Mulcaster

Thank you, Remus, for your kind comments. Over the past two years there have been a lot of excellent ideas on how to develop the economy so that it simulates the 18th century while still being playable. I suggest players and developers reread some of those threads. To clarify my ideas on supply and demand. I think nearly ALL supply should be player-produced. The only exceptions I would make are 7th rate ships and "cracked four pounders" which should be readily available from the AI to help beginning players get started. The only other exception would be some manufactured goods and luxuries imported from Europe which should only be available in trans-shipment ports (capitals and regional capitals) at high prices. These would be the same ports which would buy export commodities like sugar and tobacco. Players would make everything else. If something was not available, there would be an incentive for someone to begin producing it. Competitors would undercut high prices. Of course, for this to work the game needs a better way of conveying information to players. To keep the economy from crashing from insufficient demand would require the AI to provide "background" levels of demand. So every port would demand food, rum, textiles, and some manufactured goods and luxuries. But the amount of this demand would vary with the size of the port. So capitals and large cites would demand lots of everything, small outports not much. Goods would be "used up" by the port, how fast depending on its size, thus resetting demand. Prices would fluctuate, depending on supply and demand. An Indiaman full of rum would suppress further demand for rum in that port for quite a while, so prices would fall. If no merchant has come by recently, prices would be higher. Demand for ships, cannons, etc. would be from players. Although perhaps a player could get a "contract" from the admiralty to provide a set number of ships, components, etc. to the admiralty. The virtue of this is that, since no port is self-sufficient, trade would be required and rewarded. It would foster regular trade routes, and thus direct PvP players to areas to attack and defend.

I think the question is whether NA should be an historical game or a combat game. If it is a combat game, we don't need OW, we can go back to something like sea trials. If it is to be an historical game--and I think that is its real potential--then it needs to start simulating history as close as we can within the limits of good game play. In the history of the 18th century the economy is CENTRAL. Wars turned around economic advantage, battles were to raid, capture, or protect trade routes. Unfortunately, NA has developed backwards. Combat has been central and endlessly adjusted, while the economy is and has been an afterthought. To simulate the 18th century economy means supply and demand. I have argued since sea trials that production should be player-based with only enough demand supplied by the AI to keep things circulating. Various elements of the economy have been added--luxury items, trade goods, etc.--but without supply and demand it doesn't work. Shipbuilding is essential for the game, but should only be one part of the economy, not its central purpose. A well-rounded economy would allow players to build up trading empires and give PvP players lots of rich targets to raid or protect. To do this the game needs several things. It needs an open-loop system, as Bach says above. Trade between players needs to be facilitated, so changes in supply and demand can be quickly responded to. Deliveries and teleportation need to be eliminated or greatly curtailed to put commerce back on the sea. Nearly every port needs to demand nearly every consumer good, but demand has to fluctuate with supply so players have to look for markets. Games like Patrician have been doing this for many years. Demand for export commodities such as sugar and tobacco should be very low except in trans-shipment ports (capitals and regional capitals?) where demand and prices should always be very high. This simulates demand in Europe for certain commodities (sugar was like oil then, everybody wanted it). This would reward the player who wants to build up an export business but also tells pirates and enemies where his trade routes will be.

There are some good ideas here which try to address a basic problem the game has had since the beginning--what is the role of the player. All players are captains, but also everything else from diplomat to blacksmith. And until an admiralty structure is developed, all captains are de facto privateers. Leaving aside the question of having actual navies, the economy needs a lot of work. Instead of various professions, it might be better to think of players as owners. As owners players hire people to do the work while they manage the operation. This should take both money and both game and real time. Labour hours should be abandoned for actual duration. As was suggested on another thread, there should be a variety of production buildings, making meaningful supply chains. Labour and maintenance costs should be constant, and bankruptcy a real possibility (right now there is no risk in economic activity--lack of risk makes for dull play). To do this, the economy needs to be based on supply and demand and be player run.

This is a good idea, but it would take a fully developed economy to realize. Every town could have needs that have to be met through imports--food, cloth, luxury items (the game already has a good variety), etc. If they are not met in sufficient quantity for the population, their happiness would go down. When it gets low enough, they would revolt. Players would have to supply these good, which would give economic-oriented players a lot to do. It would also make blockades and cutting supply lines a meaningful tactic for PvP players.

Removing AI may be fine for western Europe or eastern North America, but those of us in other time zones need the AI. In the time zone where I live, (and the map area where I choose to play) I only SEE another player about once a week. While we all hope that after release many more will join the game, the reality of demographics means that the ratio of players will not change much, even if numbers increase.

I would like to be able to hire merchant ships as well as warships. I would rather BE an escort than HIRE an escort. Would it be possible to sail with our own ships, that is, could I make up a "fleet" of my own merchant ships and own escort ships?

I think that "neutrals" (and pirate ports as well) should be replaced by "open" ports. These represent corrupt officials who will look the other way for a bribe (or a percentage of the profits). This would allow smugglers and pirates to "launder" their contraband. In game terms, if a captain tries to enter a port that is not nominally part of their nation but is in fact "open" they would have to pay a bribe. The size of the bribe could vary, depending upon the status or reputation of the captain. Pirates or those of low reputation would have to pay more. But this would give them a place to sell their cargoes, no matter how they got them. For example, Marin is "nominally" a French port but is in fact "open." A French merchant could sail there as normal. A British player (or a pirate or other nationality) could sail there and sell his or her goods, but only after they pay a bribe. Smugglers have a place to sell their contraband. "Honest" merchants can buy goods there that may not be available elsewhere.

There are a lot of good ideas here. One thing you overlooked was the importance of export commodities in the 18th century, especially sugar and tobacco. Most of the islands would be covered in plantations raising these crops for export to Europe. Players should be able to buy or build plantations and ship the commodities to a designated export port (probably the capital), at least until a Europe map is added in the future. The return trip would bring manufactured goods in from Europe. Disrupting this trade, and highjacking valuable cargoes, would give a focus to privateers and piracy. This, of course, would require that when a ship is captured its cargo is captured with it. Smuggling was even more important than you suggest. In the 18th century every country had a mercantile system which tried to prohibit trade in the colonies except with the "mother country." It didn't work all that well and created enormous black markets. Smuggling became a way of life. One way to handle this in the game would be to change all the "neutral" and "pirate" ports to "open" ports where corrupt officials would look the other way for a bribe (or a percentage of the profit). The size of the bribe could vary, depending on the status or reputation of the merchant. Pirates would pay more, but have a place to "launder" their contraband. In addition to demand created by player and NPC industries, each port should have demand for food, rum, textiles, luxuries and manufactured goods based on the size of the population. This would both stimulate trade and give a point to blockading a port. Blockade running would become profitable.

I personally would like to see the question of war, alliances, etc. handled at the meta level by the developers, since players represent captains in the Caribbean, not politicians in Europe. There is, however, a substantial faction of players who want these questions to be handled by the players. If the developers decide to go in that direction, tatannn's ideas would be a good way of doing it.

An early French Admiral: Pierre Le Moyne d'Iberville 1661-1706 born in Canada, captured Hudson's Bay, Newfoundland, and Nevis from the British, never lost a battle

A mercantile economy would create lots of opportunity for gameplay. There could be a strong European demand for sugar and a few other commodities, while Europe would be a major source of manufactured goods. Rather than an abstract auction house, these cargoes should have to be transported "off map" to and from Europe,creating lots of opportunity to escort and raid convoys. Similarly, each port should have its own market-place (with its own supply and demand) so goods and commodities would have to be transported. Trading companies could develop ports into their own bases, taking over production as well as transport. While guild-based trading companies belonging to the same nation would be on the "same side" they would certainly engage in economic warfare with each other (and open war with companies of enemy nations). They might even bribe pirates to harass a competitor. And a by-product of mercantilism (and later Napoleon's continental system) was to create an enormous black market. Smuggling would be a big part of the game for pirate and company alike, while companies and navy squadrons would establish patrols to try to enforce their monopolies.

There are some good ideas here, but a lot depends on the focus of the game, i.e. what role do players have. If we are captains (and a few admirals) then much of the economy and higher level politics (e.g. war and peace) would be decided by national governments and therefore would be "out of our hands." I would see guilds or clans as representing trading companies or squadrons of the navy. That would mean that the AI (or moderators), representing the King, would decide, for example, that Britain makes peace with France and declares war on Spain. As captains we do our duty and fight the King's enemies. The economy would give players more scope, but this was the age of mercantilism and therefore had many restrictions on who one could trade with. A big part of the game's economy and crafting will, of necessity, focus around providing ships and equipment but if the game is to be historical, the engine of the economy will be sugar. In the 18th century sugar was like oil is now--everybody wanted it and only a few places had it. Control of the sugar islands was the focus of most of the warfare in the Caribbean, and therefore should be much of the focus of the game.

Excellent ideas Prater. We could have national (or regional or guild) newspapers edited by players and published in the forum. That would increase immersion and over time give us a "history" of the game.

A well-developed crafting and trade system is essential for "realism." In the 18th century navies existed to protect and expand trade, or to disrupt that of their enemies. The big trading companies not only had their own factories and farms, but their own armies and fleets and often fought their own wars. I would like to see a system where every port has needs (more than just ships and cannon) that can only be met through trade. "Merchant" players could build their own trading companies, privateers could prey on them, and "navy" players protect them--something for every style of play.

I think crew loss would have to be linked to crew quality. An experienced crew would be quicker with the sails, reload faster, etc. Losses could be replaced,but only with a less experienced crew. Losers in a battle might be able to return with a full crew, but that crew would be less experienced. Victors in a battle would have crew losses, but they would have benefits from being more experienced. Of course, there would have to be a formula for what percentage of new recruits would lower quality by what amount.