Artillery Line of Sight

[Losenis]

I was playing a match with the confederacy against the union. I managed to push the union back to the immediate south of the town, and I was assuming that all I'd need to do is a slow and sure push to rout them.

 

Well it didn't work as intended. First I thought that maybe it was my own fault, but after a quick check I found out that my cannons were not firing. At all. Not a single one. It seemed that all of them were without a proper line of sight to the union troops, leaving them unable to fire. Even despite placing them in hills and the like, not a single cannon had a line of sight to a single union regiment. Even later on when an union regiment advanced forward from its frontline, not a single cannon had line of sight for it, when I'm sure it'd be certain that it'd have had so, so that ruled out the possibility that in a sad coincidence I just had bad luck.

 

 

Maybe it's a bug, maybe it's just bad luck on my part, but I'm still convinced that at least one of the cannons would've had line of sight to at least one union regiment.

 

That aside, something that this game would desperately need is a better topographic map. Maybe adding a slight colour overlay that gave a darker colour to lower ground and brighter to higher ground instead of just lines, so as to make the elevation instantly recognizable and avoid several embarrassing mistakes, like how I placed those cannons in seminary ridge.

 

Another thing that I'd like to know is how exactly is the line of sight mechanism handled. I've heard that the game is actually handled in 2D with several tricks that make it seem 3D, so the mechanism for line of sight is quite intriguing if it aims to work with 3D terrain.

 

 

Despite all of this, I want to say that this is a very good game and I thoroughly enjoy it. I had my hopes when I heard it was from the one who created the darthmods for Total War, and I was not disappointed.

[MacBlain]

I'm having trouble with this, too. Do friendlies block artillery fire, or what? I do a lot of little artillery adjustments. What can you see now? What can you see now? What can you see now?

[David Fair]

The game desperately needs an artillery targeting mechanism.

Friendly troops block artillery fire.

The target mechanism needs to work something like this:

Click on the battery to see if there are any enemy targets in the battery's current location.

No targets - move battery.

The target needs to show all of the enemy units that can be hit with a bright red target.

The target needs to show what cannot be hit because the battery is blocked by friendly troops with a pink target.

[Zelekendel]

Yes. Exactly. Artillery is such a pain to handle that I often ignore it. 

This also affects my brigades quite often - I see them under fire by enemy brigades (and I'm occupying the high ground) but my brigade isn't firing back - just sitting at 100% reload under fire. 

Hopefully this is a top priority.

 

Consolidating batteries into 400-odd strong artillery battalions is the way to make them more playable, too. We're playing with brigades, already, hence artilleries should also be at the correct scale. 

[Losenis]

I have just returned from another match where artillery that did not fire could've helped, if not saved my efforts. I am by no means implying that the artillery is at fault here, but my decisions are handicapped mostly by the elevation map itself that does not give enough information as it is. As I suggested earlier, a topographic map that gave a colour overlay to elevation added to the current elevation overlay would be very welcome. I can understand that my artillery may not be firing due to woods or allied infantry covering their firing line, or not having a proper firing solution, but when I can't immediately see a proper location replacement for the artillery, it breaks the game and adds a layer of artificial difficulty.

 

It's made even worse by the fact that the computer knows specifically where to place artillery in an instant (I am not complaining about that, though), which means that most of the time I'm facing both infantry and artillery while pretty much only having infantry on my side due to most if not all my artillery pieces not firing at all.

[David Fair]

Losenis,

Have you tried setting your artillery on "canister" and placing them on each flank of your infantry divisions?

Artillery generally does good service when deployed this way even if you can't figure out the field of fire in front of the battery.

[David Fair]

Zelekendel,

I'm not a fan of consolidated artillery brigades because:

1. They concentrate too much fire in too small a segment of the field,

2. If routed you lose too much fire power from a single event, and

3. I think there is a better mechanism to manage the artillery.

I'd like to be able to "attach" a battery to an infantry division. This would increase the close-range firepower of the infantry division without the problems outlined above. It would also be more historically representative or how ACW artillery fought.

[Losenis]

Losenis,

Have you tried setting your artillery on "canister" and placing them on each flank of your infantry divisions?

Artillery generally does good service when deployed this way even if you can't figure out the field of fire in front of the battery.

I have not, but I will try that to see how well it does.

[Zelekendel]

Losenis,

Have you tried setting your artillery on "canister" and placing them on each flank of your infantry divisions?

Artillery generally does good service when deployed this way even if you can't figure out the field of fire in front of the battery.

 

Good idea, but no good to an attacking force. 

 

Oh, and why are the cannons manhandled slowly everywhere? Did I miss a "limber up" command somewhere?

Off to check...

[CmdrMctoast]

I agree with this whole statement.

I'm not a fan of consolidated artillery brigades because:

1. They concentrate too much fire in too small a segment of the field,

2. If routed you lose too much fire power from a single event, and

3. I think there is a better mechanism to manage the artillery.

I'd like to be able to "attach" a battery to an infantry division. This would increase the close-range firepower of the infantry division without the problems outlined above. It would also be more historically representative or how ACW artillery fought.

 

An interesting idea as an option.

[blueakomoon]

So after playing continuously over the last couple of weeks, here are my conclusions about the way artillery operates now.

1.  Troops do block artillery from firing, especially directly over their heads.  This is correct historically as civil way shells were unreliable and gunners hated firing over the heads of their own troops for fire of friendly fire by accident.

2.  Man made structures also block firing lanes for artillery.  Again, historically accurate for obvious reasons.

3.  Artillery condition goes down with firing.  Think of it as its ammunition storage.  Batteries only have so much ammo at a time, so conserve the artillery until it is most effective.  I just stick all my batteries on shell and leave it.  Solid shot does so little damage its just not worth it.

BIGGEST PROBLEM

The area of the map between Seminary ridge and all ridges to the west work correctly.  Ridges block LOS, high ground allows longer range, etc etc.  But once you get south of town, the terrain contours are less defined, even with the new contours layer.  Thus the LOS program for artillery gives batteries much less LOS than they should have.  Example, stick a battery on the stone wall on cemetery ridge, and its LOS won't even reach to the Emmetsburg road, less than half what it should actually be able to see.  I think the problem is that the LOS program sees some of the open terrain types (fields, fences, crops) as man made structures that thus block LOS.  This would explain why you don't encounter this problem west of Gettysburg because the area between ridges is simple grass.

ADVICE

Fix the LOS program so that it reads wheat fields, crops, etc as grass rather than mad made structures.  This error is very damaging because all the fighting on days 2,3,4 all take place where right now, artillery is basically useless due to the LOS problems.

[thekev506]

The issues I've had with artillery are:

 

-The morale-condition link.  Poor condition draining morale and an inability to stop the cannons firing if they can see enemies means unless you hide your guns in defilade somewhere they will inevitably have horrible morale.

 

-LOS and 'cannon charges'.  It's difficult to tell when my guns have a clear shot on a target and they tend to target units not involved in the most immediate engagement, leaving my infantry with no support.  When I specifically direct my artillery to attack a closer unit they 'charge' them, walking in front of my line infantry and up to the enemy.  They'll follow a unit that retreats/goes into defilade also, which has cost me a lot of guns.

 

A SIMPLE FIX

Separate movement and attack for artillery!  Only a move command should make the cannons move - if they're unable to shoot at a target due to LOS have a 'blocked' message pop up quickly (having a separate one to show when your infantry is blocking would be even more useful.)

[Husserl]

We are still trying to find a way to solve these arty problems. Just to note that in the position shown in Losenis' OP the arty units from Lutheran Seminary and the Seminary Ridge have a clear LoS to some positions at the Cemetery sector. I am sure that these units had some shots but they stopped as soon as friendly units came up the high ground and approached to attack the Union frontline and/or the Union army redeployed falling back a bit from their initial positions as it is shown at Cemetery Hill). In this cases the arty units need to be redeployed if it is intended to keep on bombardment. 

[dm1985]

I completely agree. The artillery should not move if I try to have them attack a unit that they don't have a LOS on. Just have a quick X flash across the unit or something when someone tries to attack a unit, to indicate that unit is not in LOS. And have movement and attack commands separately for artillery.

 

The issues I've had with artillery are:

 

-The morale-condition link.  Poor condition draining morale and an inability to stop the cannons firing if they can see enemies means unless you hide your guns in defilade somewhere they will inevitably have horrible morale.

 

-LOS and 'cannon charges'.  It's difficult to tell when my guns have a clear shot on a target and they tend to target units not involved in the most immediate engagement, leaving my infantry with no support.  When I specifically direct my artillery to attack a closer unit they 'charge' them, walking in front of my line infantry and up to the enemy.  They'll follow a unit that retreats/goes into defilade also, which has cost me a lot of guns.

 

A SIMPLE FIX

Separate movement and attack for artillery!  Only a move command should make the cannons move - if they're unable to shoot at a target due to LOS have a 'blocked' message pop up quickly (having a separate one to show when your infantry is blocking would be even more useful.)

[hiner]

  Example, stick a battery on the stone wall on cemetery ridge, and its LOS won't even reach to the Emmetsburg road, less than half what it should actually be able to see.  I think the problem is that the LOS program sees some of the open terrain types (fields, fences, crops) as man made structures that thus block LOS.  This would explain why you don't encounter this problem west of Gettysburg because the area between ridges is simple grass.

ADVICE

Fix the LOS program so that it reads wheat fields, crops, etc as grass rather than mad made structures.  This error is very damaging because all the fighting on days 2,3,4 all take place where right now, artillery is basically useless due to the LOS problems.

 

I don't know if I'm reading your quote wrong but one can clearly see Emmitsburg Road from Seminary Ridge.  Yes there are small swales between but not LoS blocking worthy.

[Husserl]

I got a couple of screen about the issue:

 

 

From Seminary, the western slop of Cemetery  is visible and arty units are active.

 

 

From Cemetery there is a limited area visible on Seminary Ridge. There are some obstacles between but since they are on the (very light) slope perhaps they shouldn't block so much sight. We shall keep a note of that to see how we can improve it.

[hiner]

I got a couple of screen about the issue:

From Seminary, the western slop of Cemetery is visible and arty units are active.

From Cemetery there is a limited area visible on Seminary Ridge. There are some obstacles between but since they are on the (very light) slope perhaps they shouldn't block so much sight. We shall keep a note of that to see how we can improve it.

Well if you guys want, I spent 6 days in Gettysburg earlier this month. I'd be more than happy to share some of the pictures that I took.

[blueakomoon]

Well what I'm saying is that historically, the batteries on Cemetery ridge could fire and see all the way to Seminary ridge.  Yes, there is some slight ground swells in-between so troops could hide in those while out in the open, but that shouldn't stop the cannons from seeing all the way to Seminary Ridge and vice versa.  I think the problem is the contour lines.  Since the game has suck a gentle slope to Cemetery Ridge, the cannons have a short LOS.

[David Fair]

blueakomoon,

Keep in mind the topography today is not exactly like the topography at the time of the battle.  During WWII tanks were run all over the area that is now the park and changed things a bit.  

 

We know that on the left flank of Longstreet's charge on Day 3 that the left-most division got into a depression to the west of Emmitsburg Road where about an entire CSA division was out of harm's way from Union artillery and small arms fire.  These guys were some of the first to rout from Pickett's Charge - and there remains controversy about which troops were the first to turn back.

 

The trouble I see is related to granularity of the UGG map topography.  Artillery should be able to fire from Cemetery Ridge to Seminary Ridge as you point out above.  

The depression in the ground was important,  

But - if you make this depression big enough to hide an UGG division then it becomes a geographic feature that is too large on the UGG map - which is the situation with the current map.

 

It seems to me this is a game balance issue:

If you want the Union to hold the Culp's Hill, Cemetery Hill, Cemetery Ridge line then smooth the ground to let the Union artillery have a clear field of fire.

If you want the CSA to have a better chance at taking the Union lines then limit the fields of fire - as currently implemented.

 

I took a 6' orange flag with me to check out these positions.  There are still some places where I couldn't see my flag when on Cemetery Ridge - but again, it depends on which position you are in on Cemetery Ridge.  

Which gets us back to the granularity issues - topography is tricky.