nom de Jean François Henry, a fait deux voyages dans l’Inde, a servi en qualité de commis aux vivres sur l’Anonime, s’est embarqué dernièrement à Nantes sur le Corsaire l’Aimable Manette qui a été pris et conduit en Angleterre, ..." As for the ships, see Alain Demerliac, Nomenclature des navires français de 1792 à 1799, Nice 1999. p. 258, N°.2240: "1797/1798 ANONYME: Brick corsaire de Nantes armé en 12-1797...En 3-1798 il rentra à La Rochelle." p. 316, N°.2998: "1797/1797 AIMABLE NANETTE ou AIMABLE MANETTE Brick corsaire d'un port d'attache non connu [Nantes, to judge from our document] armé en 1797...1-5-1797: Capturé par les Anglais, par HMS SPITFIRE..." (Note: As Anonyme was armed only in December 1797 but Aimable Manette had been captured in May 1797 already, Henry Jean must have served on board Anonyme long before she had been "armed", and then embarked on Aimable Manette - sometime before 1 May 1797. The question is, when was Anonyme built? Or was there another Anonyme at the time? Demerliac, p. 106, N°.668, mentions a "lougre" also called Anonyme but that ship had foundered in June 1795 and was broken up in August 1795 already. Vichot, Répertoire des navires de guerre français, Paris, 1967. p.12, mentions still another Anonyme, built in 1795, and called a "transport", no further information ...?) So, it looks as if it was the son indeed who had painted the two pictures. If he actually was at Mill Prison in 1798, he may still have been there when his father married his mother officially and recognized him as his son (in 1799). Just a guess: Henry Jean may have been released and returned home after the Peace of Amiens in 1802 and painted the pictures thereafter (sometime between 1802 and his death in 1836).
  9. An apparently not very well known contemporary portrait of this ship is kept in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts: https://collections.mfa.org/objects/32448/sovereign-of-the-seas?ctx=556e234d-fe34-44f4-a732-16e9958db243&idx=0 The other portraits, by Van de Velde and Payne, are rather well known, of course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sovereign_of_the_Seas#/media/File:Morgan-Drawing.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sovereign_of_the_Seas#/media/File:Sovereign_of_the_Seas.jpg
  10. Excellent guess ... especially as the legend says "La Sybille" ... Apparently, there is a contemporary French portrait of L'Égyptienne (specifications regarding armament as given by Wikipedia seem to differ from Boudriot's), attributed to "Jean-Jacques Baugean". But who is Jean-Jacques Baugean? I only know of Jean-Jérôme Baugean, and from him of nothing from before the 1er Premier Empire and the Restauration era ...: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_%C3%89gyptienne_(1799)
  11. Je ne vous promettrai rien, mais peut-être que ces livres vous seront utiles: https://www.amazon.fr/Quand-voguaient-gal%C3%A8res-Collectif/dp/2737307066/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=quand+voguaient+les+galeres&qid=1561736101&s=gateway&sr=8-2 https://www.amazon.de/Age-Galley-Mediterranean-Vessels-Pre-Classical/dp/0785812687 https://www.amazon.de/Die-gro%C3%9Fe-Zeit-Galeeren-Galeassen/dp/3768801632
  12. You've been detected by the enemy ... and he has surrendered ... to the unbeatable French cuisine ... http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?page=1;md=read;id=189214
  13. Faint excuses ... all of them.
  14. Well, ok, I really tried my best. So far, I refrained from commenting on the commander's "authentic" AWI period uniform (what is he meant to represent? A capitaine de vaisseau?, in "petite uniforme"? Whatever. That cut of the coat tails ...too narrow for the period, the material used ... so cheap! The red collar (for undress uniform) missing, the cravat (stock is missing entirely, a no go for the period!), epaulettes are post Ancien Régime style, the waistcoat - what a strange cut (that horizontal section in the middle), the swordbelt high over the waistcoat, arrgh! Etc., etc. (check your Boudriot and contemporary portraits to find out what's just inacceptable here) ....Oh my! But now, with this second in command ... It's simply too much ... That's ( meant to be) the uniform of a lieutenant de vaisseau, 1er Empire, "conforme au règlement de prairial an XII"! Of course - as for the quality of this Second in command's uniform - better but, still, overall, the same as what was said on the quality of the AWI period commander's uniform ... Believe me, I know terribly well why I hate re-enactment...
  15. Unfortunately, the design and colours of Revolutionary/Napoleonic flags (pavillons, guidons, flammes) are of no help when it comes to getting an idea of the design and colours of the respective arming cloths. Arming cloths decorated with fleurs de lys may well have lasted into the Constitution (as was the case with army flags) but it's very unlikely that they survived the abolition of the monarchy (21 September 1792). BTW, the arrangement of the stripes on the 1790 tricolour differed from the 1794 version. In 1790 the hoist side stripe was red and the fly side stripe blue, while in 1794 it was (and still is today) the other way round.
  16. Thank you. Here we are: https://books.google.ru/books?id=Lx0PAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=pavoi&f=false 🙂
  17. Still looking for positive pictorial or written evidence. "Pavois" (Revolutionary period) are mentioned several times here but, unfortunately, without further description: https://books.google.ch/books?id=TsNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=pavois+marine+1830&source=bl&ots=9SCUhN1UUB&sig=ACfU3U1CNFyDB1FQxAKpyQzgKI_3__vs_w&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLvLDDz67hAhWB3OAKHeSmCZwQ6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=pavois&f=false
  18. Interesting. What's your source?
  19. I noticed. Perhaps, some cloths had yellow edges later but wrong perception on the viewer's part or soiling on the painter's part may be more likely options. I'd give the white strips the benefit of the doubt.
  20. More French ships with "pavois fleurdelisés": https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Naval_manoeuvres_toulon_1777_img_9379.jpg https://troisponts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/commerce-de-marseille-2.jpg and, again: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Vaisseau_de_guerre_fran%C3%A7ais_de_80_canons_pavois%C3%A9_en_1814.jpg
  21. Pavois https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavois_(marine) An 18th century source (p.102, s.v. pavois and pavoiser): https://books.google.ch/books?id=lKoWAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=aune+de+pavois&source=bl&ots=wOUOtSV1UN&sig=ACfU3U0On77gFQo_JTwqZbkRTeKmdEc3_g&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwix5bCKwqzhAhVLvxoKHSXmBX0Q6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=pavois&f=false
  22. Hardly a mistake, in my opinion, as it was quite the habit to paint the upper parts of the hull wall in a different/emblematic colour, and certainly not intended to fake or replace arming cloths. As far as I can see arming cloths - of both decorative and, to some extent, protective value -were mainly used to cover open railings, apparently often repeating the paint scheme of the upper walls. Lavish extra decoration of the upper wall with fleurs de lys was no longer the fashion in the later 18th century (and probably deemed too costly as well), so they usually were omitted on the ship's wall but, evidently, not (always) on the arming cloths which, after all, were moveable items, easily stowed and reusable on any vessel.
  23. Keep searching, you'll find more, e.g. here... La Ville de Paris (along quarter deck only): Le Terrible (Fleurs de lys painted over - like the flags - during the Revolution): https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b550024054/f1.item.r=le%20terrible%20vaisseau.zoom Originally, it looked like that (bad quality picture only, sorry): https://www.google.ch/search?q=le+terrible+vaisseau+110&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVw7-Yg6jhAhUHsaQKHeALDiEQsAR6BAgIEAE&biw=1178&bih=622#imgrc=I_QoNAWTzjTBZM:
  24. For clarification: The period I'm referring to is the late 18th to the early 19th centuries (in essence, the two last decades of the Ancien Régime, the Revolutionary and Napoleonic eras, the era of the Restauration in France, c. 1770 - c.1830).
  25. Are you sure? I think "doppio passo" was the same as the French "pas redoublé", or "pas accéléré", or "pas de manoeuvre", or "pas d'attaque", or "pas de charge" - the latter not to be confused with the step used when the signal "La Charge" was given (all these terms denote a pace from between 100 to 120 steps per minute; exceptionally up to 140 steps per minute for specific light infantry units such as the Légion Corse [according to a 1772 document related to this unit]). In German, this pace is called "Geschwindschritt" or "Doppelierschritt", etc. It was used on the battlefield when large formations marched against the enemy lines, but also quite often on parades, etc. The "pas de course" was a lot faster than the "pas redoublé", etc. Actually, the "pas de course" was used for storming when the signal "La Charge" was given. It was effective only on the last few meters before clashing with the enemy as it was virtually impossible to keep good order within one's own lines over a longer distance. It was also used by light infantry skirmishers. In German, this pace was called "Laufschritt" or "Sturmschritt".
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