Tacking Sequence

[NorthernWolves]

The thread is about tacking so I would prefer it not be condensed, I'm not in a rush 

 

I find the conversation they are having fascinating and that's coming from an army man and not a navy man, so I really don't have anything to add to it, but it makes me want to learn more. My knowledge base is historical accounts and those are solely accounts of combat, not tacking, braces, shrouds and yards, but that is all a part of it and I'd love to see sailing a smidgen harder and a smidgen more realistic.

 

I don't think it's fair that every time someone starts talking about more realism that they get caricatured into a person who wants a boring hardcore sim. 

 

I think the game is damn near perfect, but I wouldn't mind having a bit more realism in the sail controls, even if that requires learning more about how sails and wind work.

 

I currently enjoy out-sailing the auto-skipper crowd as it is, but I played at least 20 matches before I ever tried manual and I wouldn't mind another small learning curve if the sailing were to ever be fleshed out more.

 

I don't see them taking away auto-skipper, so I don't think anyone who wants it needs to worry.

 

If Assassins Creed sailing is 1 on the scale and 10 is a mind numbing sailing sim, let's say NA is about 5 right now, maybe even a 4. I think there are a lot more people who would like to see a 6 rather than a 3 or 4. That's not asking for much.

[NorthernWolves]

Figured I'd share this 

 

 

Where is this from Balck?

[Balck]

Where is this from Balck?

I got it from here while doing research on the subject.

[maturin]

Current Auto-Skipper goal is trim for speed. Thus he tries to get yards "to maximum possible speed" position.

That's a separate issue, though. When your bow is pointed into the wind, the square yards are decelerating you no matter what their position. So the only way to gain speed is to gain time by rotating faster. The fore yards need to stay backed until the tack is completed, regardless of any misguided 'goals' the autoskipper might have.

I hope it's clear that this isn't just a realism issue. Right now the autoskipper itself is engaging in sealclubbing because it teaches new players incorrect, inferior methods! They should watch the autoskipper and learn, not watch and be misinformed. Instead they see other players doing mysterious things and are alienated by it.

I also think tacking requires improvements because based on what one of the real sailors on the forum saying ships actually tack much easier - he even posted videos of Lady Washington making multiple tacks in the SF Bay.

Who, Ryan? He would tell you that both Lady Washington and Niagara are lightly-built, sweet-sailing vessels with inherent maneuverability. The latter is also an extreme clipper type with loads of power in its high rig.

It would be very incorrect to make the heavy frigates or even Surprise tack much easier at this point. Surprise can already tack in seconds with almost no speed. At speed she careens around like a racehorse. Later on I will post a video of a frigate-sized whaler tacking.

Another feature/problem with tacking currently is Rudder. Now players have to watch negative speed.

Previously, to tack right you had to double click D (right) and even if your ship was going backwards you did not have to watch for negative speed. Currently, you get stuck because if you did not press A (left) in time when your speed got negative, you start turning back into the wind, and missing it again makes it even worse. As a result a tack for surprise was 1-1.5 min before and could be 2-3 mins now. It is annoying even for me, as if you keep your ship on D (turn rudder full right) you will never tack.

I am not sure this A D back and forth button mashing is a sustainable feature in the long term, because in the end you are just giving an order .. tack right, and help by additional orders for yards.

Some people will curse me for saying so, but I argued against reverse rudder from the start. It's an interesting detail for people who imagine theirselves as the helmsman, but sort of a false realism given that nothing else about the helm is simulated. I wouldn't mind it being optional.

Which brings me to my main point. If you want to improve tacking, don't make it faster or easier, just reduce the consequences for failure. A ship that fails to come about and falls back on the old tack is disappointed, but still in the fight. But a ship stuck in irons is helpless. The latter happens too often and easily in the game. In reality it would be easy for them to turn to leeward and not get stuck.

The overall problem is that tacking is so difficult to balance that it might need special vessel performance properties. For example, when your sails are aback and you are pointed higher than 20 degrees, you could implement a leeward turning buff and a windward turning debuff.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

It would be very incorrect to make the heavy frigates or even Surprise tack much easier at this point. Surprise can already tack in seconds with almost no speed. At speed she careens around like a racehorse. Later on I will post a video of a frigate-sized whaler tacking.

Some people will curse me for saying so, but I argued against reverse rudder from the start. It's an interesting detail for people who imagine theirselves as the helmsman, but sort of a false realism given that nothing else about the helm is simulated. I wouldn't mind it being optional.

Which brings me to my main point. If you want to improve tacking, don't make it faster or easier, just reduce the consequences for failure. A ship that fails to come about and falls back on the old tack is disappointed, but still in the fight. But a ship stuck in irons is helpless. The latter happens too often and easily in the game. In reality it would be easy for them to turn to leeward and not get stuck.

 

I agree with all of this.  If you see the game controls more as "I'm the Captain, bring the ship about!" and less as "Hey, let me take the wheel and bring her about myself", having to reverse rudder during a tack is an unnecessary control input.  As the Captain, I say "come 2 points starboard" to the helmsman, he and the sailing master handle the detail work of making that happen.  It shouldn't be as it is now "Ready about, helms alee, we're backing, helmsman you infernal lubber, reverse that rudder!"

[Leviathan]

If any changes do come to tacking I personally don't want to see it made so easy that it's fail-safe for even the newest of players. Of course they will struggle at the beginning but they will learn just like everyone else has to. I still think people should be able to get stuck in irons if they initiate a tack with improper control and speed leaving them vulnerable until they free themselves.

 

Since there are no magic skills in this game (which I am very happy about) we need the controls such as aiming and sailing to maintain focus on player skill and not water them down too much. They need to require enough skill that those who put the effort in can separate themselves from those who don't. If everything is made so simple and friendly that you can't fail, then the gap between players who put in the time and new/casual players is significantly lessened. The result would be that matches would turn into a crap-shoot as practically everyone would be even with no incentive to get better.

[Sir. Cunningham]

IMHO tacking shouldn't be made any easier, it's already very easy to learn if you ask me.

[maturin]

Especially since when you are tacking, and moving at 0.5 knots, the rudder is irrelevant. All rotation comes from the sails.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Especially since when you are tacking, and moving at 0.5 knots, the rudder is irrelevant. All rotation comes from the sails.

 

And that's a great point right there I hadn't thought of Maturin.  +1

 

That said, for playability, the Devs allow rotation even at a standstill (the fluff being that you're using anchors or towing the head around with boats).  This wouldn't be done in real life except in dire circumstances, but there is a bow to playability there at the moment.

[maturin]

 

That said, for playability, the Devs allow rotation even at a standstill (the fluff being that you're using anchors or towing the head around with boats).

Thing is, Darby, rotating a stopped ship is entirely possibly by using the sails.

 

If you are hove-to, you can shiver the mizzen and main, back the fore, strike the spanker and flat in the headsails. As a result your ship will spin on its heel and fall off downwind.

 

 

It would be entirely realistic to even increase that current minimum rotation speed, so long as some sail is set. To represent the turning effect of specially-trimmed sails. That might make tacking too easy again, however.

[Johny Reb]

I hope it's clear that this isn't just a realism issue. Right now the autoskipper itself is engaging in sealclubbing because it teaches new players incorrect, inferior methods! They should watch the autoskipper and learn, not watch and be misinformed. Instead they see other players doing mysterious things and are alienated by it.

I'm not trying to be contentious here. I just want to pose a question. Does it really matter what the sails do in autoskipper? People that use autoskipper simply want to press left or right to make the ship turn. Could they care less about what the sails are doing as long as it looks normal to the untrained eye?

 

It would be very incorrect to make the heavy frigates or even Surprise tack much easier at this point. Surprise can already tack in seconds with almost no speed. At speed she careens around like a racehorse. Later on I will post a video of a frigate-sized whaler tacking.

I hope its not that video with the big ship tacking in three knot winds. That one may not be the best one to use as an example.

 

Some people will curse me for saying so, but I argued against reverse rudder from the start. It's an interesting detail for people who imagine theirselves as the helmsman, but sort of a false realism given that nothing else about the helm is simulated. I wouldn't mind it being optional.

Ill be the first

I think your statement is false. When you press A or D you are simulating the helm. What else would that be simulating? Giving orders?  The Admins have encouraged us to not see ourselves as just the Captain but also the gunners, the helmsman, the crew, the officers, the carpenters, etc, so why do we continue to argue from a perspective that has already been decided against? Is it just to go down with the ship? (This applies to Henry's following statement also)

Also, by using the false realism argument then you should be arguing against the whole game don't you think? Why apply a "false realism" to one mechanic but ignore it for most others?

As for the optional part, I think it needs to be either be there or not. I believe it in our best interest that all players are equal in all but skill. If manual sailing requires reverse rudder like in real life then everyone should have to learn it.

 

I think you and Henry and at least one of the Admins forget what manual sailing was originally designed to be... a way to gain advantage at higher risk. Yet it almost sounds like your saying to make manual sailing no different then autoskipper in all but your ability to say, "hey look i turned some sails". If NA removes this without adding in some other complication to manual sailing then my respect for NA has dropped significantly. I think the manual tacking and its meaningfulness has been one of the highlights of this game and to remove something that gives it that much more depth because you don't want to have to watch your speedometer is just a dumbing down of an awsome mechanic.

 

Manual sailing has to be a skill that you have to learn, have to master like seamanship is in real life. If its just set to easy mode than do away with it all together and don't waste our time getting our hopes up about something that there is no point in learning.

[Johny Reb]

 

It would be entirely realistic to even increase that current minimum rotation speed, so long as some sail is set. To represent the turning effect of specially-trimmed sails. That might make tacking too easy again, however.

I'm cool with this although I think a totally demasted ship shouldn't be able to. If the ship can't turn without some sail usage then that will aid the whole surrender mechanic and increase immersion.

[maturin]

Yeah, I would rather have relatively fast rotating at slow speeds, but no rotation without sail set.

 

Imho the game should do everything possible to punish people who put away all their sails. This is such cowardly, lubberly behavior. Worst of all is when people do it to 'dodge' chainshot. In reality a ship with no sails is going to roll too heavily to be a decent gun platform.

 

 

 

Anyways, here is a frigate-sized ship tacking, as promised.

[maturin]

 

I'm not trying to be contentious here. I just want to pose a question. Does it really matter what the sails do in autoskipper? People that use autoskipper simply want to press left or right to make the ship turn. Could they care less about what the sails are doing as long as it looks normal to the untrained eye?

Well for starters, I don't care about the untrained eye. My trained eye bleeds whenever I watch autoskipper tack.

 

Also, as I said, as a player gets more experienced, he should start learning about how the yard control works. Autoskipper is a set of training wheels. It should be correct so it can teach. If it's not correct it will mislead.

 

 

When you press A or D you are simulating the helm. What else would that be simulating? Giving orders?

If it's meant to simulate the helm than it doesn't a pretty poor job. I imagine it to be the combined efforts of the helmsmen and the men at sheets and braces.

 

I can put it all very simply. At 0.5 knots a rudder does almost nothing and yet by pressing A/D the ship turns.  So how can A and D be simulating the action of a rudder? No, instead I've just told the master that we will fall off three points, and the forecastlemen have flatted in the jibs while the afterguard have let out the spanker.

 

And the whole idea of being a helmsman falls flat for me when I am playing a storm battle and scudding before big Atlantic rollers. And a wave strikes the ship under the counter but our course stays true with no effort on my part. Because I'm standing next to the four helmsmen while they do battle with the wheel.

 

 

I think you and Henry and at least one of the Admins forget what manual sailing was originally designed to be... a way to gain advantage at higher risk.

I remember. But making the autoskipper look and act all wrong is a pretty piss-poor way of providing an advantage. That's like saying buying two bikes, and slashing the tires on one of them to create an 'advantage.' Instead, just buy a faster bike!

[Johny Reb]

Ok fair enough but at least part of you turning the ship is the helm even if it incorporates other aspects as well.

 

Well, if autoskipper is supposed to be the lubberly way of handling the ship and manual the true seaman's way than how do we make the autoskipper imperfect yet show a relatively proper way of handling the sails? If we just buff manual sailing then it wouldn't 'feel' right to me. Would it for you?

 

Now if I was to attempt to take on your perspective (and I'm not sure I could be successful) and agree to remove reverse rudder we would be left with a mechanic that has no skill involved and is hardly different than autoskipper because it is doing the same thing. So, for me to even consider the viability of your perspective there would need to be added in some other complications that turn it back into a true skill. The only thing I can think could do that would be to give us headsail and spaker control as well but it seems like the admins are adverse to that so unless you have another idea I think reverse rudder needs to remain.

[maturin]

Manual tacking is already superior because luffing the fore stack lets you come to faster, hauling the main around a point early is more effective, and keeping the fore stack aback makes you pay off faster.

[Johny Reb]

Yes but your proposing that the AI needs to do it right so what would be the point of manual sailing? If the AI does it 'right' but we can gain an advantage by doing something a point early here and turning our fore stack whenever then won't the advantage be miniscule to what the AI is doing?

 

Whats the difference now? 10 seconds? I havn't timed it since they made tacking easier. So if AI does it 'right' then what do we gain by manual tacking then? 2 seconds? Thats probably not even worth learning how.

[maturin]

Cheer up, there was never any real difference for tacking a frigate at top speed. Momentum will carry you through there no matter what your yards do. (Fun fact: Swinging all yards at once was actually practiced by very experienced crews as a means of showing off, but it was not practical.)

 

But at slow speeds, manual yard control is vital and makes an enormous difference. You know that. What's more, the ability to control your yards enables you to fight and tack at the same time, but changing the direction and speed of rotation to track targets.

[Johny Reb]

I'm super cheery.   There are a couple of issues that I am very passionate about and can get a little overexcited about when people don't see the logic of my ideas but I've convinced myself not to let this conversation affect me in such a way and it hasn't.

 

I'm with you to a point on the easier tacking. Mainly tacking the smaller ships. I''m also ok with being able to tack the larger ships at slower speeds but I'd probably make it a third of their top speed being the cutoff point for a clean tack using autoskipper. Slower speeds would require manual tacking and manual tacking would give you a quicker tack at the higher speeds.

 

FYI... my issues that I'm passionate about...

- manual sailing being something really worth learning and complicated enough to require a little mastery.

- Societies/clan structure and abilities

- and getting rid of that horrendous wind arc depiction on the compass rows. I can't believe I'm the only one railing against that.

[maturin]

What should the wind arc look like? POTBS style? Different orientation?

[Balck]

Frankly, I like the minimalist U.I.  It has plenty of info without overwhelming the screen.  I hope they don't go to PotBS style though, never liked that rose under the boat.  

[Johny Reb]

What should the wind arc look like? POTBS style? Different orientation?

Right now the shaded area representing the wind is on the downwind side of the compass. The orientation needs to change to the upwind side. It has little meaning on the downwind side, is less intuitive, and opposite to how its referenced in every profession I can think of in real life.

 

Its not intuitive because noob players will be forced into thinking that when they are pointing their ship into the shaded area, either something bad will happen (cuz they think they are pointing into the wind) but it won't, or they will think that there is some benefit in it (better point of sail) but it isn't. Also when you are pinching up close to the wind and in tacks, are you looking at the bottom of the compass or at the opposite end?

 

My guess is that most players have tuned out of their "scan" the shaded wind arc completely and only look at the arrow line itself. If I'm right then that wind arc depiction, as is, has no meaning. It should be reoriented or removed all together.

 

Its unreal to life. In Aviation, Nautical seamanship, on the News, in the newspapers, the wind is always referred to where its blowing FROM. Is it different in different countries? In the age of sail they referred to wind by where its blowing FROM not where its blowing TO and that remains till today.

 

So I say, give the wind arc some meaning, make it more intuitive, or remove it altogether.

 

 

Frankly, I like the minimalist U.I.  It has plenty of info without overwhelming the screen.  I hope they don't go to PotBS style though, never liked that rose under the boat.  

Im not interested in doing that, if you misunderstood me. I'm talking on the current UI depiction in the bottom left of the UI. I'm not looking to add anything to the UI just change the relative position of the shaded wind arc area of the compass to the upwind side.

 

When they asked all the testers which compass depiction we liked most they gave us like 20 options. Only one of them had this erroneous depiction. I can't fathom why they picked it as I can't believe that is the one most were asking for.

[maturin]

Very true, I sometimes get the wind direction mixed up as well.

[Balck]

Really?  I always see the shaded arcs on the downwind side of the arrow.  Compass point, 0 being north, I get.  The arrow is the wind, point of the arrow is downwind.  Maybe I'm missing something...  

[Johny Reb]

Really?  I always see the shaded arcs on the downwind side of the arrow.  Compass point, 0 being north, I get.  The arrow is the wind, point of the arrow is downwind.  Maybe I'm missing something...  

The arrow itself is not the issue. The fact that it points downwind is fine with me since it is a line that starts at one point and travels a certain direction to another, hence the arrow. Its the shaded part that is the problem. The shaded part is supposed to tell you something and something that the arrow does not already show. But it tells you nothing for the reasons I've already mentioned and feel speak for themselves.