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Carriages and NPC ship pricing

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admin    28,101

Hello Captains.

 

 

Carriages

We have introduced carriages recently to provide better and realistic ship price growth based on the number of cannons.

 

To simplify descriptions in game carriage means: gun tackles and ropes, gun port preparation, carriage itself, wheels and all supporting materials. We are getting some feedback that for some vessels carriages now can reach 70% of the price which is not proper. 

 

We are planning to adjust materials needed for the carriages to reduce their price to more historical levels. And adjust the prices of ships accordingly as well. 

 

 

NPC Buying

You can sell crafted ships to NPC buyers in ports if players are not interested in your goods.

We have lowered NPC buying prices some time ago to reduce the inflation and ability to make a lot of money crafting ships. But perhaps we lowered it too much. Please share your experiences on crafting ships for selling them to NPC. How profitable or not profitable it is? What are your suggestions on changes.

 

 

PS. Crafting notes. As promised soon we will be implementing low level crafting notes that will make making exceptional light ships more viable. 

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Quineloe    1,135

are NPC buying prices supposed to be a safety net so you don't end up with an utterly worthless ship if no player wants it, ie your first trader's Lynx you make for crafting exp? Or are they supposed to be a viable alternative to still make profit from selling to them?

 

I'm looking forward to lower crafting notes. One for each rate would be great to make quality crafting of almost every ship viable

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ironhammer500    162

I need to work out as to how much stuff costs but i think if the resources were maybe a bit more abundant or more production/consumption rates. I recently moved to a quiet spot on the map where no players are so the prices were about medium, I think either npc prices or resources the basic ones for making ships needs to be cheaper Iron for me seems to expensive and the biggest issue right now. Even with the fix it still feels to low. You need at least 90% of the npc sale price just  to build a basic lynx.

 

Problem is Iron ore being expensive i think or being used so much. I think i need to go away and do a proper spreadsheet on ship building including gun carriages. 

However i do like the idea of spending more for a Warship then a trader.

 

 

Problem with starting out with crafting is the ships are worse then the basic cutter.

Edited by ironhammer500

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eriks    179

Ship breaking should be more lucrative for materials in particular in regards to things like gun carriages.

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Pedroig    4

Hiya admin, quick feedback, will tie into a different thread I will start in a bit when I have time:

 

Stop allowing NPC's to buy ships period, or sell them for that matter.  Someone buys a ship that nobody wants, well that should be a discouraging factor in building said ship.  Course there are only a couple of items to craft and get positive Labour Hours/Exp ratios, but that is another discussion as well.  Most games there is not much profit to be made grinding crafting, no reason it shouldn't be the same here really.

 

Crafting and Trading need to be treated as two different entities, and there needs to be a hard break between the player controlled economy and the NPC influenced economy.  What is in game now is beyond broke and is unsustainable at present levels, scaling it is going to be more headache then it may be worth.   The trading part will be pretty easy with the current mechanics in game.  The crafting part is going to require something different on the resource side without too adversely effecting how the current system works, though there do needs to be some tweaks to it as well.

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upen    5

Currently a grey quality Oak Brig takes by my very rough estimate:

109 Oak Logs

30 Fir Logs

3 Pine Logs

1 Lignum Vitae Log

55 Hemp

23 Stone Blocks

258 Iron Ore

258 Coal

 

By the prices I paid for these goods, including some very good prices from sailing way out of friendly territory, it cost me around 45,000 to make this brig, of which over 30,000 was the carriages. With prices of goods from close to home it would probably have been over 50,000. To get decent prices on goods you need to do a lot of sailing, probably 60+ minutes to gather goods assuming you use a teleport to return to wherever you're crafting and then you need to sink like 40% of your daily labor hours (200%+ if you want a higher quality boat) into this one ship.

 

Humans seem willing to pay around 45k for a grey brig, which is crazy since you could buy a grey snow from the AI for less than 60k and that is a much better ship. The AI is willing to pay 28,420 which doesn't even come close to covering the cost of the carriages, let alone the rest of the parts, 1+ hours of gameplay and 500+ labor hours. 

 

Prices for goods have to come down or availability has to go way up. The amount of goods needed to make a warship, especially lower quality ships like a brig has to come waaay down. I should take a slight loss (20%?) selling to the AI and I should be able to make a profit selling to humans. As it is I need to sell to humans to come close to just breaking even and I usually still sell at a loss. 

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ironhammer500    162

Yea the carriages is a nice add on to warships compared to traders but i feel they make ships far to expensive to invest into building, the npc resale prices could be higher for combat ships at least 10% profit  for medium resource prices and 5% for high should be worked out.

 

I know we are encouraged to buy from players but even a green ship will cost a lot and players will simply buy the npc ships.

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maturin    5,454

 

 

We are planning to adjust materials needed for the carriages to reduce their price to more historical levels. And adjust the prices of ships accordingly as well. 

Any plans to adjust materials and weights accordingly?

 

Currently masts, spars and sails are a tiny negligible fraction of shipbuilding by weight and especially cost. And yet the historical proportion of weight and cost for the rig was well into the double digits (percentage-wise). 

 

 

 

Then there's also the confusion between Pine and Fir, which were interchangeable in the period. (When sources say fir, they mean pine, and the Caribbean had not fir forests.)

  • Pine should be renamed as 'Mast Timber' and it should become very heavy, expensive, labor intensive and more uncommon.

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Currently a grey quality Oak Brig takes by my very rough estimate:

109 Oak Logs

30 Fir Logs

3 Pine Logs

1 Lignum Vitae Log

55 Hemp

23 Stone Blocks

258 Iron Ore

258 Coal

 

By the prices I paid for these goods, including some very good prices from sailing way out of friendly territory, it cost me around 45,000 to make this brig, of which over 30,000 was the carriages. With prices of goods from close to home it would probably have been over 50,000. To get decent prices on goods you need to do a lot of sailing, probably 60+ minutes to gather goods assuming you use a teleport to return to wherever you're crafting and then you need to sink like 40% of your daily labor hours (200%+ if you want a higher quality boat) into this one ship.

 

Humans seem willing to pay around 45k for a grey brig, which is crazy since you could buy a grey snow from the AI for less than 60k and that is a much better ship. The AI is willing to pay 28,420 which doesn't even come close to covering the cost of the carriages, let alone the rest of the parts, 1+ hours of gameplay and 500+ labor hours. 

 

Prices for goods have to come down or availability has to go way up. The amount of goods needed to make a warship, especially lower quality ships like a brig has to come waaay down. I should take a slight loss (20%?) selling to the AI and I should be able to make a profit selling to humans. As it is I need to sell to humans to come close to just breaking even and I usually still sell at a loss. 

That is exactly the biggest issue right now regarding crafting. To make a long story short, currently ships are made more of iron than of wood :lol: ...

I like the idea of low level crafting notes.

Edited by Red Jack Walker

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Bonnycastle    7

Adding to what upen said, to make a Live Oak Snow I currently need, for the carriages:

 

334 Iron Ore

334 Coal

156 Hemp

26 Oak Logs

 

The rest of the ship:

 

92 Iron Ore

92 Coal

36 Hemp

39 Oak

36 Fir

66 Live Oak

27 Stone Blocks

1 Lignum Vitae 

4 Pine

 

It's absolutely crazy to use over three times the amount of iron for the carriage than the entire rest of the ship, not to mention the carriage ropes being apparently bigger than every sail on the ship combined. Some rough math using the prices I paid makes the total cost of the carriages over 45,000 gold, not counting everything else. When the NPC store is selling Snows for ~55,000, there's almost no possible way of making your money back making any ship with cannons on it. 

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DeRuyter    724

I don't think you need to change the iron ore/iron ingot ratio. The carriages require far too many iron fittings. We are not talking about casting the cannon as well right?

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Primus    42

I have also noticed that certain improvements like extra pump for level 1 require crafting notes as well. Maybe instead of adding a new tear of crafting notes, it might be easier to adjust the amount of resources needed to produce a crafting note by half or even 66%, and increase the amount of crafting notes needed on the higher tear of ships. Also it might be an idea then to also adjust the crafting hours needed to produce a crafting note. The current level of 250 hours + component hours makes it a whopping 310 hours per note.

Edited by Primus

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The real problem is that this game lacks a proper economy.  Ship building should be a drain to the economy while trade and transport should be profitable.  Right now, there are no real trading going on, instead it is just scattering the resources all over the map.  The only way to make money after all the resources have been scattered is by destroying enemy ships.  Basically, the more you are at war, the more money you make.  That really does not make any sense.

 

What is needed are trade goods, not resources.  Rum, molasses, sugar, spices, furniture, fish, wine, foodstuffs, animals, glass, handicrafts, fabrics, etc., basically, goods that can be produced for the sheer motive for profit, not in ship construction.  This would then lead to nations and guilds working together for trade purposes to boost their economy while their rivals will try to undermine it.

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maturin    5,454

 

Ship building should be a drain to the economy

Eh what?

 

 

 

 

Anyways, this is somewhat off-topic, but the addition of different crafting notes gives the devs a powerful tool for balancing vessels.

 

Imagine if the plebian Cherub takes low-level crafting notes, but the more rakishly-inclined and expensive Trinc requires upper-level notes. What will players choose then? The best available, or the best they can get quicker?

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Cmdr Thrudd    68

Really pleased to see these changes are coming! Things as they stand now are pretty silly. 

Any idea how soon this change might go into effect? I'm currently buying in and stockpiling carriages from other crafter just to be able to keep my production going and would rather not hold a large stock if their value is suddenly going to drop.

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JJWolf    122

I'll pull out snips from my production workbook to show the stark difference in NPC sale prices (NPC RRP) and production cost (Total Cost). The resources are based on prices found from Belize to Santa Marta and as far north as Grand Turk, the following ship prices don't even factor in the HOURS of sailing it takes to retrieve these goods, particularly Iron and Oak. And one last thing these are simply Basic crafted ships, to add notes is another 5910 per note without factoring in the 250 labour hours!

 

First a Cutter a the lowest price point of all resources and no labour hour pricing: (looks like a tidy profit right?...)

 

Cutter_Lowest_Price.jpg

 

 

 

When we factor in realistic resource pricing and labour hours, note the NPC RRP Markup now: (This is where it becomes unprofitable to produce ships...)

 

Cutter_Realistic_Price_With_Hours.jpg

 

 

 

Now lets kick it up a notch and check out building something usable such as a Snow with Oak planks:

 

NA_Snow_Realistic_Prices.jpg

 

 

 

I'm a modest shipwright and sell at a fair price to cover my costs as well as enough to warrant doing more trade runs to retrieve resources. I usually sell at around 20-25% mark-up and that is simply based on the PvE server where you only face NPC aggro, if I was to move my ship making to PvP servers (like I want to) I would need to mark-up from 50-300% just to cover losses in shipping or costs for fleets to procure resources. This is the biggest sticking point why producing ships is not profitable - running a gauntlet to procure goods with no fleet is almost suicide and the NPC ships just undercut your profitability on ship sales by dictating a very low starting price point.

Edited by JJWolf

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OlavDeng2    1,500

The real problem is that this game lacks a proper economy.  Ship building should be a drain to the economy while trade and transport should be profitable.  Right now, there are no real trading going on, instead it is just scattering the resources all over the map.  The only way to make money after all the resources have been scattered is by destroying enemy ships.  Basically, the more you are at war, the more money you make.  That really does not make any sense.

 

What is needed are trade goods, not resources.  Rum, molasses, sugar, spices, furniture, fish, wine, foodstuffs, animals, glass, handicrafts, fabrics, etc., basically, goods that can be produced for the sheer motive for profit, not in ship construction.  This would then lead to nations and guilds working together for trade purposes to boost their economy while their rivals will try to undermine it.

Just a note, a couple of such resources excist such as batavian spices, however the large scattering of such resources randomly has also caused those to become largely unprofitable(also the low production of them usually)

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Like someone else noted, unless you go far and probably a dangerous journey, the ship is extremely expensive to build. A lynx cost me at least 30k to build yesturday. The trader ships are not as bad but with combat ships carrieges alone probably cost what a ship previously cost in total 

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admin    28,101

 

 

What is needed are trade goods, not resources.  Rum, molasses, sugar, spices, furniture, fish, wine, foodstuffs, animals, glass, handicrafts, fabrics, etc., basically, goods that can be produced for the sheer motive for profit, not in ship construction.  This would then lead to nations and guilds working together for trade purposes to boost their economy while their rivals will try to undermine it.

 

this is coming

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Sir Texas Sir    3,662

I notice a lot of folks in our nation are complaining about the lack of Iron/Coal/Fir too to do things.   IF you find it some one put it back up marked up way high.   Which is getting a lot of folks to mark up there ships even more or just stop making cause your going to take a loss.

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Louis Garneray    580

I think lowering the time to build carriage as well as the amount of iron needed for it would be great because right now having iron is better than having gold. I have seen places where it is sold for 300 (or even more)... And then the warships are too expensive to build.

 

Also when breaking up a ship you don't get much from it.

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I think this is a step in the right direction, but am also concerned about the crafting note drop rate..  since Steam sales started, I have built 15 ships ranging from Lynx to Cerb and not seen a crafting note drop..  in EA I had 7 by this time and stage.. it may just be me, but frankly I think this is too low currently.  (probably hear from someone now who has crafted 5 ships and got 5 craft notes)  :)

 

As to prices, I think the posters above me have it summed up pretty well..  it's not possible to compete, as it stands, with the NPC ship prices, and it's not possible to make money selling back to the NPC's.

 

Something needs changing.

Edited by MaliceA4Thought

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