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Short announcement on the 1.5x BR reinforcement limit


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Firstly:
 

--

 

 

 

???

 

Unless you really want to go into semantics and argue that "stop" isn't the same as "reduce". I'm trying to argue the point here that the current system does not stop, battle or reduce ganking. It has in fact made it easier and as such has become more prevalent.

Ice, the whole topic and the patch around the "ganking" was just initiated by the " I can jump invisible out of a battle to attack someone out of nowhere" tactics that were used and are still in use.

So it didn't changed anything, and yes the admin says earlier here, that the fix was happen around stopping the ganking. But, still, if you read the other forums and everything which was about the beginning of these patches -  you will see, that it was about the camping in battlescreen in the first place and not about the whole ganking system!

Thus Hethwill was right if he asks anyone kindly to reread the forums!
 

Secondly:
 


Wars should not be easy to start and they should be costly. So that nations would think before act. Also. Sailing still does not cost anything. Sailing a 12 victory group should be so expencive that no one bothered to do that just to attack one trader. That's when the gangking stops and also that is when the smaller ships become more important and everyone want's to have one. If one crew member get's 1 gredit per day the sailing with a Victory would cost you 800 per day. I think that it should cost even more. Maybe 3 gretits per day.

Balls should also cost and take room from the cargo. So that ammo would not be endles. Capturing ship should reguire half of your crew to sail it to the harbor and you would only get your crew back by sailing there yourself. Recruiting crew should be very very difficult.

So that the greatest recourse would infact be people.

If you lost 100-200 crew in battle you should start thinking of pulling back even if your ship would not be sinking. Not because you lost the crew but because getting 200 guys recruited would be a royal pain in the ass.

Perhaps you could even keep a reserve in town but you would have to pay them vages like for the crew on the sea or they would leave and go work for someone else.

Are you insane?

First of all, the nations wasn't able to attack as easy as it is now. But you can not integrate that into a game.
And if you ever played on e.g. PVP 1, you might now, that it is not as easy as you said to start a war. There are so many thinks, that have to be noticed.
E.g. The situation in your own nation! (What is every clan / player thinking about it) - The diplomatic situations, like do you have a peace treatment? Is the other nation associated with someone? If you attack (just as example) Spain, will the US (which might be associated) declare war at you too?
And many more thinks.

Maybe it is way easier on PVP 3 where just a few (compared to PVP1) players are.

To your other statement:
Sailors of the army, where paid by the nation they belonged to. Not by the captains! (apart of pirates)
The Victory class and every great ship (non-traders) are part of to those Nations. Those nations were financed by their citizens.
This is nothing, that you might be able to implement in a game too.
Thus your next point regarding the recruiting is invalid and make no sense either.
(There are to many players in the game to use this system)


Edit: It just made me crazy seeing those posts without comment <_<
 

Edited by Twig
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Look. I make my opinion simple.

 

If I'm British. On British territory I get attacked. Everyone who is on my nation should be able to come to my aid as long as I'm alive in the battle.

If there is diplomacy and Brits and France have peace and I sail to frenc waters and frenc player attacks me. He becomes a Pirate.

No invisibility when coming out of harbor. Invunerability yes but no invisibility. Both still on when coming out of battle.

 

If you get ganked you get ganked. That's it. Tuff luck. But if you have friends along and you get ganked you should get friends in battle to help you.

No time limits on joinin g the battles. I dont understand what is the point in them. Just dont allow for joining twice.

Edited by Monsteri
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People seem, for the most part, to not be very happy with the new system, it's made as many new problems as it has fixed, judging by peoples reactions to it.

 

Part of the problem I think is that different types of players and their respective play styles have their own demands for what they believe a good system would be and these needs are almost in direct opposition to each other. 

 

Some players like to hunt other players alone and want those 1v1 fights. Others like being in small groups and jumping on that lone trader or fancy ship. Still others want to be able to sail along without having 6 mates tagging along and still be able if attacked to have a fair fight or chance of help arriving, while those doing the attacking, (for obvious reasons) don't want any help to arrive. Then there's the big fleet guys. the ones in the big ships going to the big port battles, who don't want the flag carrier or any of their 25 guys to be dragged separately into lots of small fights as they try get to a port despite being grouped up. They all want a different system that works for them.

 

So fixes/suggestions. These are just my thoughts but:

 

when a battle is over, put a timer on ( no more than 5 mins for example) that kicks anyone in that battle onto the end battle screen, have a time run on the battle screen that then kicks anyone out into the open world ( again no more than 5 mins) with the added effect that in the last few minutes you start to use your invisibility/invulnerability timer. So if you leave quickly you get that bonus if not and you sit and hide in the battle screen you start to loose it.

 

make open world fights again 25vs25 instead of 50 of any nomination. This just promotes Zerg like tactics.This is a new mechanic I believe that was put in with the latest big patch and was not properly thought through. Before open world fights were limited to 25vs25 not to a 50 total, meaning 49vs1 sitiuations were not and now are, possible. This change while not a problem for most of the time is a real big problem for organised big scale PvP.

 

make it so deep water ships can't attack shallow water ships ( except traders ) and shallow water ships must have more BR to be able to attack deep water ones. 1 cutter should not be able to attack a 1st rate  but 10 cutters together should.

 

Remove the 1.5 BR and have battles stay open to joining for 5 mins. wait for it. Have the timer work differently depending if your an attacker or defender. Have the timer change based on the difference in BR between the two sides.

 

The bigger the difference in BR between the sides the faster the timer ticks down. attacker has more people in, the attackers open timer ticks down quicker and the longer the defenders timer stays open and vice versa. allowing for more people to come help the defender. so for example a lone player is attacked by another player, 5 min timer starts, another attacker jumps in, attackers 5 min timer goes down to 4 mins defenders timer goes up to 6 mins ( these are just arbitrary times used for an example) another defender jumps in, so now 2vs2 the defender time drops down and the attack timer goes up again. so if people keep joining on either side the fight stays open for longer. This system can be based off the BR difference and/or the difference in number of players on either side.

 

BR values reworked for ships. Perhaps a multiplier effect based on the difference in number of players between the two sides in a fight. right now a victory is 900 BR that is equivalent of 4 trincs and a cerb. add in the 1.5 BR system and you could have another 2 trincs against the Victory making it 6 trincs and a cerb and be just under the 1.5 BR meaning none else can join to help the victory. this seems unbalanced to me.

 

If your within the battle circle and your ally is attacked or your ally attacks someone you should get the option to join the fight or not join it. Only the person tagging or being tagged is automatically pulled into a fight.

 

The OW battle marker for a fight should simply change looks when its closed not disappear. So people can see enemies/friendlies are in this area fighting and be on guard.

 

you should not be able to click teleport to capital while you are invulnerable.

 

 

Feel free to poke holes. Just me thinking and typing at same time :P

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People seem, for the most part, to not be very happy with the new system, it's made as many new problems as it has fixed, judging by peoples reactions to it.

 

Part of the problem I think is that different types of players and their respective play styles have their own demands for what they believe a good system would be and these needs are almost in direct opposition to each other. 

 

Some players like to hunt other players alone and want those 1v1 fights. Others like being in small groups and jumping on that lone trader or fancy ship. Still others want to be able to sail along without having 6 mates tagging along and still be able if attacked to have a fair fight or chance of help arriving, while those doing the attacking, (for obvious reasons) don't want any help to arrive. Then there's the big fleet guys. the ones in the big ships going to the big port battles, who don't want the flag carrier or any of their 25 guys to be dragged separately into lots of small fights as they try get to a port despite being grouped up. They all want a different system that works for them.

 

So fixes/suggestions. These are just my thoughts but:

 

when a battle is over, put a timer on ( no more than 5 mins for example) that kicks anyone in that battle onto the end battle screen, have a time run on the battle screen that then kicks anyone out into the open world ( again no more than 5 mins) with the added effect that in the last few minutes you start to use your invisibility/invulnerability timer. So if you leave quickly you get that bonus if not and you sit and hide in the battle screen you start to loose it.

 

make open world fights again 25vs25 instead of 50 of any nomination. This just promotes Zerg like tactics.This is a new mechanic I believe that was put in with the latest big patch and was not properly thought through. Before open world fights were limited to 25vs25 not to a 50 total, meaning 49vs1 sitiuations were not and now are, possible. This change while not a problem for most of the time is a real big problem for organised big scale PvP.

 

make it so deep water ships can't attack shallow water ships ( except traders ) and shallow water ships must have more BR to be able to attack deep water ones. 1 cutter should not be able to attack a 1st rate  but 10 cutters together should.

 

Remove the 1.5 BR and have battles stay open to joining for 5 mins. wait for it. Have the timer work differently depending if your an attacker or defender. Have the timer change based on the difference in BR between the two sides.

 

The bigger the difference in BR between the sides the faster the timer ticks down. attacker has more people in, the attackers open timer ticks down quicker and the longer the defenders timer stays open and vice versa. allowing for more people to come help the defender. so for example a lone player is attacked by another player, 5 min timer starts, another attacker jumps in, attackers 5 min timer goes down to 4 mins defenders timer goes up to 6 mins ( these are just arbitrary times used for an example) another defender jumps in, so now 2vs2 the defender time drops down and the attack timer goes up again. so if people keep joining on either side the fight stays open for longer. This system can be based off the BR difference and/or the difference in number of players on either side.

 

BR values reworked for ships. Perhaps a multiplier effect based on the difference in number of players between the two sides in a fight. right now a victory is 900 BR that is equivalent of 4 trincs and a cerb. add in the 1.5 BR system and you could have another 2 trincs against the Victory making it 6 trincs and a cerb and be just under the 1.5 BR meaning none else can join to help the victory. this seems unbalanced to me.

 

If your within the battle circle and your ally is attacked or your ally attacks someone you should get the option to join the fight or not join it. Only the person tagging or being tagged is automatically pulled into a fight.

 

The OW battle marker for a fight should simply change looks when its closed not disappear. So people can see enemies/friendlies are in this area fighting and be on guard.

 

you should not be able to click teleport to capital while you are invulnerable.

 

 

Feel free to poke holes. Just me thinking and typing at same time :P

 

Some decent suggestions, but deep water ships should certainly be able to attack shallow water ships.  The only modification I think is that anyone that pvps in a basic cutter vs deep water ships should get insta on-fire effect.

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Look. I make my opinion simple.

 

If I'm British. On British territory I get attacked. Everyone who is on my nation should be able to come to my aid as long as I'm alive in the battle.

If there is diplomacy and Brits and France have peace and I sail to frenc waters and frenc player attacks me. He becomes a Pirate.

No invisibility when coming out of harbor. Invunerability yes but no invisibility. Both still on when coming out of battle.

 

If you get ganked you get ganked. That's it. Tuff luck. But if you have friends along and you get ganked you should get friends in battle to help you.

No time limits on joinin g the battles. I dont understand what is the point in them. Just dont allow for joining twice.

 

That's ridiculous.  Nelson didn't get to pull the entire British Fleet into battle with him when he needed help - he made do with the resources that were immediately available within a reasonable sailing distance.  

 

No time limits on joining battles?  This ensures that if you enter a battle, you're going to sink.  Period.  We had this once, and people being able to come from all over the map made a huge mess of things.  This isn't "the group with the most numbers gets to push the auto-win button", this is a game that attempts to recreate naval battles of the period.  Those battles didn't have ships from 700 miles away jumping into combat when they heard a magic distress call over the air - a Captain sailing alone fought alone.  That is the way it should be.

 

If your friend gets attacked and needs help, and you aren't sailing there with him to help him, that's tough luck.  Trying to skew mechanics to ensure the biggest nation/clan always wins every battle is shortsighted and makes for poor gameplay.

 

2 minute timers ensure you know who can get involved in the battle because they are within a reasonable distance to have been able to fight based on "correct" an unaccelerated sailing speeds.  The BR 1.5 change?  Meh, I can take it or leave it.  I'm fine with either choice.  I will, however, fight to the death for 2 minute timers because I've seen the mess that results from 10 minute timers, and no-timers.  My personal feeling is that those who advocate for no timers or long timers are simply those who are able to, and enjoy making sure they can bring 24 friends to every battle with them, no matter where those friends are.

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In essence this has made reinforcing a battle with big ships impossible. You can tackle a ganking fleet, but you can not poor enough ships into the defense to do anything about them. Effectively making them obsolete except for PB and allowing gankers to run around all day.

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People seem, for the most part, to not be very happy with the new system, it's made as many new problems as it has fixed, judging by peoples reactions to it.

 

Restrictions tend to generate very vocal reactions (usually hyperbolic and laden with blackmail threats) from a limited subset. The addition of land to instances is a far more significant change than a 1.5x BR reinforcement limiter (which is actually not even new, as such limiters have been experimented with before), yet note how this addition has gone almost completely unremarked in comparison to the outrage about not being able to reinforce battles past 1.5x BR. Other changes to battle instance creation were both necessary to have land in instances and to resolve ongoing problems with the disconnect between OW and battle time and space. In fact, more problems have been solved than created, and we get land!

Also, a core problem is that quite a few people complaining the loudest do not know how instance creation and reinforcement works now, which complicates the discussion. I think if we pare things down, the problems are quite limited, and some "new" problems are just variations on old problems (e.g. port battle fleet splitting).

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Restrictions tend to generate very vocal reactions (usually hyperbolic and laden with blackmail threats) from a limited subset. The addition of land to instances is a far more significant change than a 1.5x BR reinforcement limiter (which is actually not even new, as such limiters have been experimented with before), yet note how this addition has gone almost completely unremarked in comparison to the outrage about not being able to reinforce battles past 1.5x BR. Other changes to battle instance creation were both necessary to have land in instances and to resolve ongoing problems with the disconnect between OW and battle time and space. In fact, more problems have been solved than created, and we get land!

Also, a core problem is that quite a few people complaining the loudest do not know how instance creation and reinforcement works now, which complicates the discussion. I think if we pare things down, the problems are quite limited, and some "new" problems are just variations on old problems (e.g. port battle fleet splitting).

Not even close to the reality. We've been testing the new system all week.

The land is cute and nice. But it doesn't really come into play all that much. It does require some players to turn graphic settings lower for battles. It also doesn't have shallows. You get to sail right up to the beach. If you can get an enemy to chase you to an island on the open sea that had shallows you normally can't cross. You can tag him in battles then suprise him by going around the island that you can now cross. Without the shallows it's not exactly the same but it is still a pretty nice addition.

The BR rule and I'm not going to get into the specifics again, has much more exploitable potential than having land is worth. If it was ever an either or choice you can take the land away if it has to be done to get rid of the 1.5 BR restriction. Players will avoid games that force them to split from playing with their friends and family. No amount of land eye candy is going to change that.

Edited by Bach
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@Henry d'Esterre Darby

 

Argument that battle timer is needed becouse it would be unreasonable for people to join in battle from far away, is a valid one. However I don't think that timer is adequate choice. For one 2 minutes is really short time, given turning rate and wind changes it could mean that with only let's say 30 second distraction you can't join the battle you normally would, or you just notice too late that one of players nearby got into battle. basically just a couple of second can decide if you can join or not... in real life if you see enemy it can be hours before battle starts and all parties involved have a lot of time to decide what to do during the chase.

 

Given that and need to keep things sensible time limit is not the greatest of solutions. What I think would be a nice idea to include distance from battle (at the battle start) not the time. So let's say battle is only visible for any ship that was inside of certain range at the time when the battle started. That way you still have time to think a little bit and decide if you want to join or not, and if you notice just couple of seconds too late you still can jump in.

 

More than that if the battle were invisible (or marked as closed) to anyone outside of this range it would be less infuriating than current concept, because nothing is more upsetting than being just a couple of seconds too late :)

 

As for the BR limit, given that system if you got yourself into situation where there are a lot enemies around you it is basically only your fault an you should be punished. More than that range system could be interesting because it could make an option to confront enemy near yo more pleasing given that his mates are still out of range since it could mean you would have only one enemy to deal with not more.

 

Of course I'm not saying that this system is perfect, but it is still better option in my opinion.

Edited by Wyspa
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Hi devs and capts,

 

Today I’ve been involved in open world pvp. My first time in this patch. The experience was not good at all.

 

A few miles out of my faction's capital, I found I chap in 3rd Rate that was caught by 2 Renomees. No problem with that.

The thing was that no one in my friends group could join the fight, even when we were below the swords  after less than 1 min, because the 1.5 BR (battle rating) diff as 2 Renos make 220BR, 3rd rate makes 500 (if I am not mistaken).

So my friend was doomed. (Please don’t argue about player's skill, try to imagine 4 Renos instead of 2, the result would be the same)

 

As standard procedure, we waited outside the battle trying to hunt those Renos. Of course, knowing that we could only target them under that 1.5BR unfit rule. Then, one of them sail directed to our capital's protected waters, and we could not target it. Shame!

 

The first thing that prevents ganking is that you can be ganked too. Now you’re giving gankers more safe places and ways to gank.

 

Easy solution (at least easy to be written)

  1. If you are happy with this 1.5 BR (I personally am not) keep it only for the attacker’s side. If you start the fight , defenders side can join in the battle by the 2min rule (and then, more attackers till 1.5BR).
  2. Make attackers flagged for a time or distance to the battle location that they started, where they can be targeted without the 1.5 rule.
  3. Make protected waters only protected by the water’s owner.

Or be prepared to have teams of 2 or 3 or 4 low BR ships ganking players in capitals’ waters. 

 

(Cheers and congrats if you manage to read this tome til the end)

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Here is the new ganking guide:

  1. Tag one or more ships with 1 or 2 of your own, so the instance gets created.
  2. Await until timer runs close to closure and watch defense fleet bugger around, sailing through the circle or whatever.
  3. Join in battle.

There is an optional 2a, which is sail across the circle and join from that end. Just to make sure the gankee doesn't get out.

 

This is especially a good tactic going with grey frigates against a couple of 1st/2nd/3rds. In that case the 1.5 will ensure nobody else gets in.

 

Reason #1 of this change has now been totally refuted.

 

I do think the circle of reinforcements is a good thing though, but it needs reworking. I'm thinking along the lines similar to Babble's proposal. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13167-short-announcement-on-the-15x-br-reinforcement-limit/?p=241332

 

How about make the circle grow at a slow, but exponential rate, say 0.1 m/s2?

After 2 minutes the circle would be growing at 11 knots, you can close the battle then.

Then we can also get rid of the 1.5 rule.

 

Lets tackle the arguments again:

He sails in a large ganking group looking for smaller groups to sink

It looks like a non-argument, you can still create a 25v1 battle. If you sail alone or in small group on PvP, you are taking risks. Nothing wrong with that.

 

He can't keep station and sail as an organized group - spreading out to find more targets so they all could gang up on them

Hehe, you could argue that sailing as a scout (which I do) thus finding more targets is being better organized. ;)

With the growing circle the main fleet would have to join up and invest time to get into engagement range.

 

He wants to join already unbalanced battles (for example he wants to join the 10v1 and make it 11v1)

A late joiner will have to invest time. The "defender" should keep a lookout and maintain tactical awareness of any such reinforcements.

 

He wants to sit in battle and then jump out and join the instance after their tackler tagged someone on the OW

Again the growing circle will work in his disadvantage.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13399-battle-results-screen-limit/?p=245427

 

Most importantly, it will allow people to enter a form of battle, thus creating the gaming experience I hope we all want to see. :D

 

I think I have tackled all bases, please let me know what you think.

Edited by Skully
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Restrictions tend to generate very vocal reactions (usually hyperbolic and laden with blackmail threats) from a limited subset. The addition of land to instances is a far more significant change than a 1.5x BR reinforcement limiter (which is actually not even new, as such limiters have been experimented with before), yet note how this addition has gone almost completely unremarked in comparison to the outrage about not being able to reinforce battles past 1.5x BR. Other changes to battle instance creation were both necessary to have land in instances and to resolve ongoing problems with the disconnect between OW and battle time and space. In fact, more problems have been solved than created, and we get land!

Also, a core problem is that quite a few people complaining the loudest do not know how instance creation and reinforcement works now, which complicates the discussion. I think if we pare things down, the problems are quite limited, and some "new" problems are just variations on old problems (e.g. port battle fleet splitting).

Yes, the 1.5x BR isn't new - it failed earlier too. So why bring back an old tested and failed system? Don't get the idea behind it.

You are right when you say: "we get land!". But have you tested it?

We did. One Santissima is able to sail directly!!!! beneath the coast line and to turn there. She did not stranded there and there were also no shallow water around it. ( It's an island, there has to be shallow water at least near the beach) The system is not done yet and I am sure, it will improve over the time.

But it looks nice, more amazing and was necessary - SO why should we discuss the point?

I do have a problem with the following sentence:  "that quite a few people complaining the loudest do not know how instance creation and reinforcement works now" Actually, now I wonder if you know about it! Please share with us!

The only thing you said in your statement is "Wow, guys please watch! We got land" and nothing more. It is quite interesting how easy it is to say something, without saying something.

 

Wait, what? o.O

Am I reading that right?

Well, Bach is right - if you put it all on the scale, it didn't changed something big. It looks nice and you might be able to use it a bit to cut the escape routes. But if we come to the point, it actually just looks nice and has nothing to do with the ganking mechanic that is criticized right now.

EDIT: Skully! I like it  :D

Edited by Twig
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yesterday a 3 rate was attacked in front of a harbor by one pirate (suddenly )

the pirate tagged the 3 rate and within a 1.5 minute there where 7 pirates in battle

a uneven battle where my friend lost his 3rate 

 

but what actually happened was :

or they came out of the harbor (six pirate)

of out of a after battle screen in front of the harbor

or the 1.5 did not work

 

so in my opinion there is something wrong with:

 

1.the visiblity in front of a harbor is wrong

2. after battle screen has a wrong implementation

3.or the rating x1.5 does not work

 

 

solution i think 

pirates or gankers have to be visible in ow for 2 minutes and 20 sec before they can attack 

 

the aria around a harbor needs a couldowntime for more then 2 minutes or you have to sail for at least 2.20 minutes before you can attack after 1 minute visiblity before they can atttack

if that is implemented the battle tag timer is closed before the gankers have a succesfull gank /afterbattle screen attack

in the aria of a harbor

Edited by Thonys
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It's been a couple of weeks since the last patch and most folks have now had a good chance to test and form a valid opinion.  Here's mine.

 

Anti ganking mechanic isn't good. Seems It's annoying lots of folks who want social gaming and an unrestricted ability to sail and fight with friends. It's probably annoying more folks than those who were annoyed about being ganked pre patch.  I suspect most would prefer to go back to how things were and accept that in a sand box PVP game ganking will happen.  Personally, the anti ganking mechanic suits me fine when I'm hitting player trade ships on the US coast, but I have also been *very* frustrated  back in home waters, sailing out to meet a 7 man GB fleet in our own 7 man fleet.  Keeping station may indeed be a great idea, but when you have ships of varying speed, chasing a fleet over long distance, inevitably not everyone will be in the magic circle when the battle starts. Same for the enemy fleet. Instead of 7 vs 7 you have 3 vs 4, with a few guys who've stayed 40 mins in a chase unable to join.  I would happily forfeit the benefit the BR mechanic gives me personally so large fleet battles are possible again without it being a frustrating maths game. Still cannot attack a larger BR ship in a privateer!

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yesterday a 3 rate was attacked in front of a harbor by one pirate (suddenly )

the pirate tagged the 3 rate and within a 1.5 minute there where 7 pirates in battel 

a uneven battle where my friend lost his 3rate 

 

but what actually happened was 

or they cam out of the harbor (six pirate)

of out of a after battle screen in front of the harbor

or the 1.5 did not work

 

so in my opinion there is something wrong whit:

 

1.the visiblity in front of a harbor is wrong

2. afte battle screen has a wrong implementation

3.or the rating x1.5 does not work

 

pirates or gankers have to be visible before they can attack

 

the aria around a harbor needs a couldowntime for more then2 minutes or you have to sail for at least 2 minutes before you can attack after 1 minute visiblity before they can atttack

itf that is implemented the battle tag timer is closed before the gankers have a succesfull attack

in the aria of a harbor

 

What ships were the pirates using ?

 

FYI as long as the BR is not on the limit of 1.5 more ships can pile in.

 

The only quirk to the system is that if the rating is still 1.499999 you can throw ANY ship to the battle to reach 1.5, even a top BR.

 

Plus that story is not truthful regarding the invisibility. It was tested and there is no way it can happen. Your friend simply did not see them and any buddies did not see them.

 

Your friend got tagged into battle by one enemy. Then other enemies came out of port, waited for timeout invulnerability and then joined.

 

Your friend had no one around to help. Good riddance for another SOL sailing on its own. It really happens a lot more than you think.

 

Back to your suggestions of the 2 minutes timer.

I was suggesting this as well BUT now that I think more of it I am against it. It will unbalance the status quo between the hunting parties and the hunted - which is the very foundation of OW pvp - resulting in even more strange situations and chain ganking.

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I appreciate the desire to limit ganks. I personally, though, don't mind getting ganked. It is what it is. The ganks that I enjoy least are the massive ganks of 10 to 1. It just seems like overkill.

 

The consensus growing in our group of pvp'ers is that the 1.5 mechanic is a negative with good intentions. They have found the game to be less enjoyable and so play it less. The most vocal group in our clan is a group that likes to go out in a group of three. There is nothing abnormal about three ships hunting together. I would not call that a ganking group. The most vocal of this group is a fella that, from the time he left port to the time he returned, he sunk or captured over thirty British players by himself so no one could accuse him of being a ganker.

What has led to their lack of enjoyment is the fact that they always have to leave one of their friends out of the fight. Like many groups, they have a tackler. This guy chases the prey. So at the point of tag the battle is formed more often then not, away from their two friends. So the friends must join as reinforcements because they couldn't keep up in the chase. This leaves at least one of them out of the fight to sit there for the next 30 minutes while his buddies have all the fun. Neither he nor his buddies are happy about this.

So, you make one guy happy(the prey), even though he still sinks, while making three guys unhappy.

 

I suggest a BR restriction but up it from the current 1.5

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I fully concur that the 1.5 mechanic isn't improving gameplay at all.  I find it incredibly awkward and downright frustrating.  Godd intentions for sure.  Nobody likes being ganked, but on the other hand, if you have the ships, then you should be able to play.

 

-Ski

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It is player drive open sea pvp.  If you show up to a fight with carronades and he has longs and a faster ship; you are in trouble.  If you show up with a snow and he shows up with a Renomee; you are in trouble.  If you show up in one ship and he brings five friends; you are in trouble.  If you show up with five friends and he brings ten friends...

 

Why punish players for playing together and organizing?  Unrestricted open world PvP was the best part of this game.  Restrictions to tagging (especially this draconian) have ruined it.

 

No restrictions.

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Like many groups, they have a tackler. This guy chases the prey. So at the point of tag the battle is formed more often then not, away from their two friends. So the friends must join as reinforcements because they couldn't keep up in the chase. This leaves at least one of them out of the fight to sit there for the next 30 minutes while his buddies have all the fun. Neither he nor his buddies are happy about this.

 

Of course, because "tackling" to pin a player in OW time and space is an exploit that favors the side with numbers, giving them much more flexibility than the chase.  Removing this from the game is a huge improvement.  These 3 can sail together and join together, they just can't use the "tackling" exploit.

 

That said, I don't like the 1.5x reinforcement limit, but it cannot simply be removed without a different limit on exploiting the new positional spawn system.  If it is just removed or increased, you will see ganking just as it has always been, but now groups will be able to completely encircle prey, not just warp in as a mass behind.

 

An excellent solution has been proposed: grow the circle after instance creation so that staying out of the initial instance to join from a different position on the circle translates directly into increasing distance penalties in the instance.  Solves all the current problems without falling back to a system that was already deeply problematic (including the widespread acceptance that the "tackling" concept was legitimate and fair).

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Of course, because "tackling" to pin a player in OW time and space is an exploit that favors the side with numbers, giving them much more flexibility than the chase. Removing this from the game is a huge improvement. These 3 can sail together and join together, they just can't use the "tackling" exploit.

That said, I don't like the 1.5x reinforcement limit, but it cannot simply be removed without a different limit on exploiting the new positional spawn system. If it is just removed or increased, you will see ganking just as it has always been, but now groups will be able to completely encircle prey, not just warp in as a mass behind.

An excellent solution has been proposed: grow the circle after instance creation so that staying out of the initial instance to join from a different position on the circle translates directly into increasing distance penalties in the instance. Solves all the current problems without falling back to a system that was already deeply problematic (including the widespread acceptance that the "tackling" concept was legitimate and fair).

Just for clarification, using harassers, scouts or recon groups to slow down the movement of lighter armies so the bulk of your main army can catch them has been a valid and taught tactic of warfare since biblical times. Alexander was known to employ this to great effect after he aquired horse archers in his march to the east. It's not new and in a simulated war zone it's not an exploit. Edited by Bach
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Just for clarification, using harassers, scouts or recon groups to slow down the movement of lighter armies so the bulk of your main army can catch them has been a valid and taught tactic of warfare since biblical times. Alexander was known to employ this to great effect after he aquired horse archers in his march to the east. It's not new and in a simulated war zone it's not an exploit.

 

Yes, but here is how it works in reality:

 

1. your scouts can be used for information, and information can be used to maneuver your main force to a position of advantage

2. if they have sufficient combat power, your scouts can be used to engage the enemy to pin them in place while the main force maneuvers to a position of advantage.

 

The key point here is that if scouts operate alone ahead of the main force and are used to engage the enemy, they must fight alone until the main force comes up. The problem is that the factors that make your scouts good at #1 make them poorly-suited to #2, but were a non-factor before in the game.  Every group could roll with the lightest, weakest, fastest scout possible, use this to catch and pin any ship, then "warp" in the combat power to kill it that the scout lacked when in reality the scout should have had to fight it out alone for a long time.  This gave every advantage to groups over the solo player.  It was an exploit because battles are instances and time and speed on the OS is different.

 

The 1.5x BR reinforcement limit meant there was at least a trade-off to not joining as a group, but it's not the right trade-off.  The trade-off should be more distance the later you join, such that:

 

1. There is a risk involved in tackling with scouts rather than sailing together and joining as a cohesive fleet.

2. Sailing through the circle to reinforce rather than joining as soon as possible at the nearest edge should be a huge gamble, trading time and distance (and possibly missing the battle) for possible positional advantage (that may not even be exploitable due to the increased distance).

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This is also naval combat, not land combat.  And in real life there isn't a disconnect between an OW that runs at like 75x normal speed and a battle instance that runs at like 2x speed.

 

In real life, you show up late after the battle is over.  If OW tagging was done right, that ship that shows up late will have to sail an hour or more real time in the battle instance to get to the two ships fighting.  If you do that, then the BR and timer mechanics can be taken out.

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