Ship request - 2nd rate

[admin]

Hello Captains.. 

 

We want to bring a generic 2nd rate into the game. 

Please suggest a model. Include references, paintings and links to tech drawings if they exist.

 

This is urgent - we want to start building it asap.

 

• Time period 1700-1800
• Guns 80-98
• Countries preferred: Sweden, France, Russia, Spain, Turkey, maybe Denmark, Britain is also ok but want to make some other nation
• We want it to be a generic ship - so would prefer vessels with less esquisite decorations

 

If you have already suggested a similar model in other topic repost here. 

[Pelgerean]

Why not use the French version of the Tonnant (Captured by the British at the Nile)

 

She was the lead ship in her class laid down in 1787

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tonnant_%281798%29

[Pelgerean]

Sketch of Sans Pariel in this class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sans_Pareil_%281794%29#mediaviewer/File:HMS_Sans_Pareil_%281794%29.jpg

 

Painting of William Tell, (HMS Malta) another ship in this class http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Guillaume_Tell_PU5634.jpg

 

Stern view of Formidable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Formidable_%281795%29#mediaviewer/File:Beau_fait_d%27armes_du_capitaine_Troude_3895.jpg

Sketch of Franklin before she was captured by the British and renamed HMS Canopus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Canopus_%281798%29#mediaviewer/File:HMS_Canopus_%281798%29.jpg

 

Lots of famous ships in this class.

[norsewind]

How about the Bucentaure class, the Bucentaure being the flag ship of the French fleet at Trafalgar

[Stormfox]

I found some French ship with 80 guns. I do not know if it is a second rate ship though.

 

Soleil-Royal (1749):

https://www.google.nl/search?q=Soleil-Royal+(1749)&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3wCcVOKtAY7iaoSwgegM&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=944&bih=937

[leviath]

I'm all for the Bucentaure, quite a generic ship.

[Pelgerean]

I'm all for the Bucentaure, quite a generic ship.

 Only problem with Bucentaure is that it was late in the period and by the time it was launched was only really a third rate.

[Edward Pellew]

YAS! SECOND RATE 98 GUNS YAS!

[Preble]

Temeraire was French, then captured by the British and used at Trafalgar.  Should be a good generic 2nd rate.

[Pelgerean]

Temeraire was French, then captured by the British and used at Trafalgar.  Should be a good generic 2nd rate.

 

Unfortunately a commonly stated mistake. They where actually two different ships.

 

The first ship in the Royal Navy was a captured french third rate, launched in 1749 and captured by the British in the battle of lagos in 1759. She was subsequently sold out of the navy and broken up in 1784.

 

The Temeraire of Turner fame, which fought at Trafalgar was the second ship to bear the name, laid down in 1793 in Chatham and was indeed a 98 gun second rate and would be a great candidate for a generic second rate BUT i sense the admins where looking for a none British ship.

[Pelgerean]

If the Temeraire is the way you want to go, here on the designs for HMS Dreadnought which was a ship in the same class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Temeraire_%281798%29#mediaviewer/File:Neptune_class_plan.jpg

 

Unfortunately whilst their are many painting of Temeraire most contain known inaccuracies.

[Robert Danforth]

Anything listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_line_of_the_Royal_Navy#List_of_ships-of-the-line_of_the_Royal_Navy_.281755.E2.80.931785.29

 

I happen to like the Duke-class, for no real reason. A Sandwich could be fun, just so I could say "I'm in a Sandwich."

[OTMatt]

I'm gonna have to suggest British just for Samuel Hoods request a few months earlier.

 

HMS Barfleur 1768 with 90 guns and the potential upgrade of 98 guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barfleur-class_ship_of_the_line

 

 

 

This site contains all the blueprint drawings of Barfleur

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections.html#!csearch;searchTerm=barfleur

 

I do not have many more blueprints or sail plan sadly but maybe you will have better luck with the sister ship Princess Royal which I think is slightly different from the Barfleur. The same site with Barfleur blueprints also has the Princess Royal blueprints.

 

[Mirones]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Duc_de_Bourgogne_(1752)

The Duc de Bourgogne was an 80-gun ship of the line of the French Navy.

She was refitted twice, in and 1761 and 1779, having her hull coppered.

Under Charles de Ternay, she was the flagship of the expeditionary corps that left on 2 May 1780 for the American war of Independence, and carried the Count of Rochambeau.

She took part in the Battle of the Saintes, where she collided with Bourgogne ^%5B1%5D

In 1792, she was renamed Peuple, and Caton in 1794.

She was eventually broken up in 1800.

like allway hard to find plans in short time

[Andriyy]

1. Britain - HMS Atlas (1782)

HMS Atlas was a 98-gun second-rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy, launched on 13 February 1782.^[1] She was a Duke-class ship of the line built at Chatham Dockyard by Nicholas Phillips.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Atlas_(1782)

 

 

2. French ship Protecteur (1760)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Protecteur

 

The Protecteur was a 74-gun ship of the line of the French Navy, the only to have borne the name.

She was laid down in 1757 and launched in 1760.

Under M. de Grasse-Limermont, the Protecteur took part in the American revolutionary war, notably the Battle of Grenada [1] and the Third Battle of Ushant.

A model of a 64-ship of the line on display at the Musée de la Marine is labelled as representing the Protecteur, probably as the result of an error of Admiral Pâris. The model is probably that of the Protée (1748 - 1771)

 

 

3. Russian "Saint Eustace Plakida" (1763)

 

"Saint Eustace Plakida" - the 66-gun sailing linear ship of the Baltic Fleet, with the displacement about 1820 t, 47,4 m long, 12,6 m wide, hold of 5,5 m in depth. Arms: 66 canons (calibers of 96, 121 and 152 mm). Was constructed in 1763.

 

Features of a design of the Russian 66-gun ships allowed them to carry guns of the same caliber as guns of the 70-gun ships of foreign fleet

 

 

4. Russian "Firm" (1805)

"Firm". 90 guns. Length is 56,71 m. Width is 15,5 m. Was put on water on August 16, 1802 in S.-Petersburg admiralty as 90-gun, but in 1803 it is remade in the 74-gun. It is lowered on July 18, 1805.

 

 

5. Russian - "Saint Pavel" (1794)

 

"Saint Pavel" — the sailing 80-gun linear ship of the Black Sea fleet of Russia. The ship was put in Nikolaev in 1791, floated in 1794, was a part of the Black Sea fleet.

 

Total number of cannons 90/84/82

24 x 36-pound guns and 6x 1-pood unicorns

26 x 24-pound guns and 6 x 1-pood unicorns

22 x 6-pound guns

 

 

6. Russian "Saint Andrey" (1721)

 

Saint Andrey — the sailing linear ship 2 ranks floated in 1721. Sailing 80-gun linear ship.

 

 

[renhanxue]

There are a few possible Swedish ships but all of them are from the period right around 1700 and I haven't been able to find drawings of them yet. Göta Lejon (90 guns, launched 1702, flagship of the Swedish navy at Køge Bay in 1710 and at Rügen in 1715) is one possibility, her sister Tre Kronor (86 guns originally could carry up to 96, launched 1706 and lost at Køge Bay in 1710) is another. After this though the Swedish navy didn't build any ships of the line bigger than a 74 until the mid-1800's and by then they were steam-assisted.

 

If you're willing to extend to 1690 or so there are a few more examples, such as Konung Karl aka. Carolus Rex, a three-decker originally built in 1696 as a 108 but later reduced to 96 guns. It was said to have a very elaborate stern, though. 

 

There's also a few Chapman drawings that might be suitable.

 

I know drawings of Carolus Rex exist at the national archives but the others I'm unsure about, maybe the museum of maritime history has some.

[admin]

any swedish ships?

[Flip]

I'd have to go for the Christianus Sixtus - 1733

 

A Danish SOL. (90 Guns at launch)

She's very beautiful.

 

http://www.orlogsbasen.dk/tegn/190-2000.jpg

http://www.orlogsbasen.dk/tegn/A1167b.jpg

[Mirones]

any swedish ships?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_ships_of_Sweden

nope nothing and the once that exist are before 1700 and got later rearmed down to 70gun or 66gun you also have to take into account that the shallow waters of the fjords and baltic in general didnt allow much space for the bigger beasts  other wise 74gun 66gun or 42gun/52gun or the Swedish Krona 128gun but its very hard to find any information or plans of these sadly.

 

so chapman books to the rescue!

otherwise take any 80-90gun shipplans and put an generic stern on it i'm sure that you can bring up a nice surprise for us.

[renhanxue]

any swedish ships?

 

See my post above. If I follow your requirements strictly and look at ships that were actually in service there are only two certain candidates:

- Göta Lejon, 90 guns, launched 1702, broken up 1745

- Tre Kronor, 86 guns, launched 1706, lost at Køge Bay in 1710

 

I don't think drawings of either have survived; if they have they're neither at the museum of maritime history nor at the national archives. If you extend to 1690 there's a few more possibilities but I can't find drawings of those either so it doesn't really matter. Still, I'll go to the national archives on Monday so I can double check it then.

 

So, to Chapman's archives we go! There's a number of drawings of a 94 gun ship based on various physical experiments conducted in 1796 here: http://www.sjohistoriska.se/sv/Fordjupning/MarketStore/Ritning/?msobjid=0003645&Origin=SM

 

Unfortunately there are no previews available so you've gotta give the museum 250 SEK (about 25 EUR) per drawing for scans if you want to see them.

[renhanxue]

Took another look at the national archives search engine and found two Chapman projects from the 1790's with 80 and 94 guns respectively. Dunno how I missed those before. I'll get you photos on Monday!

[Mirones]

looking forward to see what you bring up mate take as much time in the archiev as you can

or else you might miss something that could be usefull for something else

[renhanxue]

There's way too much stuff for me to photo at once, but you can look at the index yourself if you want to: http://sok.riksarkivet.se/digitala-arkiv?Arkivsok=marinens+ritningar&Lan=0&Arkivtyp=Alla&EndastDigitaliserat=false&page=1&postid=Arkis+71971c9a-e6b2-46f6-aba6-cc9217c9a153&tab=post&FacettState=undefined%3ac%7c&s=TARKIS08_Balder

[Comandante Gómez]

A member of Real Armada Española has given to me this information to be posted in this thread (Pasanius):

 

The Argonauta.

The Argonauta was the last ship of the line built in Spain. Was built and launched in Ferrol in june 1798, following the designs of Julián de Retamosa for Montañés class (pronounced Montannies).

Was a ship with 53,47 m length, beam of 14,4 meters  and draft of 7 meters. Her crew: 642 men within oficiales de guerra (war officers), oficiales mayores (major officers), tropa  (troops), marineros (sailors), artilleros (gunners), grumetes (cabin boys) and pajes (page boys), though these numbers could variate due to circumstances. In Trafalgar were 800 men. Her casualties in that battle: 100 dead and 200 injured. The English fleet captured her on october the 29, and sinked her next day after set fire on her to avoid a recapture. 

In the starting of her service, was loaded with 80 guns distributed in the following way:

• 30 guns of 24 pd in the first deck.
• 32 guns of 18 pd in the second deck.
• 4 carronades of 18 pd and 18 guns of 8 pd in the fore and stern castle.

The San Fernando.

The San Fernando was a ship of the line built in the main shipyard of La Habana (Cuba) under the Jorge Juan's system. Was launched on July the 24 of 1765, and served in the Spanish armada until was sold to a private person on 1815.

Was a ship with 54,88 m of length, 15,6 m of beam and  7,8 m of draft. Her crew: 878 men.

80 guns were loaded when her started her service, though this number was increased in 1798 to 98 guns, distributed in the following way:

• 30 guns of 36 pd in the first deck.
• 32 guns of 18 pd in the second deck.
• 32 guns of 8 pd in the third deck
• 4 carronades of 4 pd in the fore and stern castle.

That's and example.  

[RAMJB]

Montañes is a 3rd rate - I'd love to see it in the game (It was one of the best 3rd rate designs of it's time), but is not what they're asking for.

 

San Fernando gets my vote . If that's a no-go then Bucentaure (exception made of the Santisima, the whole lineup in the game is made out of british ships. A french one would seem desirable)