French ship Mont-Blanc (1791) Plans?!

[Mass]

Could someone help me look for plans for this Téméraire-class ship of the line

and since this was such an iconic french vessel and i gladly would lik to see this ship in the game and ill post this image.

[Surcouf]

Le Mont Blanc is not the first name of the 74-gun ships.

This ship was built in 1789 under the name le Pyrrhus. It changed its name to le Mont Blanc in 1793 and le Républicain in 1795.

Built in Rochefort on general plans of Sané.

Written off in 1809

172 '- 44' 6 '' - 22 '

28-gun of 36-pdr

30-gun of 18-pdr

16-gun of 8-pdr

Tomorrow, I will post a photo of the original plan of the 74-gun ship of Sané. The General Plan to 1782.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Surcouf

[Grim DeGrim]

Excellent choice Mass.

[Jay Gatsby]

It looks like a giant Surprise in the picture!

[Surcouf]

The General Plan to 1782.

(sorry for the bad quality)

 

[Jean-Gaspard de Vence]

It is expected that we will have the "Trout" in Naval Action. As one of the first Jean-Gaspard de Vence ship, the privateer, what do we know about this boat? There is talk of a barge 20 guns have been reclassified in frigate of 12 guns. If you have any information about this boat. Thank you in advance and best regards JGdV

Edited March 15, 2015 by Jean-Gaspard de Vence

[Surcouf]

here is the link where we already discussed

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3647-la-fregate-la-tuite-aka-la-recherche/?hl=truite#entry74431

[Wagram]

On 3/14/2015 at 11:01 PM, Surcouf said:

Le Mont Blanc is not the first name of the 74-gun ships.

This ship was built in 1789 under the name le Pyrrhus. It changed its name to le Mont Blanc in 1793 and le Républicain in 1795.

Built in Rochefort on general plans of Sané.

Written off in 1809

172 '- 44' 6 '' - 22 '

28-gun of 36-pdr

30-gun of 18-pdr

16-gun of 8-pdr

Tomorrow, I will post a photo of the original plan of the 74-gun ship of Sané. The General Plan to 1782.

Do you know on which basis this 74-gun ship painted by Antoine Roux was identified as the "Mont-Blanc" and by whom? I tried to read the name of the ship on the stern but failed. The first time I have seen the name of "Mont-Blanc" attributed to this ship was in Christie's Maritime Art catalogue of Wednesday 29 October 2008, without proper reference. They just pointed out that the painting was published in a German exhibition catalogue of 2002, but there the name of the ship remains unmentioned. Actually, the painting was just signed and and dated "Ant[oin]e Roux a Marseille 1803 = 45 -".

BTW, isn't that a chef de division's pennant on top of the main mast?

As for the fate of the Mont Blanc. According to Demerliac and Lyon, it was captured in 1805 by the British. It was incorporated into the Royal Navy but never fitted for sea, hulked in 1811, and sold to be broken up in 1819.

[LeBoiteux]

7 hours ago, Wagram said:

Do you know on which basis this 74-gun ship painted by Antoine Roux was identified as the "Mont-Blanc" and by whom? I tried to read the name of the ship on the stern but failed. The first time I have seen the name of "Mont-Blanc" attributed to this ship was in Christie's Maritime Art catalogue of Wednesday 29 October 2008, without proper reference. They just pointed out that the painting was published in a German exhibition catalogue of 2002, but there the name of the ship remains unmentioned. Actually, the painting was just signed and and dated "Ant[oin]e Roux a Marseille 1803 = 45 -".

My bet :

1) The whole panting is :

2) Christie's calls it 'The French '74' Mont Blanc and other vessels off Marseille"

3) In the right third of the painting, the tower may represent a part of the Fort Saint-Jean (la tour du fanal, also here) at the entrance of the Vieux-Port of Marseille. And the two vessels on the right side may sail to and from the Vieux-Port.

4) In Roux' archives (bill of sales, letters...) or wherever, a painting representing "The French 74 Mont Blanc and other vessels off Marseille" made in 1803 by Roux may be mentioned, meaning he may be known to have painted this subject.

5) The main ship looks like a ship of the class of the 74-gun Mont-Blanc (?)

6) Roux' manner and style (?)

7) Roux' signature and date

Edited October 29, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[Wagram]

7 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

My bet :

1) The whole panting is :

2) Christie's calls it 'The French '74' Mont Blanc and other vessels off Marseille"

3) In the right third of the painting, the tower may represent a part of the Fort Saint-Jean (la tour du fanal, also here) at the entrance of the Vieux-Port of Marseille. And the two vessels on the right side may sail to and from the Vieux-Port.

4) In Roux' archives (bill of sales, letters...) or wherever, a painting representing "The French 74 Mont Blanc and other vessels off Marseille" made in 1803 by Roux may be mentioned, meaning he may be known to have painted this subject.

5) The main ship looks like a ship of the class of the 74-gun Mont-Blanc (?)

6) Roux' manner and style (?)

7) Roux' signature and date

Thank you but that's not the evidence I'm looking for. 

1) I've known the complete painting before.

2) Unfortunately, that proves nothing. This seems to be the title Christie's have given to the painting but contrary to other of Roux' paintings this one lacks a legend describing the scene and ship(s) represented. If there was one it must have been lost long time ago as the German catalogue of 2002 doesn't mention it either.

3) The scenery is typical of several of Roux's painting. It doesn't answer the question as to which ship is represented.

4) That's an assumption of yours? If there were any documents proving the case, they would have been quoted, I assume. Apparently, there are none (or none have been found, so far).

5) There were many ships of this class (actually, the Téméraire-class) and the Mont Blanc was not the only one in the Mediterranean at the time. Another one was the Dix Août, renamed Brave in 1803 (according to Demerliac), also painted by Roux. However, the hulls of the Dix Août and of our "Mont Blanc" are painted differently, and there are more differences, so, in all probability, they are different vessels, indeed. I wonder whether the chef de division's pennant could help to reveal the identity of the ship definitely. I also wonder whether our "Mont Blanc" actually was a Téméraire class ship. In a way, it looks so unlike the Dix Août. But ok, as I remarked elsewhere, not all the ships built on the same plan look alike...

https://www.google.ch/search?q=dix+aout+74+roux&rls=ig&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz7Z7Ao6veAhVJbFAKHbgJBooQsAR6BAgFEAE&biw=1171&bih=623#imgrc=ktOLlRy0cs12PM:

(Strangely, this painting is signed and dated "Ant Roux Dix aout 1806". The name on the stern also reads "Le Dix Août". But if the ship was renamed Brave in 1803, why then is the painting dated "1806"...?)

6) Yes, of course, it's a painting by Roux, which doesn't help as the name of the ship remains unknown.

7) Same as 6). Roux' signature  and date don't help.

To sum up, the identity of this ship still has to be verified, in my opinion.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Wagram

[LeBoiteux]

Your question was :

12 hours ago, Wagram said:

Do you know on which basis this 74-gun ship painted by Antoine Roux was identified as the "Mont-Blanc"

My answer is : 

The following elements have certainly been verified by experts :

8 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

My bet :

1) The whole panting is :

2) Christie's calls it 'The French '74' Mont Blanc and other vessels off Marseille"

3) In the right third of the painting, the tower may represent a part of the Fort Saint-Jean (la tour du fanal, also here) at the entrance of the Vieux-Port of Marseille. And the two vessels on the right side may sail to and from the Vieux-Port.

4) In Roux' archives (bill of sales, letters...) or wherever, a painting representing "The French 74 Mont Blanc and other vessels off Marseille" made in 1803 by Roux may be mentioned, meaning he may be known to have painted this subject.

5) The main ship looks like a ship of the class of the 74-gun Mont-Blanc (?)

6) Roux' manner and style (?)

7) Roux' signature and date

If so, they are a body of evidence.

I am not the man who will bring you... :

2 hours ago, Wagram said:

the evidence I'm looking for. 

as I am no expert in naval paintings and don't have the elements at disposal. That's why I used 'may' and '(?)' in my post.

Neither do I know the content of the research of Christies' experts and others, unlike you (?) :

2 hours ago, Wagram said:

To sum up, the identity of this ship still has to be verified, in my opinion.

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[Wagram]

Ok, I try to rephrase.

The evidence I'm looking for is twofold.

First, one would have to establish whether the Mont-Blanc was stationed at Toulon in or around 1803. It was in the West Indies from 22 August 1801 till 9 July 1802, under the command of Charles-René Magon de Médine (Chef de division, 3 September 1799; promoted Contre-amiral, 16 March 1802). Magon returned not to Toulon but to Brest, apparently, presumably on the  Mont-Blanc. As a Contre-amiral he wouldn't continue to command the Mont-Blanc, so who took over and what happened to the Mont-Blanc? According to this site http://garde-chauvin.free-h.net/laflotteimperial/index.html, the ship joined the Toulon forces in 1804 only, but I don't know where they have the information from:

LE MONT BLANC

Vaisseau De 86

Escadre de Toulon en 1804. Reçoit une Aigle 1804. Trafalgar

If so, the ship would not have been at Toulon in 1803.

Second, one would have to establish who became commander of the Mont-Blanc after Magon? The ship's commander at Trafalgar, Guillaume-Jean-Noël Lavillegris (Chef de division 1797/1799, then, after the abolishment of that rank on 23 September 1800, reclassed Capitaine de vaisseau de 1re classe) took over on 8 March 1805 only (Quintin, Capitaines de vaisseau de Napoléon, p. 201). So, who was commander of the ship between July 1802 and March 1805, and why does Roux' painting of "1803" show a Chef de division's pennant when the rank had been abolished three years earlier?

Ganteaume had been for quite some time the ship's commander (from 1794 to 1798). He was Chef de division in the Mediterranean c. 1796-98 (appointed Contre-amiral 8 November 1798). So, if this ship were meant to represent the Mont-Blanc and its commander a Chef de divison (Ganteaume?), the painting would probably have been painted long before 1803 or, perhaps, it was executed in 1803 using sketches from the later 1790s...?

Anyway, I don't claim the ship isn't the Mont-Blanc but there are some strange discrepancies which make me wonder...sorry for that.

😐

[Wagram]

Cancelled.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Wagram

[Wagram]

Cancelled.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Wagram
clarification