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Ship Speeds - Testing and Discussion

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Prater    5,325

Live oak is the biggest difference though. I mean, Constitution's hull frame weighs more than the hull frames of Leander and Newcastle put together...

 

Yes, but this didn't make the Constitution slower than the Bellona or Santisima or Pavel did it, because that is what we currently have?

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Alex Connor    866

Yes, but this didn't make the Constitution slower than the Bellona or Santisima or Pavel did it, because that is what we currently have?

Definitely Constitution should be balanced around Live Oak = historical speed (or whatever historical speed gets adjusted to ingame).

 

Although this opens up a rabbit hole of superfast fir built Connies tearing around ganking everything which I'm not sure we want to go down...

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Alex Connor    866

Really it's a bit of a tricky situation, we lack direct comparisons of ship built in live oak vs the same design in another wood type. Only example I can think of is USS President and the oak built copy the British made after the original was broken up, if anyone can turn up sailing reports would be very interesting.

 

I'm not even sure if wood type should make a difference to top speed, at least for ships of the same design. 

 

Ships tend to perform best at a given level of loading, fir ships wound up taking on more ballast and being rather stiff because the center of gravity was lower, but not noticeably faster than oak or teak built ships.

 

The United States class would have been built with hull lines/displacement to carry the extra weight, so if you take the same design and built it from another wood you really aren't going to be much (if at all) faster. Stiffer certainly, and I expect you'd have no problems carrying the original fully armed spardeck, but no particular reason to believe the ship would be faster, at least at best point of sail (being stiffer can improve upwind performance).

 

Meanwhile if you took a design intended for oak/teak/fir construction and built it with live oak and zero-space framing I expect you would ruin it, the resulting ship would be rather tender and probably unable to carry the original armament.

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Prater    5,325

Really it's a bit of a tricky situation, we lack direct comparisons of ship built in live oak vs the same design in another wood type. Only example I can think of is USS President and the oak built copy the British made after the original was broken up, if anyone can turn up sailing reports would be very interesting.

 

I'm not even sure if wood type should make a difference to top speed, at least for ships of the same design. 

 

Ships tend to perform best at a given level of loading, fir ships wound up taking on more ballast and being rather stiff because the center of gravity was lower, but not noticeably faster than oak or teak built ships.

 

The United States class would have been built with hull lines/displacement to carry the extra weight, so if you take the same design and built it from another wood you really aren't going to be much (if at all) faster. Stiffer certainly, and I expect you'd have no problems carrying the original fully armed spardeck, but no particular reason to believe the ship would be faster, at least at best point of sail (being stiffer can improve upwind performance).

 

Meanwhile if you took a design intended for oak/teak/fir construction and built it with live oak and zero-space framing I expect you would ruin it, the resulting ship would be rather tender and probably unable to carry the original armament.

 

 

Ya, these are interesting points.  I think for gameplay reasons, the speed modifiers need to be lower.  My fir Pickle goes about the same speed as an Oak/Teak Coni at 135.  My Fir Merc with Copper Plating goes over 17 knots.

 

And further more, the Speed built in upgrade isn't working yet. 

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Paraclete    42

 #wadr this discussion on the density of wood fibers on ship speed is silly. There are a thousand other factors more important than wood fiber density on ship speed that are not addressed in the game.

 When it comes to Live Oak you are talking about 4 ships out of tens of thousands afloat. Seasoning of the timbers selected are more important than the wood type and not addressed.

 

There is no addressing the cut of sails. We are to assume that all sails are made equal and that sails last an eternity. Sails should be purchasable and replaceable with quality of weave and cut determining price and longevity . Doubt me go ask the chaps at your local sail club.

 

Weight in the hold is not addressed. If you think this is not a factor go to your local sail club and ask class racers how weight on board effects speed between otherwise identical hull and rig shapes.

We should have to purchase shot, powder and victuals and the weight of the amounts we choose to load should would have a far greater effect than the density of wood fibers in the hull.

 

Coppering and careening are not addressed in game. Think that's not a factor then you have never owned a boat in salt water.

 

Those are just a few examples. A game of this scale may not be able to incorporate these variables but it think makes a point about the present emphasis on the density of the wood fibers in the hull.

 

ymos,

Para

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akd    2,622

+/- 10% speed is way, way too much for wood type. Another tack (:)!) to approach wood chosen for construction might be varying durability points, e.g. fir 4 points of durability, oak / teak 5, and live oak 6.

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Chustler    1,354

I have been sailing a fir ship lately to check it out. It cannot take much punishment, and fires seem to break out far more easily. I have no proof of these things, it's just how it feels. I have not yet decided if I like the extra speed enough to make up for these negatives.

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maturin    5,454

I am totally in favor of wood type affecting durability. Fir ships could be knocked down to 4 or even 3 dura, with proportionate cost savings for the timber and labor.

 

After all, fir is the building material of choice for those who need a ship fast. So such ships don't necessarily have to fit the paradigm of 'get sunk five times in an evening NA session.'

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Rychu Karas    302

in my opinion wood type shoulnt impact on speed. because there is no straight connection betwen these parameters. BUT harder wood is heavier. So wood type should impact on mass.

more weight = less speed.

The same logic should be applied to hauling mechanics. full loaded ships should be slower than empty.

Edited by Rychu Karas

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Prater    5,325

Fir Coni: 15.5
Default: 13.9
Live Oak: 12.5
 
 
TDA proposes we rename the Constitution Acheron, because it isn't the Constitution.  This is a ship that historically with Live Oak sometimes hit 15 knots, while we have other ships in game that didn't hit that going over 17 knots.


P.s. For comparison (old pic, I think this was with 10% speed boost, which would be comparable to Fir):

 


SuperSanti
1Y8BB5v.jpg

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Yankee jack    47

I have been sailing a fir ship lately to check it out. It cannot take much punishment, and fires seem to break out far more easily. I have no proof of these things, it's just how it feels. I have not yet decided if I like the extra speed enough to make up for these negatives.

I have a fir frigate that caught fire and blew up during 2 separate boardings.  Couldn't put it out and couldn't disengage (before it blew.....).

 

Perhaps wood type matters?

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admin    28,133

Live Oak is 2 times heavier than normal oak - why suddenly it should be as fast or faster? 

Or you want this ship to have HP, Speed and penetration class?

12-13 knots is pretty historical and speeds will be rebalanced anyway. 

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Prater    5,325

Right now a Live Oak Coni is the slowest vessel any player has.  It will get overrun by sols who are able to go much faster than it.  And it has half the HP that a Bellona has even though they should be closer.  My Live Oak 74 without speed mods goes 0.2 knots slower than a Live Oak Coni. Have you scaled the Pavel and the Santisima?  Because they are going to be going faster than the Constitution.

 

 If I had an Oak 74, it would be going 13.5 knots.  13.5, a full knot of difference.  Sols should not be able to outrun the Coni unless in very heavy weather.

 

Historical yes, but why keep the Constitution's speed alone historical while everything else about it, and every other ship's speed is ahistorical and every other ship has at least +1-2 knots on top of their fastest historical speed?  If that was the Case with the Constitution, it should be going at least 15 knots.  The Coni was ok how it was, why change it?  Because the Rakers wanted to make the Trinc king?  Because that is what it appears to me.  

 

This isn't something that needs to be addressed in the future in a future speed overhaul, it needs to be temporarily addressed now.  You changed its speed drastically recently, why can't you change it back?  Why does the Trinc go so much faster when realistically it did not?  Why can't you just change its speed back to what it was until the speed overhaul?   It is like what?  Editing a few lines of code?  Why can't you do that to bring purpose back to the ship?

 

What is the point of sailing the Constitution?  Right now there isn't one.  You will get outrun by sols.  It was ok how it was, now you cannot even think about sailing one and it is poor use of the developer's time and efforts who made it.  The Coni's pupose was meant to chase down any ship smaller than it and outrun anything it couldn't defeat.  Because you have other ships going so fast, it can't chase down any other ship, and SOLS can chase it down.  How does that work?  You will only be able to sail it in large groups in Trafalgars or in Events.  It is the mini half pretend sol because you have reduced its purpose to line fighting other Constitutions or protecting sol sterns from frigates and smaller ships.  It doesn't have any other purpose now. 

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Malachi    587
The Coni's pupose was meant to chase down any ship smaller than it, and outrun anything it couldn't defeat.

 

 

Coni was meant to seriously outgun anything smaller then herself, not to chase it down, which she couldn´t have done. SoLs being decidedly faster than Constitution is a joke, though.

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Prater    5,325

Coni was meant to seriously outgun anything smaller then herself, not to chase it down, which she couldn´t have done. SoLs being decidedly faster than Constitution is a joke, though.

 

 

Uhhh.   How many frigates could catch the Constitution?  How many tried?  HMS Shannon (Leda Class), couldn't catch up to the much heavier Constitution in light airs, which favors lighter ships.  The hull seed of the Coni is higher than shorter frigates, no?  Quote from the designer of the American 44 gun frigates:  "if others (frigates) should be in company, our frigates can always lead ahead and never be obliged to go into action, but on their own terms, except in a calm."

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Mr. Doran    355

 The Coni was ok how it was, why change it?  Because the Rakers wanted to make the Trinc king?  Because that is what it appears to me.  

 

Developers make Con as fast as Trinc = Rakers use Con

 

We all did when they cut the Trinc's speed and we will and everyone else will do it again. Why use anything but the super duper american frigate that turns faster than the trinc, shoots harder than the trinc, has thicker armor and more hull hp than the trinc, more sail hp than the trinc, more mast hp than the trinc, and more crew than the trinc. 

 

Choose con, no tradeoffs best ship ever in history!!
 
For now everyone will have to hybrid gank in trincs AND cons. 

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Prater    5,325

 

Developers make Con as fast as Trinc = Rakers use Con

 

We all did when they cut the Trinc's speed and we will and everyone else will do it again. Why use anything but the super duper american frigate that turns faster than the trinc, shoots harder than the trinc, has thicker armor and more hull hp than the trinc, more sail hp than the trinc, more mast hp than the trinc, and more crew than the trinc. 

 

Choose con, no tradeoffs best ship ever in history!!
 
For now everyone will have to hybrid gank in trincs AND cons. 

 

 

 

I didn't ask to make the Coni as fast as the Trinc.  Did I?  Nope.

 

 

 

For now everyone will have to hybrid gank in trincs AND cons. 

 

That is how it was.  Now that sols outrun the Coni, there is no reason to take it as a Solo ship.  Solo cruise during the War of 1812?  Not possible in Naval Action.

 

Trinc, the no con ship and the True Constitution that can outrun anything heavier than it and kill anything lighter.

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Mr. Doran    355

I didn't ask to make the Coni as fast as the Trinc.  Did I?  Nope.

 

Every speed buff to the Con or nerf bat taken to the trinc makes the trinc ever more useless..... sail your con made of fir and not live oak buddy. 

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Prater    5,325

Every speed buff to the Con or nerf bat taken to the trinc makes the trinc ever more useless..... sail your con made of fir and not live oak buddy. 

 

 

The Coni is useless.  Sail your own 19.5 Knot Trinc made of fir "buddy"  Tommy has one.

 

Let's give Gold Pellew's sights to everyone because I can't hit anything.  Let's nerf the Coni's speed so that sols catch it.  Let's enshrine my goto ship and my treatise. 

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TommyShelby    3,168

Having done very little research (compared to most others on these forums) i believe that the Constitution should be very close to if not as fast as Trincomalee. (Maybe faster? Most sources say Leda-class went a max of 13 knots while most sources say the Constitution went a max of 13+ knots. (Notice the plus with the Connie).

NB. When i say "Most sources" i'm referring to most sources when i google "Leda-Class frigate speed" and "USS Constitution speed". (As i said, i've done very little research compared to most others). 

Let's not forget that the real Constitution is the Live oak version and that is what the recorded speeds for the Constitution is based upon. By my logic that means that the live oak version should be atleast 13+ ? 

 

Also. The Constitution doesn't turn better than the Trincomalee and haven't for quite some time. :)

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maturin    5,454

Based on every source I've ever seen, Constitution, Leda-class and Belle Poule were all pretty much equivalent in performance. And Bellona was only a knot behind the lot of them.

 

If Constitution wasn't one of the two most famous sailing warships in history, you would probably want to ban it from the game to prevent the massive balance headache it causes.

 

If you ask me, we should just outlaw this speed arms race with the top-tier vessels. Building large vessels out of fir shouldn't make them any faster. Fir is for light ships and cheapskates, or for factions that have lost important resource ports.

 

Connie, Trinc and all the other fastest-in-class ships should be ineligible for speed bonuses in crafting and timber type. Maybe we can let them use one kind of speed mod (trim or copper plating), but that's it. There will still be diversity in speeds if other types of mod start to decrease speed, but the arms race will end. Alternately, they could start slower and only gain their current default speed with maximum speed properties in crafting.

 

This way, speed modding allows the other less-popular ships to compete with the current favorites, rather than just making the rich get richer.

 

 

 

 

Live Oak is 2 times heavier than normal oak - why suddenly it should be as fast or faster?

IRL you have to change your design in order to accommodate a major change in weight. Using heavy live oak scantlings in your average design would probably increase displacement and slow your ship down.

 

But Connie was designed to carry that weight, and float in the right place with live oak. Make her out of fir and she might jerk her masts out or fall apart.

 

Live oak can have a speed penalty, but it shouldn't apply to Connie.

 

 

 

 

 light airs, which favors lighter ships.

That's more an abstraction for the sake of gameplay than a solid principle. The American frigates were very good at ghosting along, whether from design, or their cotton sail. Light winds are when a tight weave in your sails really matters.

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NorthernWolves    1,309

The Constitution made 15 knots once leaving Malta in a strong wind, it's in her log book at the museum. She is most often attributed to 14 knots. You do see 13 knots mentioned as well. All of these situations were dependent on the wind at the time. It's why we see the Victory quoted at anywhere from 8 to 11 knots.

 

Are we even attempting to be historical anymore? That's the question, or are we picking and choosing which ships and which attributes of these ships to replicate faithfully and which ones to arbitrarily nerf or buff to fit a strict tiered class system?

 

If we want to be faithful to reality, here is what actually happened, and there is not a more perfect and well documented chase in the age of fighting sail with which to compare the speed of one ship in a chase against 5 others of various size across a range of wind conditions.

 

At sunrise on July 18 the British ships began sailing toward the Constitution, and the chase was on. 

 

In a 57 hour pursuit that started in light airs, fell to a dead calm, into light airs again, then to a strong breeze and then to a short squall the USS Constitution outran HMS Aeolus 32-gun, HMS Africa 64-gun, HMS Belvidera 36-gun, HMS Guerrière 38-gun and the HMS Shannon 38-gun Leda-class.

 

At one point during the kedging phase all the British boats were sent to tow the Shannon in an attempt to close the distance, but by morning the Constitution had extended the gap by 3 miles. When the breeze began to pick up she quickly opened a 6 mile gap. By the following morning it had grown to 12 miles.

 

Right now she would be overhauled by any of those vessels in the game.

 

At this point I'm just deflated over the whole affair, and I'm fine with giving her to the French and naming her the Acheron as Prater suggested.

 

Either make her as she really was or not at all.

 

The 'balance' you are seeking for Live Oak is found in real life unsurprisingly, it should be hard to find, purchase and craft with. Using it on ships that, like Maturin pointed out, aren't designed to be built of Live Oak should incur performance penalties. The peak performance of the Trinc should be with Teak, the Endymion of Fir and so on. Faithfully replicating the original blueprints should give you the best results. 

Directly tying speed to weight alone is flawed, it is much more complex than that and there are several posts on hull speed, hydrodynamics and sail area already.
 

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