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Ship Speeds - Testing and Discussion

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NorthernWolves    1,309

In my PDF about the Constitution's HP proposal many months ago, I detailed how hard and labor intensive the harvesting of Live Oak was.
Many men, free and slaves, and mules died.

 

Live Oak to this day is not commercially available in the US and most sawmills will refuse to work it if you bring them some.
 
So the costs and labor hours in game should be incredibly high, Live Oak is not used on a whim, it is only used when specifically sought out and price/labor is not an issue.
 
On speed, the Constitution in real life was clocked at 15 knots on several occasions in her captains log. Her common operating top speed was 13-14 knots. Keep in mind the Endymion, fir built, topped out at 14.4 knots.
 
So a Live Oak Constitution in this game maxing out at 12.5 knots is, well, yeah. 
 
Hull breadth to length ratio and the aerodynamics of the hull shape dictate top speed more than weight, so this 'heavier is slower' model is very simplistic and is causing issues with speeds.

The wrong approach is to slow the Constitution down to somehow nerf it because it is thought of as a frigate, I've been hitting this fallacy for going on a year now, I take it no one has yet read the link in my signature?

It is it's own unique class of ship, stronger sides than a 74, historical fact, faster than any ship of the line and most frigates. Her introduction changed the way ships were built, the British adopted her scantling designs in their newest frigates and 74s.

 

She will still lose to a 74 in 1v1 combat and she is more expensive to build than a 74, those are her 'nerfs' that are historical.

 

The other real life 'balance' is in making Live Oak only available in 2-3 ports on the Georgia and Florida coast and have those ports only produce a small amount and make the Live Oak logs extremely expensive and crafting them into frames should cost 5x the labor hours it currently does.

 

Combine all that together and she will fit in her right place.

Right now, a Live Oak Constitution is the slowest ship in the game and that is wrong in so many ways, so wrong that Prater's proposal to just change the name is better than misrepresenting her in such a way.

 

 

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r1wZCpF.png

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LeBoiteux    1,257

I'm fine with giving her to the French and naming her the Acheron as Prater suggested.

We, french, accept this proposal with pleasure and acknowledge the change in ownership of that ship.

I've already contacted our naval painters for the name change on the stern. :)  :D

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Malachi    587
The Constitution made 15 knots once leaving Malta in a strong wind, it's in her log book at the museum. She is most often attributed to 14 knots. You do see 13 knots mentioned as well. All of these situations were dependent on the wind at the time. It's why we see the Victory quoted at anywhere from 8 to 11 knots.

 

 

Now that´s remarkable. Malta...is that during the First Babary Wars or her later services as flagship in the med in the 1820s and 1830s? I´m asking because there´s one thing that always puzzled me: as far as know, USS/HMS President was considered the fastest of the three super frigates (and got caught by Endymion quite easily), at least in our timeframe.

Yet Constitution logged 14 and even 15 knots O.o

 

hhh.   How many frigates could catch the Constitution?  How many tried?  HMS Shannon (Leda Class), couldn't catch up to the much heavier Constitution in light airs, which favors lighter ships.  The hull seed of the Coni is higher than shorter frigates, no?  Quote from the designer of the American 44 gun frigates:  "if others (frigates) should be in company, our frigates can always lead ahead and never be obliged to go into action, but on their own terms, except in a calm."

 

 

 

Okay, I should have wrote:

 

'Coni was meant to seriously outgun anything smaller then herself, not to chase it down, which she couldn´t have done unless in favourable circumstances. SoLs being decidedly faster than Constitution is a joke, though.'

 

And hull speed isn´t a really decisive factor for 18th century sailing ships. Vessels with 125' (Alarm) , 136'4'' (Gracieuse)'', 156' (swedish Diana) and 176' (Leander) could reach 14 knots.

 

 

And one more thing: Coni should roflstomp anything below another 24-pounder frigate if combat by the smaller ship is given and outsail any SoL.

She had that niche between SoLs and the vast majority of european frigates for 15 years or so historically and it should be that way in NA, too.

Edited by Malachi

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NorthernWolves    1,309

The President had suffered severe damage to her keel having stuck on a mudbar off Sandy Hook for 6 hours: "by the time the frigate worked free it was heavily damaged: some copper was stripped away from the hull; the masts were twisted and some of them "sprung," i.e. had developed long cracks; and the hull was twisted and "hogged," i.e. the bow and stern sagged."

Yes the 15 knots off Malta was in the 1830's, but she was still the same ship powered by the same masts and press of cotton sail. They may have shifted her main mast reward a couple feet during a refit as the President had been (I'm speculating there is nothing to suggest this was the case) or possibly this captain had the right setup and had a perfect wind. She made the knots and we know she made 14 knots during her heyday.

And most importantly she made enough knots when it mattered, in light airs and strong wind to outrun 5 British ships of various sizes over 57 hours.

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Prater    5,325

 

Or you want this ship to have HP, Speed and penetration class?

 

 

 

The Santisima has all 3.  That is why there is always sol creep.  In 2 months, without a wipe, everyone will be sailing around in Santisimas except for newer players.  It has the firepower, it has the speed, it has the crew count, and it has the HP.

 

Why can't ships just have their historical statistics?  How do you balance the coni out?  By making it expensive.  Increase the level requirement for the recipe, double the materials, make it Live Oak only and increase the cost of live oak and labor hours for live oak framing.  Remove the 18lbers from the top deck and restrict it to 12lbers, but increase the carronades to 42lb carronades.  Restrict Teak to British ports only, restrict Live Oak to 4 US, 4 Spanish, 4 French, 8 neutral (no neutral ports on the US Coast), and 4 Pirate ports around the entire US Coast, Cuba and South America to account for Cuban Caguairán wood and the hardwoods in Brazil.  Give the Swedes a ton of Iron at Gustavia (do away with Swedish Iron),  give the Dutch a bonus to hauling space or decrease cost of trading ships.

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Alex Connor    866

Live Oak is 2 times heavier than normal oak - why suddenly it should be as fast or faster? 

Or you want this ship to have HP, Speed and penetration class?

12-13 knots is pretty historical and speeds will be rebalanced anyway. 

Yes.

 

And this is from probably one of the more outspoken critics of the Constitution (me). Treating Constitution as a simple step between 3rd and 5th rates does the ship no justice. Where I'd put the rated ships in terms of expense/difficulty of building and progression...

 

6th rate Frigate (9 pdr)

 

5th rate Frigate (12 pdr)   -------   5th rate ship (18 pdr)

 

5th rate Frigate (18 pdr)   -------   4th rate ship (24 pdr)

 

                                          -------  3rd rate ship (24 pdr)

 

5th rate Frigate (24 pdr)   -------   3rd rate ship (32 pdr)

 

                                         --------   2nd rate ship (80 or 3 decker)

 

Super-Frigate    (24 pdr)   --------   1st rate

 

With a big step in cost/time to build between each band. Bigger than reality even, make the build time and price reflect how difficult it would have been for a captain to really obtain command of that ship. Make the Constitution as powerful as the real thing (including running around at 13kts equivalent with live oak construction), but make it very rare, as difficult and expensive to build as a 1st rate.

 

This is the end-game monster frigate that only a few captains should get to sail (kinda a Holy **** moment if you see one, like a 1st rate should be), not some generic 4th rate which can be mass-produced and is all over the ocean (seriously, I've built 4 of them already and would have built more if players weren't turning their noses up at anything less than 4 notes mastercraft/exceptional).

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NorthernWolves    1,309

Live Oak is 2 times heavier than normal oak - why suddenly it should be as fast or faster? 

Or you want this ship to have HP, Speed and penetration class?

12-13 knots is pretty historical and speeds will be rebalanced anyway. 

I don't care if she tops out at 13.5 knots in the game, that is much more likely her operational top speed anyway, the 14 and 15 knots came later in her career. I realize you can change what knots we see in the UI, so it's really about the relative speed and right now she is far too slow compared.

 

I'm not unreasonable, even though the President was heavily damaged in the keel, had twisted masts and was hogging heavily after being on the sandbar for 6 hours prior to the Endymion catching her, I won't pitch a fit if you make the Endymion faster than the Constitution. She is known as the 'fastest ship in the British Navy' so let her haul tail. If there is a historical precedent or a sound argument to be made for a ships characteristic then by all means embrace it.

 

What we are saying is that right now her being several knots slower than a Santisima is off the charts. She should be able to replicate the Great Escape at the very least.

 

What we want is for her and all ships to have the correct HP, speed and penetration class that they actually deserve. With enough ships in the game (which we are about to have) and enough pro's/cons/incentives etc in the economy and missions (Navy captain roles?) there can be plenty of reasons to sail a Cerberus, or a Surprise. 

 

I'm serious about the labor hours and costs of Live Oak going up, 5x higher in both cases at the least. Availability should be very low too. Most people should choose Oak, or Teak because it makes more sense economically. I think a Teak built ship should give you an extra durability. Fir should be super cheap in cost and labor hours. 

 

I think the behavior of the Live Oak vs Oak, and Oak vs Teak and Fir etc in combat is really well done btw. 

 

 

I'm currently in a frigate because I love it, I don't feel the need to get a Trinc or a 74. We have some guys in fir Trincs because they are speed freaks, but they know they can't fight toe to toe in battles because of that, I think that's a good trade off and adds to gameplay. These suggestions/feedback aren't about splitting frog hairs under a microscope.

 

There will be a ton of players like me. The honor system I proposed awhile back would be a huge 'balance' to this issue. I firmly believe the wrong place to 'balance' is in the ships characteristics. 

 

Naval Action is just too goddamn good and beautiful of a game to deviate from history with the ship characteristics. This game is still so badass, even after a year of sailing almost everyday. It's going to knock people out of their chairs.

 

I'm telling you, when the lifelong history buff and ship modeler sees that the Constitution has Live Oak and has the correct armament, HP and speed, he will love you forever.

 

Same with the British, French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish etc version of that person when seeing their national ships are made correctly and sail correctly.

 

I am not an anomaly, right now there are thousands of age of sail history buffs waiting on Facebook that will be wanting what I want.

 

Realism and good gameplay can coexist, I think realism makes gameplay better. Immersion, immersion, immersion.

 

The Connie should be able to outrun 64's, 74's, 32's and 38s', because she actually did, in any wind. She should be as hard to sink as a 74, but since she throws a much lighter broadside, no 74 (captains equal) will be threatened.

 

We have to decide if a ships top speed is with the best possible modules or her listed top speed is without any modules.

 

I think the modules effect overall need to be reduced for all ships. A fraction of a knot can make a difference in a chase. 

Apologies for this post being so ADD, I will organize my ideas and put them in the suggestions thread. Overall I think a combination of using the economy, issued missions, shallow zones, nerfed modules and an honor system will handle all the balancing that is desired while leaving these glorious ships historically accurate.

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NorthernWolves    1,309

This is the end-game monster frigate that only a few captains should get to sail (kinda a Holy **** moment if you see one, like a 1st rate should be), not some generic 4th rate which can be mass-produced and is all over the ocean (seriously, I've built 4 of them already and would have built more if players weren't turning their noses up at anything less than 4 notes mastercraft/exceptional).

 

I agree with this. 2 months after Steam release there will be maybe 20% of the player base in a favorite smaller ship, and 80% in exceptional Santisimas and Victorys. That won't be good.

 

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Prater    5,325

Yes.

 

And this is from probably one of the more outspoken critics of the Constitution (me). Treating Constitution as a simple step between 3rd and 5th rates does the ship no justice. Where I'd put the rated ships in terms of expense/difficulty of building and progression...

 

6th rate Frigate (9 pdr)

 

5th rate Frigate (12 pdr)   -------   5th rate ship (18 pdr)

 

5th rate Frigate (18 pdr)   -------   4th rate ship (24 pdr)

 

                                          -------  3rd rate ship (24 pdr)

 

5th rate Frigate (24 pdr)   -------   3rd rate ship (32 pdr)

 

                                         --------   2nd rate ship (80 or 3 decker)

 

Super-Frigate    (24 pdr)   --------   1st rate

 

With a big step in cost/time to build between each band. Bigger than reality even, make the build time and price reflect how difficult it would have been for a captain to really obtain command of that ship. Make the Constitution as powerful as the real thing (including running around at 13kts equivalent with live oak construction), but make it very rare, as difficult and expensive to build as a 1st rate.

 

This is the end-game monster frigate that only a few captains should get to sail (kinda a Holy **** moment if you see one, like a 1st rate should be), not some generic 4th rate which can be mass-produced and is all over the ocean (seriously, I've built 4 of them already and would have built more if players weren't turning their noses up at anything less than 4 notes mastercraft/exceptional).

 

 

Yes, make the Constitution recipe and any 1st Rate recipe require level 50 and 2000 labor hours.  Then have the amount of materials required for these recipes total about 4000-10000 labor hours.  Keep the max labor hour pool at 2000 so that you cant go away for a week and come back and be able to make these ships easily.  Make it so that if you choose to make a Live Oak Constitution, that adds another 2000 labor hours.  Maybe make it so that 1 job of Live Oak is 15 hours.  Instead of the Constitution requiring 333 Frames, it would require 666 Frames, for about 2000 labor hours.  Scale the 1st rates as well, so that the Victory would take 932 Frames instead of 466.

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Mr. Doran    355

The Santisima has all 3.  That is why there is always sol creep.  In 2 months, without a wipe, everyone will be sailing around in Santisimas except for newer players.  It has the firepower, it has the speed, it has the crew count, and it has the HP.

 

Why can't ships just have their historical statistics?  How do you balance the coni out?  By making it expensive.  Increase the level requirement for the recipe, double the materials, make it Live Oak only and increase the cost of live oak and labor hours for live oak framing.  Remove the 18lbers from the top deck and restrict it to 12lbers, but increase the carronades to 42lb carronades.  Restrict Teak to British ports only, restrict Live Oak to 4 US, 4 Spanish, 4 French, 8 neutral (no neutral ports on the US Coast), and 4 Pirate ports around the entire US Coast, Cuba and South America to account for Cuban Caguairán wood and the hardwoods in Brazil.  Give the Swedes a ton of Iron at Gustavia (do away with Swedish Iron),  give the Dutch a bonus to hauling space or decrease cost of trading ships.

 

Trying to provide balance to combat mechanics through eco mechanics only hurts those who do not have massive eco operations and benefits those who do. The whole live oak/con speed historical accuracy hard-on everyone has is all for not I think as long as raking, demasting, and cutting their rudder is an effective equalizer plus or minus one ship; at that point speed becomes less of an issue in combat balance because these god ships are no longer immune to double/ball rakes. No one gave a shit about the disparity in combat capabilities between the two ships in sea trials because one could disable the other (even a surprise could) with ball or double rakes... demasting was missing from the equation but even still.  

 

Let's give Gold Pellew's sights to everyone because I can't hit anything.  Let's nerf the Coni's speed so that sols catch it.  Let's enshrine my goto ship and my treatise. 

 

derailed_zpsdhmotlad.jpg

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admin    28,104

We have said several times that current speeds are unbalanced because a lot of upgrades were introduced for testing which cause the significant difference in speeds. 

 

This is going to be fixed. The speeds difference will not be so drastic in the next patch. 

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NorthernWolves    1,309

 

Trying to provide balance to combat mechanics through eco mechanics only hurts those who do not have massive eco operations and benefits those who do. The whole live oak/con speed historical accuracy hard-on everyone has is all for not I think as long as raking, demasting, and cutting their rudder is an effective equalizer plus or minus one ship; at that point speed becomes less of an issue in combat balance because these god ships are no longer immune to double/ball rakes. No one gave a shit about the disparity in combat capabilities between the two ships in sea trials because one could disable the other (even a surprise could) with ball or double rakes... demasting was missing from the equation but even still.  

What. The.

First of all where were you during Sea Trials?? Oh, 180 posts ;)

The issues with the Constitution have been the most specific ship discussed issues since testing began. Hands down.

 

"raking, demasting, and cutting their rudder is an effective equalizer plus or minus one ship"

 

 Umm, what.

 

So let's make all the ships have the same speed and HP, you know, balance. The meta on the fun quotient has been shown to go off the meter when everything is balanced. Or at least the egalitarian meter at Berkeley.

 

Ok, ok,  we can give the Victory half the HP of the Santisima too, who says I can't compromise?

 

The Constitution has half that of the Bellona and they are closer in size than the Vic and Santi,so this unbalance of the tier-meta is caused by denying the Victory's right to half HP.

 

I mean after all, raking and rudder shots yo. Surprise can disable both equally, so, there you go. Half HP. Done.

And why stop there, lets give the Surprise half that of the Cerberus. Brig half that of the Navy Brig.

 

I've always wanted to ask, what's the DPS of the meta on the rudder shots of a half third larger, but negative point 3 DPS of the Tier 2 Frigate-Destroyer Class? Then again, that doesn't balance with the former rebalance of the class tier meta off-balance from Sea Trials.

 

You know we still have the issue of a 30% chance of a tack tactic on a Tuesday vs unknown combatant and a 56.334567% chance of a tack vs a Sea Trials veteran. The storm map DPS will be lower so we have to buff cannons during those instances or players in the calm seas will rank up higher than those in the storms. Balance yo.

 

And at the end of the day, DPS. Meta. Nerf, buff, rebalance.

 

;)

 

Seriously fellows, let's just make the ships historical. Problems solved.

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marecek05    382

+krauts i want ships with ther pro's and cons'

 

I agree. Constis pros as far as I know were:

1. Fast

2. Heavy armament for a frigate

3. Strong sides

Cons:

1. Mediocre turning

2. Extremely expensive and labour intensive

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jodgi    2,318

Arright, back to speedprofiles. Go easy on the politics here.

Constitution, fir, long guns and nothing else interfering with speed:

5X5fHJ0.gif

Gives this:

r4WGUGk.png

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Shadowwulf    21

Arright, back to speedprofiles. Go easy on the politics here.

Constitution, fir, long guns and nothing else interfering with speed:

5X5fHJ0.gif

Gives this:

r4WGUGk.png

I can't be the only one that thinks this is absurd. right?

 

edit: Just saw Frigate post, so if that's a fir Frigate whats the speed of a Live oak Frigate and Conni?

Edited by Shadowwulf

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jodgi    2,318

I can't be the only one that thinks this is absurd. right?

 

edit: Just saw Frigate post, so if that's a fir Frigate whats the speed of a Live oak Frigate and Conni?

I only have so much time and noone else is doing this.

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jodgi    2,318

prCYkgj.png

The diff is 2.6% but I guess we can assume 3% in the actual math.

Live oak with carronades gives you 11.9 knots max. With longs you get 11.3, so 0.6 knots plus going with nades or 5.3% (~5%) increase in speed.

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jodgi    2,318

PCuIceP.png

My fir connie would be run down by a live oak santi beam reach, check out the closure rate, GG.

TQdtuJ2.png

Prater, I honestly thought your were kidding, or politix.

Special thanks to balticsailor. Din fandens spasser! :P

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