Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
Primus

Buy contracts are ruining the market

Recommended Posts

Primus    42

One of the major problems and frustrations with the market shortages is the people buying up resources via contracts.

 

The problem is that people setup buy orders buying up all the daily produced resources at an undisclosed amounts. This allows people to setup orders leave the ports and come back at a later time to pick up what they bought and setup sell offers at insane ammounts from what they bought it for. This is creating shortages of major resources. It does not make sense to have the buy contracts if it is going to be abused in this way.

 

Also, this allows for enemy nations to transfer money to alt characters that buy up all the resources as well (ie, a Pirate player has a USA alt account, trades money with that account and sets up buy contracts for all major resources (ie coal, fir and iron), sails it to a neutral port aand sails away with the resources to the pirate faction). This defeats the port capturing system. Im not saying this example is actually happening, but you can see the possibility of this being exploited.

 

Also the buy contracts removes any need for traders to have outposts at the ports they have contracts in. This of course circumvents the need for pricey outposts.

 

Therefore I propose either one or two of the following scenarios:

- the removal of buy contracts all together

- limiting a player to a certain amount of buy contracts (ie 2) as well as sell contracts (ie 5)

- Limit the buy contracts to only manufactured goods that are needed for crafting ships (ie. fir frame parts, crafting notes, Tar) 

 

If something is not done about this problem, the manufacturing of ships and upgrades will become impossible at higher levels. With the removal or limitations on buy contracts a large factor with regards to supply shortages will start becoming a thing of the past, as it makes it more difficult for people to exploit the current economy system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Galileus    1,107

I am a fan of different solution:

 

- There is a limit on how much a contract can get. Even if you set a contract at 1000 units, you get max 100 a day (and possibly less) and need ti wait for the contract to finish

- You don't set a buy price. Buy price is set for you, depending on production of the town and amount bought.

- Therefore resources are spread between all the players, not just the richest ones

- At least 50% of produced goods ends up on the market and is NOT sent to contracts. That way the guy who actually sails around and looks for trade has something to do.

- If the warehouse of a town (storage cap) is maxed out, additional resources can be sold to contracts (more than 100 a day and more than 50% of production)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Konali89    547

Contracts are not killing the market.  Other things do. Let me explain.

At the moment as a crafter we have to fish in the same pool with recources with traders.  Traders buy up stuff and dump it onto the markets, whereas it could have been used to ship building.

Also one mayor factor at the moment that is killing the markets is, the production and consume numbers are still pre- EA phase.

 

Contracts work at the moment, BUt it only works if you know the system in and out and do not use it in ports that have high player density.

Also one of the biggest downsides that i always have seen from this contract system is that only 1 guy gets the stuff. It would be smoother if instead of everything that is being produced by the ports is going to the contracts immediatly, it would be better if stuff would either be go 50/50 between contracts and port. Of if there is a possibilty that instead of 1 winner, it can be made so, that the 5 highest bidders get a piece of the cake.

 

In the end, i have heard rumours about a player driven economy, hell yeah. But untill then, it is clear this system has drawbacks and flaws.

 

- Create items / goods that are being used for trading purposes, so that the traders and crafters can work together instead of against eachother.

- Possibly change the outcome of the current contract mechanics. 50/50 system ( 50% to the contracts and to fill up the port) Or divide it amongst the top 5 highest bidders.

 

There are ways to make it so, it is not as hard to get a piece of the cake. Together we can do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stix    86

One of the major problems and frustrations with the market shortages is the people buying up resources via contracts.

 

The problem is that people setup buy orders buying up all the daily produced resources at an undisclosed amounts. This allows people to setup orders leave the ports and come back at a later time to pick up what they bought and setup sell offers at insane ammounts from what they bought it for. This is creating shortages of major resources. It does not make sense to have the buy contracts if it is going to be abused in this way..

 

Buy orders are not "undisclosed amounts" when you go in to a town what ever the "sell" price is, is what the highest buy order is.  So if the sell price for iron is 100 and you put a buy contract for 105 and then hit refresh you will see that the "sell" price for iron has changed to 105 and you will get all of that resource.

 

The system isn't broken, it's driving conquest, because at the moment you need as many iron/oak producing towns as you can get!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tarkin1980    76

I just can't see the pros of having these contracts in the game. Only the huge cons. Remove them completely and make people actually sail their trade ship to the source port and be there at the right time if they want resources. No automated scripts doing for players what they realistically should be doing themselves.

Why don't we have automated scripts to grind combat xp for us while we sleep? Because that would be ridiculous. So why isn't it ridiculous when it comes to trading? The answer is that it IS!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Galileus    1,107

I just can't see the pros of having these contracts in the game. Only the huge cons. Remove them completely and make people actually sail their trade ship to the source port and be there at the right time if they want resources. No automated scripts doing for players what they realistically should be doing themselves.

Why don't we have automated scripts to grind combat xp for us while we sleep? Because that would be ridiculous. So why isn't it ridiculous when it comes to trading? The answer is that it IS!

 

Well, we have instant battles. So there is that. It's the same thing - don't have time to go look for PvP, plop a battle. Same with contracts.

 

To make a good trade run you need hours of time. Not all people have that time. These people can plop a passive contract and still enjoy crafting or trading, on their own time. Idea is sound, and before it happens - as soon as someone mentions "no time, don't play" I'm calling in the mods. I'm sick of that attitude.

 

The idea is sound, the implementation is not. Contracts should be a inferior way of doing things - if someone has the time to go around, he should profit much, much more. Contracts should be the out for people who can't or don't want to do so, and are willing to wait a week instead of doing a 7h trade run. As is however it is the people who prefer to pop contracts that not only profit - but suffocate the market doing so.

 

I honestly believe that changes proposed by me will not only reward explorers, but leave the way out for people who want to use passive contracts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tarkin1980    76

Well, we have instant battles. So there is that. It's the same thing - don't have time to go look for PvP, plop a battle. Same with contracts.

 

To make a good trade run you need hours of time. Not all people have that time. These people can plop a passive contract and still enjoy crafting or trading, on their own time. Idea is sound, and before it happens - as soon as someone mentions "no time, don't play" I'm calling in the mods. I'm sick of that attitude.

 

The idea is sound, the implementation is not. Contracts should be a inferior way of doing things - if someone has the time to go around, he should profit much, much more. Contracts should be the out for people who can't or don't want to do so, and are willing to wait a week instead of doing a 7h trade run. As is however it is the people who prefer to pop contracts that not only profit - but suffocate the market doing so.

 

I honestly believe that changes proposed by me will not only reward explorers, but leave the way out for people who want to use passive contracts.

 

Well, I don't agree that instant battles are the same thing. You still have to play the battle, make the right decisions, and WIN it to reap the rewards. Not just click a button and wait.

 

Most importantly, though, you're not free to do other things during the time it takes to fight the battle. People who place contracts can travel, fight, craft and level up while their robot traders take care of the market. I can't hire a robot captain to level up my combat ranks while I go exploring or visit ports looking for resources. It is nowhere close to the same thing.

 

That said, sure, there are probably multiple ways to implement contracts without destroying the market for the non hardcore players. I'm just not sure I want them. But we shall see, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Galileus    1,107

By the nature of trading, it is "click to trade". You cannot make that comparison and expect it to hold, honestly.

 

I can watch a movie while travelling. And I don't even need to stop while I buy or sell. I don't need to take part in the travel. Trading is passive by the definition.

 

Does it mean trading should be removed from the game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stix    86

I just can't see the pros of having these contracts in the game. Only the huge cons. Remove them completely and make people actually sail their trade ship to the source port and be there at the right time if they want resources. No automated scripts doing for players what they realistically should be doing themselves.

Why don't we have automated scripts to grind combat xp for us while we sleep? Because that would be ridiculous. So why isn't it ridiculous when it comes to trading? The answer is that it IS!

 

It's quite simple really... It's to create price wars which in turn drives conquest.  If you could simply "buy" the goods in a port, what price should they sell for?  It's NPC setting price so it won't be dynamic.  At the moment you can put a buy order to buy iron at 500G and you will get it all because no one else will pay that much.  It's not a perfect or easy system but it works.  It is not that different from the eve system which has arguably the best ingame economy of any mmo ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nico Ventura    39

Contracts are not killing the market.  Other things do. Let me explain.

At the moment as a crafter we have to fish in the same pool with recources with traders.  Traders buy up stuff and dump it onto the markets, whereas it could have been used to ship building.

Also one mayor factor at the moment that is killing the markets is, the production and consume numbers are still pre- EA phase.

 

Contracts work at the moment, BUt it only works if you know the system in and out and do not use it in ports that have high player density.

Also one of the biggest downsides that i always have seen from this contract system is that only 1 guy gets the stuff. It would be smoother if instead of everything that is being produced by the ports is going to the contracts immediatly, it would be better if stuff would either be go 50/50 between contracts and port. Of if there is a possibilty that instead of 1 winner, it can be made so, that the 5 highest bidders get a piece of the cake.

 

In the end, i have heard rumours about a player driven economy, hell yeah. But untill then, it is clear this system has drawbacks and flaws.

 

- Create items / goods that are being used for trading purposes, so that the traders and crafters can work together instead of against eachother.

- Possibly change the outcome of the current contract mechanics. 50/50 system ( 50% to the contracts and to fill up the port) Or divide it amongst the top 5 highest bidders.

 

There are ways to make it so, it is not as hard to get a piece of the cake. Together we can do it.

Actually some traders and crafters monopolise the market.

This is harmfull for the nation, prices of goods are going up, and so also the selling prices of the ships.

Putting a ratio of 50/50 between contract and shop won't change anything. That crafter or trader that put a contract, will simply also buy the stock of the shop.

If enough goods are available, contracts are not needed, or should take a small amount of the producted good; 50/50 is far to generous.

Ports should also stop consuming goods needed for crafting ships. So traders could still earn money when selling to a port where there is a lot of production, but at least all goods will be used in crafting, which will be good for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's quite simple really... It's to create price wars which in turn drives conquest.  If you could simply "buy" the goods in a port, what price should they sell for?  It's NPC setting price so it won't be dynamic.  At the moment you can put a buy order to buy iron at 500G and you will get it all because no one else will pay that much.  It's not a perfect or easy system but it works.  It is not that different from the eve system which has arguably the best ingame economy of any mmo ever.

 

The problem is that the system, while similar to that in Eve, has some very important differences that make it far less effective.

 

Notably:

 The raw materials are entirely "created" by the NPC ports, they are not mined/ harvested/ refined etc. by players, the way they are in Eve.

  Only the top contract is available for viewing/ using, Eve market shows all buy/ sell contracts available in a given area. This is a rather important difference as it allows competitors to outbid/ undercut, which is very much at the heart of a player driven economy. Not to mention the contracts can be viewed from a distance (ie you could see the buy/ sell orders available in an entire region, not just one port). this would not be in keeping with the essence of Naval Action however, and not something I'd recommend.

 

As more people join this game, and servers start filling up, this is definitely going to put a lot of folks off, as there would be little scope  for someone new to trading (or building for that matter) to compete with, or even function at all, against established players/ cartels.

Honestly I don't think the market system is complex enough at this stage of development to support the contract system as it is at the moment. Once (if) raw materials are "created" (for want of a better word) by players, perhaps through plantations/ mines/ factories, and so on, then contracts would make more sense. For now however I'd like to see them removed, or at most, be only available for trading in "created" goods, namely ship/ upgrade components.

 

In this way the smaller outfits, or single players, would at least have a chance to carve out a small niche for themselves, while still not being any great threat to the profits of the larger organised clans. Time spent in-game and sailing would be rewarded with better profits, and by extension the risks involved to those moving larger quantities (assuming a PvP server) would also be greater, requiring more team-work. The teleport system would also need to be looked at in conjunction with this (as it is being as far as I can see), in order to be harder to exploit for trading purposes.

 

I don't know how bad this situation is getting on the PvP servers, but it's already making itself known on the PvE server (particularly so if, like me, you are a pirate player and have restricted access to neutral ports). It's definitely hard to be a builder when pretty much your only source of raw materials are the random drops from AI trading ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tarkin1980    76

By the nature of trading, it is "click to trade". You cannot make that comparison and expect it to hold, honestly.

 

I can watch a movie while travelling. And I don't even need to stop while I buy or sell. I don't need to take part in the travel. Trading is passive by the definition.

 

Does it mean trading should be removed from the game?

 

Not sure if this is even worth replying to, because it's incredibly inane, but allright.

 

Yes you click to do everything in the game. That's not the point. The point is that for everything else in the game, you have to click at the right time and the right place to succeed. Aiming your guns is a good example. If you just click, you miss. It is what we would call "playing the game".

 

To completely vacuum the market of all available iron and oak, however, you don't need to do that. You just place a contract at your leisure and go on your merry way. You don't need to be at the right place at the right time to buy that load of iron as it comes in. Surely, you must be able to see the difference? It is, in a way, like clicking to fire your guns without having to aim them. Or a bot that grinds missions for me while I sleep, allowing me to come back later to reap the rewards.

 

This is why I am in principle against contracts. I'm against aids that play the game for you, by principle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Galileus    1,107

This is why I am in principle against contracts. I'm against aids that play the game for you, by principle.

 

Indeed. We should make you play a mini-game that makes sure that you buy them goods with skill, and not with gold!

 

Captain, I beg of you - stop with this silly comparison. These are different play styles. And soon we will have player run production, with mines and plantations doing what you basically say is against the principale.

 

How about auto skipper?

 

How about repair not being a mini game?

 

How about the game actually picking up resources from your storage on its own while crafting?

 

All of these are what is called "quality of life improvements". And all of these mean that to some point the game plays itself more than it absolutely needs to. There is no possibility of "disallowing aids in a game". Because the game is defined by the aids. The aids decide what you do and what is done by the game. It's the act of balancing and moving borders. One game will be more arcade, one will be more realistic. They will have different amount of aids, but they will all have them. Always. Without parts of the game playing themselves gaming is impossible.

 

Even mine swapper shows you the part of the field that has no mines on it. It's not because it's a casual game. It's because having to do that manually would make bigger boards completely unplayable to people, who would otherwise love them. Does it make the game easier? No - it makes the game more fun to play.

 

And so do contracts. They allow an out for people who cannot sail from port to port HOPING that they get there in the right moment. And mind you - there is no way of telling if you will get there in the right moment. They won't get ahead of you, they will have to wait longer and will get less. But they will get to play.

 

You in the meantime say they are not allowed to play - because it's beneath you to play with these people who cannot afford the time? And mind you - it doesn't hurt you in any way. The very idea behind my solution is that these people get the leftovers. YOUR leftovers. Things you don't need. And yet you refuse them, because - principles? What are these principles worth if in the end they don't improve your game, but destroy other's?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
VonVolks    212

I think contacts definitely need some work.

Also the fact that cancelling contacts (claiming a contract with zero goods bought so far) also loses you all the money for that contract is crazy.

I'm flat broke from making loads of contacts only to get outbid by another trader later on. Result is I get no goods and also lose all my money!

To me that makes no sense. If the contract is unfulfilled I should get back my money minus the cost charged me to make the contract.

It's very unclear when goods are produced so how to get goods in ports with a few active buyers seems to be a total lottery?

Edited by VonVolks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Primus    42

Even an aspect of just allowing players to upgrade ports to increase production can help as well, as it will require players to go out and trade with other nations via neutral free towns. That is what trade is. As stated above the aspect of pressing two buttons and going offline is not playing the game.

 

Another possibility for the buy contracts is to increase the price on those orders so that direct buying makes it unprofitable to buy it all up and setting it up on the market again. However I fear this case would only increase the prices of resources even further.

 

As for the 50/50, im honestly not a fan because there only needs to be a few contracts out there and all the supplies would be gone again.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Galileus    1,107

As for the 50/50, im honestly not a fan because there only needs to be a few contracts out there and all the supplies would be gone again.  

 

How? If 50% goes to port to being sold, it cannot be grabbed by contracts. This is the idea, there is never less than 50% of production directed to active trade in ports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tarkin1980    76

Indeed. We should make you play a mini-game that makes sure that you buy them goods with skill, and not with gold!

 

Captain, I beg of you - stop with this silly comparison. These are different play styles. And soon we will have player run production, with mines and plantations doing what you basically say is against the principale.

 

How about auto skipper?

 

How about repair not being a mini game?

 

How about the game actually picking up resources from your storage on its own while crafting?

 

All of these are what is called "quality of life improvements". And all of these mean that to some point the game plays itself more than it absolutely needs to. There is no possibility of "disallowing aids in a game". Because the game is defined by the aids. The aids decide what you do and what is done by the game. It's the act of balancing and moving borders. One game will be more arcade, one will be more realistic. They will have different amount of aids, but they will all have them. Always. Without parts of the game playing themselves gaming is impossible.

 

Even mine swapper shows you the part of the field that has no mines on it. It's not because it's a casual game. It's because having to do that manually would make bigger boards completely unplayable to people, who would otherwise love them. Does it make the game easier? No - it makes the game more fun to play.

 

And so do contracts. They allow an out for people who cannot sail from port to port HOPING that they get there in the right moment. And mind you - there is no way of telling if you will get there in the right moment. They won't get ahead of you, they will have to wait longer and will get less. But they will get to play.

 

You in the meantime say they are not allowed to play - because it's beneath you to play with these people who cannot afford the time? And mind you - it doesn't hurt you in any way. The very idea behind my solution is that these people get the leftovers. YOUR leftovers. Things you don't need. And yet you refuse them, because - principles? What are these principles worth if in the end they don't improve your game, but destroy other's?

 

It is clear that you are more interested in nit picking than in seeing the problem. Also, if you are going to force opinions on me which I don't have, and have never voiced, then I don't see the point of this. Others who are also against contracts may have those ideas and opinions about other players. That doesn't mean that I do. Please refrain from doing that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ledinis    345

Make it so that you actually have to carry gold coins (the actual ingame currency) in your ship to be able to buy something in different ports, and suddenly all those monopoly contract buyers that place 200k gold on contracts each day to dry the ports will disappear or become quite a tasty treat for pirates :)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ayamo    1

I think contacts definitely need some work.

Also the fact that cancelling contacts (claiming a contract with zero goods bought so far) also loses you all the money for that contract is crazy.

I'm flat broke from making loads of contacts only to get outbid by another trader later on. Result is I get no goods and also lose all my money!

To me that makes no sense. If the contract is unfulfilled I should get back my money minutes the cost of charged me to make the contract.

It's very unclear when goods are produced so how to get goods in ports with a few active buyers seems to be a total lottery?

 

You might want to F11 (bug report) that. When I claim buy contracts that are unfulfilled I get my money back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Diceman    148

One of the major problems and frustrations with the market shortages is the people buying up resources via contracts.

The problem is that people setup buy orders buying up all the daily produced resources at an undisclosed amounts. This allows people to setup orders leave the ports and come back at a later time to pick up what they bought and setup sell offers at insane ammounts from what they bought it for. This is creating shortages of major resources. It does not make sense to have the buy contracts if it is going to be abused in this way.

Also, this allows for enemy nations to transfer money to alt characters that buy up all the resources as well (ie, a Pirate player has a USA alt account, trades money with that account and sets up buy contracts for all major resources (ie coal, fir and iron), sails it to a neutral port aand sails away with the resources to the pirate faction). This defeats the port capturing system. Im not saying this example is actually happening, but you can see the possibility of this being exploited.

Also the buy contracts removes any need for traders to have outposts at the ports they have contracts in. This of course circumvents the need for pricey outposts.

Therefore I propose either one or two of the following scenarios:

- the removal of buy contracts all together

- limiting a player to a certain amount of buy contracts (ie 2) as well as sell contracts (ie 5)

- Limit the buy contracts to only manufactured goods that are needed for crafting ships (ie. fir frame parts, crafting notes, Tar)

If something is not done about this problem, the manufacturing of ships and upgrades will become impossible at higher levels. With the removal or limitations on buy contracts a large factor with regards to supply shortages will start becoming a thing of the past, as it makes it more difficult for people to exploit the current economy system.

I support the removal of buy contracts!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SKurj.    151

Buy contracts reward the rich, and hurt the little guy trying to get involved in trading.  I am on more than most.. and the number of new players that come on asking how to get started in trading is huge... yet it is the steepest learning curve in the game right now imo.

 

Buy contracts that consume what the port produces have to go.  If they must stay in the game allow them to only be filled by players, not the port npc production.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think contacts definitely need some work.

Also the fact that cancelling contacts (claiming a contract with zero goods bought so far) also loses you all the money for that contract is crazy.

I'm flat broke from making loads of contacts only to get outbid by another trader later on. Result is I get no goods and also lose all my money!

To me that makes no sense. If the contract is unfulfilled I should get back my money minutes the cost of charged me to make the contract.

It's very unclear when goods are produced so how to get goods in ports with a few active buyers seems to be a total lottery?

 

 

You should be claiming empty contracts, this gives you back the money and any items for that contract.

 

 

Notably:

 The raw materials are entirely "created" by the NPC ports, they are not mined/ harvested/ refined etc. by players, the way they are in Eve.

  Only the top contract is available for viewing/ using, Eve market shows all buy/ sell contracts available in a given area. This is a rather important difference as it allows competitors to outbid/ undercut, which is very much at the heart of a player driven economy. Not to mention the contracts can be viewed from a distance (ie you could see the buy/ sell orders available in an entire region, not just one port). this would not be in keeping with the essence of Naval Action however, and not something I'd recommend.

 

As more people join this game, and servers start filling up, this is definitely going to put a lot of folks off, as there would be little scope  for someone new to trading (or building for that matter) to compete with, or even function at all, against established players/ cartels.

Honestly I don't think the market system is complex enough at this stage of development to support the contract system as it is at the moment. Once (if) raw materials are "created" (for want of a better word) by players, perhaps through plantations/ mines/ factories, and so on, then contracts would make more sense. For now however I'd like to see them removed, or at most, be only available for trading in "created" goods, namely ship/ upgrade components.

 

 
The problem is not the buy/sell contracts, the problem is the resources are generated by the ports, at certain times. . Once production is more random the buying and selling of goods will be much better. I actually think your first point is the most important. We need more market data available, that would help crafters and traders make more informed decisions. 
Edited by Jack Feathersword

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Renset    4

Why not limit the buy/sell contracts to manufactured good.  This allows for the crafters to have access to the resources needed to lvl their skills. 

Traders can make money on the buy/sell contracts for parts.

Crafters will be more willing to purchase these crafted parts as the labor hours to make higher end ships becomes progressively larger.

 

this allows for the crafting community to thrive and player economy to be based off of player production not npc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ajffighter86    497

I think there are not enough traders in this game and I think it is because getting gold is such a joke. You get gold just for keying someone's ship.

 

If people actually had to do a few trade runs now and then to keep their wallets full (not all the time because I understand some people find that aspect of the game boring), then it would solve much of the supply/demand issue.

Edited by ajffighter86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×