Slave trade preferences

[Rithal]

Seeing that my last thread about the slave trade presented a large variety of opinions, I think it would be appropriate to poll the community to get an overall preference. 

 

Link to my original thread on slave trading. There are some good points brought up here. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3106-triangle-trade/

[Galileus]

Wouldn't it be more smartly of you to just ask OP of one of the existing topics to add a pool? We're getting quite a few at this point...

 

Anyhow, you lack the "I don't mind either way" option. And unless this is really hugely affecting gameplay - which it won't - this is my preferred option.

[Crossfader]

It happened, it was horrible. Should it be in the game, well thats up to the developpers. If they do so, hopefully its with tact. I voted yes, with the high risk, only because i feel that ignoring the fact that people were used and traded as good is akind to denying that it ever happened.

[thomas aagaard]

You bare missing the historical version.

Slave trade was legal for much of the relevant period... so there should not be a legal "label" since it was legal.
 

And similar, if you capture a slaveship taking the cargo to a port and selling it should be legal.

 

So basically, should be a type of goods like any other... just that they should lose value over time. or maybe count toward how much food you need on board to feed the crew.

 

Now to get the moral problem included, having some NPCs who will not do business with you would be an idea.

[PrezesOi]

Lack of options - Trafficking treated differently depending on the historical period, but always in accordance with the history, and the attitude of historical fraction.

 

Sure, we can pretend that there was no slavery, women dominated the Admiralty, and pirates were not thieves and murderers, but romantic adventurers.

[nebsif]

At least provide link in OP to previous thread coz I raised some valid points new guys might miss before voting....

[akd]

I think devs should stay away from this.  Plenty of other things to trade.

[OTMatt]

I don't mind it but its an unnecessary risk in my opinion.

[Crankey]

Torn between historical fact and modern day morality.

 

If the game has "fame and infamy" levels and these have strong in game effects then possibly there is a way to incorporate it at huge infamy cost. Otherwise I would say stick to ivory, teak and precious metals and stones.

[meatpukk]

why is this such a big deal anyways? does anyone really care if a game has slave trade? every space game ever have had slave trade, no one cared, many medieval games have slave trade noone really cares.
Do we really have to be so Politically correct that we trade authenticity for some unnecessary moral highground, that i doubt is really needed?
Do it like it was back in the day. allow us to shanghai crew too.

[Sin Khan]

The slave trade cannot be represented by players at all unless players attack and report all slave trade and free them.

 

1. If you allow players to trade in slaves it gives a nod that on some level it is OK because it is profitable.

 

2. It devalues the sanctity of human life and you cannot allow players to develop this attitude.

 

3. It is still going on today and allowing trade in this manner may actually subject the game to unfair press regardless of historical accuracy.

 

4. same effect of transporting humans can be has by transporting prisoners of war instead of slaves.

 

So, you cannot allow players to trade in slaves in this game first and foremost because of the mindset in the player that you create. The predominant mindset of the time was that half the world were savages that needed to be controlled and were barely human. It was because of this mindset that much of the world suffered. Allowing players to trade in slaves will create a continuance of this mindset that anything is OK as long as it is profitable. What comes next is the perishable goods factor being applied to human cargo. The trader would get a report saying that 10 slaves died in transport. Is that what you really want in this game? Is that the mindset that we want to create? Hell no. The developers have made no mention that slave trading will be put into this game, only other players have wondered this. I for one hope that they never include slave trading on any form or fashion except to attack anyone who trades in slaves and to free them. There are still slaves today. There is still a slave trade today in many parts of the world. It can never be allowed, even in a game, to profit in any way from slavery.

[Galileus]

To be fair, I do not know any longer if it's the white knights or the edgy knights that make me hope there was an option to throw the subject matter overboard without ever answering it...

 

Seriously, guys. Taboo is taboo. What it is not, is something that you do for fun and because it is taboo. What it is not either is some godly appearance that needs to be cherished and kept hidden from anyone's eyes in cases they go blind by looking at it and somehow stop thinking for themselves.

 

Just develop some distance. Some distance is really healthy, guys.

[PrezesOi]

Pretending that something didn't existed looks like hypocrisy to me. So maybe instead of changing history, just add educational layer/value?

Unless we assume as Sin Khan, that players are idiots, and they take games as morality source/example for mindless reproduction in real life

[Rithal]

The slave trade cannot be represented by players at all unless players attack and report all slave trade and free them.

 

1. If you allow players to trade in slaves it gives a nod that on some level it is OK because it is profitable.

 

2. It devalues the sanctity of human life and you cannot allow players to develop this attitude.

 

3. It is still going on today and allowing trade in this manner may actually subject the game to unfair press regardless of historical accuracy.

 

4. same effect of transporting humans can be has by transporting prisoners of war instead of slaves.

 

So, you cannot allow players to trade in slaves in this game first and foremost because of the mindset in the player that you create. The predominant mindset of the time was that half the world were savages that needed to be controlled and were barely human. It was because of this mindset that much of the world suffered. Allowing players to trade in slaves will create a continuance of this mindset that anything is OK as long as it is profitable. What comes next is the perishable goods factor being applied to human cargo. The trader would get a report saying that 10 slaves died in transport. Is that what you really want in this game? Is that the mindset that we want to create? Hell no. The developers have made no mention that slave trading will be put into this game, only other players have wondered this. I for one hope that they never include slave trading on any form or fashion except to attack anyone who trades in slaves and to free them. There are still slaves today. There is still a slave trade today in many parts of the world. It can never be allowed, even in a game, to profit in any way from slavery.

 

I don't think developers should be worried about the players "developing and attitude that devalues human life" from a video game. Have you ever played Grand Theft Auto? Hehe. You also mentioned "unfair press". Underline unfair. Any bad press that this game gets for keeping historical accuracy is unfair and should be held in high regard when developing a critique of the game imo. There are slaves in all sorts of games. Rome Total War 2 features the ability to enslave entire populations, yet it definitely has its repercussions. This is not any different.

[Kaos]

Not even sure if it's funny or sad that this person is demonizing slave trade, something that actually happened in history like it or not, speaking against it like a pinnacle of humanity himself yet has a signature where he burns his enemy to death, which seems to be okay and cool.

[William the Drake]

My vote is no. 

 

Again, I believe that there are some situations within a game's development that, while attempting to be historically, some aspects should not be highlighted. When it comes to the "realism", just like with female characters and avatars, all historic evidence for, or even against, should be completely disregarded. There are many other games that could have had the option to have slave trade (or slaves as a commodity) as a game mechanic because it occurred during their set time period, yet none did so:

 

1. East India Company

2. Sid Meier's Pirates! Live the Life

3. Empire Total War

4. Age of Empires III

5. American Conquest

6. Even Pirates of the Burning Sea, didn't have slavery, and you could have your avatar be a plethora of different races (in appearance at least, all in no way affecting game-play)

 

Some games have looked at slavery as a game-mechanic, however never as explicit as a physical commodity. Civilization IV: Colonization only has slavery as a possible choice of Constitutional policy once the Player has separated from their hist nation. The choice of slavery simply increases the production of raw materials in the game by 50%, while on the flip side; the policy of "All Men are Free" increases all settlement populations by 2. There is no slave unit or depiction of slaves other than this in the game.

 

I think in this case that the devs leave this option be and do not touch it.

[Sin Khan]

Look at all these statements promoting slavery and attacking me directly because I am speaking against it. 

 

Pretending that something didn't existed looks like hypocrisy to me. So maybe instead of changing history, just add educational layer/value?

Unless we assume as Sin Khan, that players are idiots, and they take games as morality source/example for mindless reproduction in real life

 

Here we have one member putting words in my mouth stating that I am calling everyone idiots that take their moral teachings from games. Apparently I must educate some members of the  forum of the fact that human morality is mostly taken directly from the actions of society. "When in Rome do as the Romans do" is just one such popular phrase that points to this idea. Few have read the words of Maurice Jolly when stating,

 

"Do you believe that a subject will keep his promises for long when he sees the sovereign betray his? That he will respect the laws when he sees that the law giver has violated them?Do you believe that a subject will hesitate to embark upon the path of violence, corruption, and fraud when he constantly sees walking there those who are charged with leading him?"

 

As well, any study of ethics and morality will educate one on the ideas of tribal or collective morality as mentioned in any ethics textbook and of course Wikipedia on "Morality" Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

 

 

"By contrast, tribal morality is prescriptive, imposing the norms of the collective on the individual. These norms will be arbitrary, culturally dependent and ‘flexible’, whereas territorial morality aims at rules which are universal and absolute, such as Kant’s ‘categorical imperative’ and Geisler's graded absolutism."

 

As well, no one is "pretending slavery didn't exist". Instead, I was one of the only members who mentioned that slavery still exists today. Whereas those who are promoting the slave trade in this game are the ones who only mention slavery as a fact of ancient history with no mention at all that it is a current problem today. Perhaps the members that promote slavery in this game should be marked by the developers as the first categorized slaves of the world, free to be captured by anyone and their game freedoms permanently terminated.

 

 

Not even sure if it's funny or sad that this person is demonizing slave trade, something that actually happened in history like it or not, speaking against it like a pinnacle of humanity himself yet has a signature where he burns his enemy to death, which seems to be okay and cool.

 

Once again, attacking my integrity directly as if the world does not distinguish combat under nations flags as separate from piracy, slavery, and other criminal acts. Attempting to use my own signature image against me only marks yourself as a childish antagonist with no apparent logic in his mindset.

 

I don't think developers should be worried about the players "developing and attitude that devalues human life" from a video game. Have you ever played Grand Theft Auto? Hehe. You also mentioned "unfair press". Underline unfair. Any bad press that this game gets for keeping historical accuracy is unfair and should be held in high regard when developing a critique of the game imo. There are slaves in all sorts of games. Rome Total War 2 features the ability to enslave entire populations, yet it definitely has its repercussions. This is not any different.

 

Morality, as linked earlier in this post, is taken directly from the influence of peers and social groups online or otherwise. To even claim the opposite shows a lack of ethics and morality education for all who have studied this subject or even bothers to research it will see the many theories about collective morality associations.

 

It is also plainly clear that many members of this game want to promote slaver and will illogically, childishly, and foolishly attempt to shame anyone else who stands against slavery. It reminds me of the uneducated south in the American civil war arguing so pointedly from a lack of any research or education on the matter that they alone convince many to go against them through their personal grudges and childish attacks against others. Notice well the mindset that these individuals have and tell me that this is the kind of immorality, personal attacks, and peer pressure that you want to promote in this game.

[nebsif]

@William: Kewl attempts at whitewashing history, just as silly as Germany banning Wolfenstein games cause they have Nazis - and ima Israeli jew (lived in Crimea&Russia till 9).

 

IF the open world map, at some point, expands from the Carribeans (?) to include West coast of europe and NW coast of Africa - then imo we need to have slaves as an option for trade. Just like if we had a ship game set in the Indian Ocean during 1800-1900 it would be silly not to have Opium as a resource. 

[meatpukk]

My vote is no. 

 

Again, I believe that there are some situations within a game's development that, while attempting to be historically, some aspects should not be highlighted. When it comes to the "realism", just like with female characters and avatars, all historic evidence for, or even against, should be completely disregarded. There are many other games that could have had the option to have slave trade (or slaves as a commodity) as a game mechanic because it occurred during their set time period, yet none did so:

 

1. East India Company

2. Sid Meier's Pirates! Live the Life

3. Empire Total War

4. Age of Empires III

5. American Conquest

6. Even Pirates of the Burning Sea, didn't have slavery, and you could have your avatar be a plethora of different races (in appearance at least, all in no way affecting game-play)

 

Some games have looked at slavery as a game-mechanic, however never as explicit as a physical commodity. Civilization IV: Colonization only has slavery as a possible choice of Constitutional policy once the Player has separated from their hist nation. The choice of slavery simply increases the production of raw materials in the game by 50%, while on the flip side; the policy of "All Men are Free" increases all settlement populations by 2. There is no slave unit or depiction of slaves other than this in the game.

 

I think in this case that the devs leave this option be and do not touch it.

yet many games have had slaves and slave trade. 

1. mount and blade.

2. the x series

3. crusader kings

4. Rome 2 Total War

5. every space 4x game i know of

6. even the akella games allowed you to trade slaves, and sell prisoners as slaves.

and no one really cared either way.

Slaves was a big part of society in those days, and it can be incorporated in a wide array of features. or not at all.

But to not have it in the game just to be "PC" is silly.

We are playing a game where we kill people by the hundreds, but slave trade is a no-no? isnt that a little hypocritical. can you not distance yourselves from a videogame?

[Galileus]

This discussion IS NOT ABOUT MORALITY. This is about a game mechanic. Do it or don't, NO-ONE EVER is going to take it as a manual, research history based on it or build his moral systems on what he encounters in it. Please, keep the topic about the GAME MECHANIC and not about morality of slavery.

 

This is going too far, on both sides. We're not in university discussing philosophy, we're on the game forums. Keep your meat throwing skills for the university, I would like to say we're more civilized here.

[ThePfeil]

I know that Akella's Age of Pirates titles had the possibility to trade slaves with the "cost" of increased food consumption. I'm torn about the issue, if slaves are to be "just another good on the list of tradeables", I don't see the point of having them at all. If their major impact on the economy of the overseas settlements however would be reflected properly, I could see it implemented (for historical correct depiction of the era, it simply wasn't a very humane time). It's a very "hot iron" though, and as long as the devs don't give a statement about if and how they'd see it implemented, I'll keep my vote at "No".

[PrezesOi]

 

It is also plainly clear that many members of this game want to promote slaver and will illogically, childishly, and foolishly attempt to shame anyone else who stands against slavery. 

 

Any proofs or that's just trolling? What a load of crap. Discussion when "arguments" are so detached from reality is waste of time.

EOT for me.

[meatpukk]

Look at all these statements promoting slavery and attacking me directly because I am speaking against it. 

 

 

Playing the victim card, and attacking/judging the people that responded to your post.

and last but not least dragging all that "I have studied morals and ethics" shit in there.

A real pillar of morality we got here.

Im with Galileus on this one

Add slave trade if it can be used as a cool game mechanic. (which i think it can be)

Dont add it if its not prioritized.

[Rithal]

Look at all these statements promoting slavery and attacking me directly because I am speaking against it. 

 

 

Here we have one member putting words in my mouth stating that I am calling everyone idiots that take their moral teachings from games. Apparently I must educate some members of the  forum of the fact that human morality is mostly taken directly from the actions of society. "When in Rome do as the Romans do" is just one such popular phrase that points to this idea. Few have read the words of Maurice Jolly when stating,

 

"Do you believe that a subject will keep his promises for long when he sees the sovereign betray his? That he will respect the laws when he sees that the law giver has violated them?Do you believe that a subject will hesitate to embark upon the path of violence, corruption, and fraud when he constantly sees walking there those who are charged with leading him?"

 

As well, any study of ethics and morality will educate one on the ideas of tribal or collective morality as mentioned in any ethics textbook and of course Wikipedia on "Morality" Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

 

 

"By contrast, tribal morality is prescriptive, imposing the norms of the collective on the individual. These norms will be arbitrary, culturally dependent and ‘flexible’, whereas territorial morality aims at rules which are universal and absolute, such as Kant’s ‘categorical imperative’ and Geisler's graded absolutism."

 

As well, no one is "pretending slavery didn't exist". Instead, I was one of the only members who mentioned that slavery still exists today. Whereas those who are promoting the slave trade in this game are the ones who only mention slavery as a fact of ancient history with no mention at all that it is a current problem today. Perhaps the members that promote slavery in this game should be marked by the developers as the first categorized slaves of the world, free to be captured by anyone and their game freedoms permanently terminated.

 

 

 

Once again, attacking my integrity directly as if the world does not distinguish combat under nations flags as separate from piracy, slavery, and other criminal acts. Attempting to use my own signature image against me only marks yourself as a childish antagonist with no apparent logic in his mindset.

 

 

Morality, as linked earlier in this post, is taken directly from the influence of peers and social groups online or otherwise. To even claim the opposite shows a lack of ethics and morality education for all who have studied this subject or even bothers to research it will see the many theories about collective morality associations.

 

It is also plainly clear that many members of this game want to promote slaver and will illogically, childishly, and foolishly attempt to shame anyone else who stands against slavery. It reminds me of the uneducated south in the American civil war arguing so pointedly from a lack of any research or education on the matter that they alone convince many to go against them through their personal grudges and childish attacks against others. Notice well the mindset that these individuals have and tell me that this is the kind of immorality, personal attacks, and peer pressure that you want to promote in this game.

You are really taking this a little too far... This isn't a college ethics and morality class. This is an internet forum. I don't think including slavery in the game is at all condoning it. But yeah, you are seriously going overboard here. You suggest that those who would like the ability to trade slaves to be included (Myself) should be "categorized as slaves" and should be "free to be captured by anyone and have their game freedoms terminated." I'm trying to figure out if you are the best troll on the internet or if you are just insane. You go on to say that we remind you of the uneducated south. This in itself is very offensive to southern people, implying that just because they had slaves once upon a time, ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD, they are uneducated. Do yourself a favor and stop.

[akd]

The problem is that the "mechanics" that make the slave trade distinct from the trade of other goods are reprehensible behaviors that we really don't want players to simulate in the game, e.g. slaves dying during a slow passage, torture and brutality to prevent uprising, etc. Without simulating the horrible human aspects of the slave trade, "slaves" are just another cargo.

Game Labs doesn't have to be beholden to the social and political realities of the era they draw ships (technology) from. They can present an alternate reality in which all nations have the opportunity to be great naval powers and in which the slave trade has already been universally banned.