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jodgi

Ship Speeds - Testing and Discussion

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

New player experience: "I'm going to make a fast frigate to hunt traders." Goes out in the OW with a fairly weak but fast frigate. Spots a group of Bellonas that give chase. Gets run down both in OW and instance. "Oh... But I thought..."

A superspeed Bellona is almost like a lion with no natural enemies. Even in it's "weak" configuration it can fight off everything smaller or run with ease from most things bigger and smaller.

If we hit the bello with the ugly stick the Connie will take it's place. That will be better as a squishy Connie isn't as dominating.

The problem with taking the nerf bat to the Bellona is that although it may cure the issue you raise here, with regards to speed, it in turn will affect the use of the ship. Presently the Bellona is the most used SOL in OW, which I believe is what was wanted to mirror the reality of the day. But it is only so popular because it can be made to achieve the high speeds required for the OW chases and at the same time still have the ability to fight. If you remove the ability to chase in the OW you may as well be out in a 1st rate as the only time you will use it to fight is when the enemy want to fight.

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Проверьте, пожалуйста Эссекс. Испанский рефит дал прибавку к максимуму по паспорту всего 0,1 узла.

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1 minute ago, Rolando said:

Проверьте, пожалуйста Эссекс. Испанский рефит дал прибавку к максимуму по паспорту всего 0,1 узла.

"Check, please Essex. The Spanish refit gave an increase to the maximum on the passport of just 0, 1 knot."

I presume "passport" relates to profile.

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19 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I presume "passport" relates to profile. 

"Passport" = EQUIPMENT ➡️ Maximum speed :)

Addition to the speed of L'Hermione from using the Spanish Rig Refit is 0.8 knots!

Edited by Rolando

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17 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The problem with taking the nerf bat to the Bellona is that although it may cure the issue you raise here, with regards to speed, it in turn will affect the use of the ship. Presently the Bellona is the most used SOL in OW, which I believe is what was wanted to mirror the reality of the day. But it is only so popular because it can be made to achieve the high speeds required for the OW chases and at the same time still have the ability to fight. If you remove the ability to chase in the OW you may as well be out in a 1st rate as the only time you will use it to fight is when the enemy want to fight.

Before the game was played so that most were sailing frigates 5th to 4th rates. There was maybe sometimes a Bellona in there. SOLs were difficult to master as those were so slow and often lost if left alone. This time SOL's were probably not good enough and today are maybe even too good.

In real life if I have understood this correctly, some historian can fix me here, frigates were the most common ships to sail, just like in Naval Action at some point. In real life some captains did not want a promotion from frigate to sol because they earned tons of money as a frigate captain. These ships were scouts and capturing enemy ships/traders.

If they simply decrease 1st to 3rd rate speeds to point that it is impossible to make gank Bellona, the game should get in far better balance.  SOL's would be once again war ships and not roaming frigates like those are today.  Sailing gank Bellona would mean that it cannot run away and gets swarmed by smaller frigates.

This way Bellona is sailed more often with support than alone. Bellona will still be very formidable enemy and good in OW PvP.

Not sure tho how other patches affect to this.

1st half 2016 in OW, you were able to see ships from Renommee to 1st rates. This time it was also nice that a new player who joined a clan was immediately able to contribute to clan activities and had PvP content. I think there were max ranked captains who loved Renommee and were sailing that to scout and tag etc. Now Renommee is trash.

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1 minute ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Before the game was played so that most were sailing frigates 5th to 4th rates. There was maybe sometimes a Bellona in there. SOLs were difficult to master as those were so slow and often lost if left alone. This time SOL's were probably not good enough and today are maybe even too good.

In real life if I have understood this correctly, some historian can fix me here, frigates were the most common ships to sail, just like in Naval Action at some point. In real life some captains did not want a promotion from frigate to sol because they earned tons of money as a frigate captain. These ships were scouts and capturing enemy ships/traders.

If they simply decrease 1st to 3rd rate speeds to point that it is impossible to make gank Bellona, the game should get in far better balance.  SOL's would be once again war ships and not roaming frigates like those are today.  Sailing gank Bellona would mean that it cannot run away and gets swarmed by smaller frigates.

This way Bellona is sailed more often with support than alone. Bellona will still be very formidable enemy and good in OW PvP.

Not sure tho how other patches affect to this.

1st half 2016 in OW, you were able to see ships from Renommee to 1st rates. This time it was also nice that a new player who joined a clan was immediately able to contribute to clan activities and had PvP content. I think there were max ranked captains who loved Renommee and were sailing that to scout and tag etc. Now Renommee is trash.

But this is what I am saying. Yes frigates were probably the more numerous ships especially in the Caribbean, but when it comes to line ships the 74's (3rd rates) were the most common. The problem is if you nerf the Bellona to bring her in line with speeds of other line ships then people will prefer to sail 1st rates rather than 3rd rates for line ship battles. The only thing that I can see at present that makes the Bellona popular is the ability to achieve speeds comparable to 4th and 5th rates. I'm not saying it is right, but just pointing out that if you want there to be more 3rd rates rather than 1st rates you have to give it some edge.

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2 hours ago, Dibbler said:

Thing is if you think a 5th rate should be as fast/faster than a 6th, then why should a 4th not be as fast/faster than a 5th etc etc...

Capping by rate max speed could work ok as sail profiles would create differences, but as i said maybe 0.5kt per rating maybe to much.

But the problem is not 7th 6th 5th etc. This game is about realism, this is not world of tanks, like tier10, tier5.

Please check what historicaly a frigate class was, and what a SOL was, you will see SOLs are unable to catch a frigate but a frigate class can catch a smaller ship.

Problem is SOLs are for fighting, it is a battle ship, attacking ground targets, attacking other SOLs, they won't chase other small ships, cause they can not.

On the other hand the ships so called fifth rates in this game were the Hunters. Therefore you should not harshly limit the hard speed limit of 5th rates, but SOLs sure can be limited.

So may be the speed cap can be %30 for 7th, %25 for 6th, %20 for a fifth rate, %15 3rd , %10 2nd and 1st rates. Everybody would laugh who produced a speed moded SOL like some of our in game SOLs, may be it would be considered crime and waste of very precious resources. So the ADMIRALITY would not permit more than %10 speed increase for a SOL as it is a Nation's Battleship, not owned by a single captain.

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6 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The problem is if you nerf the Bellona to bring her in line with speeds of other line ships then people will prefer to sail 1st rates rather than 3rd rates for line ship battles.

They could bring down speeds of all line ships + check the rest of the ships as well. This way Bellona would be still fastest SOL.

You still need speed in OW and having very slow 1st rate vs having Bellona that has still ok speed will favor Bellona for OW. This is how it was so don't see why it would not still be like this. Other patches may have changed this balance to make this false, hard to say directly as there has been so many.

I am not sure even if that ~1kn is going to be enough if Bellona can do 14.5kn. All ships from 4th to 5th rate has to fit in between Bellona and cap. Sure some ships are better upwind and others downwind so it makes some room here.

...

They could actually now balance all ships so that all have room to be in the game. Later introduce wind strength that will give bonuses for ships based on size of sail surface. This way they could achieve short term goals and introduce wind strength later. All should join nicely together.

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1 minute ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

They could bring down speeds of all line ships + check the rest of the ships as well. This way Bellona would be still fastest SOL.

You still need speed in OW and having very slow 1st rate vs having Bellona that has still ok speed will favor Bellona for OW. This is how it was so don't see why it would not still be like this. Other patches may have changed this balance to make this false, hard to say directly as there has been so many.

I am not sure even if that ~1kn is going to be enough if Bellona can do 14.5kn. All ships from 4th to 5th rate has to fit in between Bellona and cap. Sure some ships are better upwind and others downwind so it makes some room here.

...

They could actually now balance all ships so that all have room to be in the game. Later introduce wind strength that will give bonuses for ships based on size of sail surface. This way they could achieve short term goals and introduce wind strength later. All should join nicely together.

Even bringing down the speeds of all SOL's would not change the fact that a 3rd rate is no match for a 1st rate in the game (yes I know a skilled player can do it), so if you make it so that 3rd rates can only really fight with other line ships then people will choose to sail 1st rates instead of 3rd's as there is not that much of a barrier to obtaining one over the other. 

I agree with what people are saying about the speed of the Bellona, but pointing out that just nerfing the speed without making other changes will make people revert to sailing 1st rates as line ships.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

Even bringing down the speeds of all SOL's would not change the fact that a 3rd rate is no match for a 1st rate in the game (yes I know a skilled player can do it), so if you make it so that 3rd rates can only really fight with other line ships then people will choose to sail 1st rates instead of 3rd's as there is not that much of a barrier to obtaining one over the other. 

I agree with what people are saying about the speed of the Bellona, but pointing out that just nerfing the speed without making other changes will make people revert to sailing 1st rates as line ships.

It can be that you are right as there has been so many changes between now and "then".

In the past 1st rates were so slow that you had to go out in a big fleet to even dare to take it out. Fast 3rd rates were able to sail more or less with smaller ships. Fast 3rd rates were never able to catch fast ships but were able to stay in a fleet and offered tons of fire power. I think that when you saw a SOL everyone knew it is a big and dangerous ship.

Now that I wrote that..  Think about it, a Bellona was a big and dangerous ship offering tons of fire power for a fleet?  Today it is closer to standard gank ship, smallest ship in OW fleet?  Sad, what else can I say.

Not sure but it can be that SOLs were more expensive that time that most did not want to lose them in standard OW battles. Also were not far superior like Bellona today. People took care from their SOLs.  Also 3rd rates had 3 duras and 1st rates had only one.  With 1st rates you lost all regular upgrades as well.

Notice that duras and upgrade system affected way more to the game than just duras and upgrade system. I don't think devs even understood what kind of mess they made with all their changes. In the end everything is connected. Devs have been throwing new features or big changes one after another.

So yes, in one way there is a change that you are right but I feel lucky about this.

edit.

To make this a game we would still need to start balancing from somewhere. I suppose it would be a first step and then see from there what else to change.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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If you're in your fifth rate and want to run from a downwind speedy Bellona, simply run upwind! As long as you haven't gimped your own sailing profile with downwind speed mods, or are sailing some silly slow tanky beast, you'll escape. Its that easy. :D

Oh and speed third rates were common before. I've had a fast hunting Bellona going on 1.5 years now. The old build of choice was Gold Bermuda/Speed/Pirate Refit Bonus with studdingsails (I had blue ones), copper plating, and speedtrim. That would hit about 14.2 knots at 135* with long guns + carronades. Bellonas have always been popular because they hit the "sweet spot" between speed/agility and firepower/tank for those of us who like to have heavy guns in a fight. I have cannons large enough to demast anything that floats and isn't running iron-mast mods, I have enough HP to survive a broadside or two square on from a first rate--or combined broadsides from smaller ships, enough thickness and a good hull shape to bounce shots, enough turn rate to foil would-be stern campers if I handle my ship well, and enough speed to run down many targets downwind and escape from most standard speed builds. But don't for a second think Bellona is the only ship that can be that fast or has those qualities.

Plenty of other ships (looking at Renommee, L'Hermione, Santa Cecilia, Indefatigable, Agamemnon, Ingermanland, Wapen Von Hamburg, Third Rate, Bucentaure, and St. Pavel) can all achieve the same or 14kn or higher speeds at multiple points of sail with the same upgrades as the speed Bellona...and sometimes with a heavier build too! Not only that, but the lighter ships (Renom, Hermione, SC, Indefatigable, Ingermanland...) can achieve 15kn+ speeds in battle and higher speeds in OW (due to their base speed + speed mods being higher than a Bellona with its base speed + same speed mods) as well. So there's no excuse for a skilled frigate captain to be run down in OW or in battle by a downwind speed Bellona except incompetence, overconfidence, or a poor choice in his ship construction.

I don't really think there's a problem with purpose build speed ships being fast. You sacrifice much in sailing profile, room for other combat upgrades, and spend a hefty amount of gold to make them that fast, and they can still be run down by a fleet of 5th rates that are cheaper to build and equip and sacrifice less in sailing profile. But if I were to recommend a nerf to Elite Spanish Rig/Spanish Rig, I'd suggest increasing the staysail/jibsail penalty to -0.40 and trying that. Thats 10% more penalty than we have now and should slow ships down a fair bit more when going upwind. 

 

All that being said, I still preferred our old upgrade system where most things were craftable (should have all been craftable) and we only had a few mods of each type. Unfortunately, with the time and effort devs have put into the current system, I think its safe to say, regarding our old system, that that ship sank and became a wildlife reef a while ago. It be too late to alter course now mateys. ;) 

EDIT: attached an image showing Bellona's inferior speed and sailing profile when compared to a slow frigate and a fast frigate. And one showing her compared to two fourth rates that need some buffing.

f49af80123573564f656ab2060bda123.png

 

 

Now here is something that I think is an issue. Look at how similar these speeds and profiles are. Is it any wonder that Agamemnon and Constitution aren't as popular a choice for 4th rate speed builds? Ingermanland and Wapen fair much better when compared to Bellona--having points of sail with a distinct advantage in speed. Comparing these three, Constitution is barely 1/2 knot faster than Bellona and Agamemnon has an even smaller advantage. Constitution and Agamemnon, IMO, need a small buff in sailing profile: Constitution for upwind speed and Agamemnon for downwind speed.

8ebb0ec89d4765eea03a3a0ae352b52a.png

Edited by William Death
Added pictures
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16 hours ago, William Death said:

If you're in your fifth rate and want to run from a downwind speedy Bellona, simply run upwind! As long as you haven't gimped your own sailing profile with downwind speed mods, or are sailing some silly slow tanky beast, you'll escape. Its that easy. :D....

https://sites.google.com/view/speedtrials/all-chart?authuser=0

Use that, should help to fast understand what is the current situation.

You pretty well explained why Bellona and stacking upgrades are broken.

+2 years ago I don't remember that there were that many gank Bellonas.

Hamburg and Ingermanland having a bit of room but basically from all other aspects are not as good as Bellona. Why everyone sails a Bellona and not for example Ingermanland right?

And please don't say me that you are defending the current system. Anyone who sails a Bellona and defends the current system..  I really don't know what to say.

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Why don't you not understand, it is not about Bellona. It is about OP mods and stacking them together. Hard limit for speed increase being too high. Spanish and Pirate Rigs being too effective.

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50 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Why don't you not understand, it is not about Bellona. It is about OP mods and stacking them together. Hard limit for speed increase being too high. Spanish and Pirate Rigs being too effective.

Did you even go to https://sites.google.com/view/speedtrials/all-chart?authuser=0

Place there all 4th rates and Bellona. This should make you to understand the situation pretty fast. Then you can start looking for other issues from that chart.

edit.

Those upgrades affect to ships in the same way right?  You get pretty accurate picture from max speeds from that graph. Then you can mix upgrades to make faster ships tankier and Bellona faster and see how those do vs each other.

Compare Bellona mast thickness/hp + hull + firepower + turn rate + etc. Check Jodgi's graph.

We should have a place to compare ship statistics. There are "hidden" values. Acceleration/Declaration times, sail/jib % and yard power...

Someone has graphs and charts from these?  I don't have good ones so don't want to link here.

@admin maybe you should do the same.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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46 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

have been there many times plus other sites.

So let's nerf Bellona, what about WASA which has much better sailing profile?

I say bring a max speed cap to the ships, not only 15.5 kt limit, but ;

1st and 2nd rates bring a max speed cap %10 (your base build can not be more than %10 faster)

3rd and 4th rates max speed cap %15 

5th and 6th rates max sped cap %20

7th %25

Of course these numbers can be fine tuned. Additionally NERF the overpowered Spanish and Pirate Rigs. These refits give huge speed increase according to wind, which is much more than most of the speed mods combined.

@Cmdr RideZ could I explain myself ?

 

Check this :) 

 

Edited by AeRoTR

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15 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

So let's nerf Bellona, what about WASA which has much better sailing profile?

I say bring a max speed cap to the ships, not only 15.5 kt limit, but ;

1st and 2nd rates bring a max speed cap %10 (your base build can not be more than %10 faster)

3rd and 4th rates max speed cap %15 

5th and 6th rates max sped cap %20

7th %25

Like I said earlier, decrease speed for all ships from 1st to 3rd rate. After devs should go through all ships and see that those fit nicely in the game. This way it will make a game with plenty of options, a better game. Maybe not more realistic but a better game. If we want to make this sound more realistic, well, winds are weak. Later add seasons and wind strength ;)

Why not fix directly stacking upgrades? Especially speed upgrades. That would not do the same as separated caps?

When a ship has good amount of HP and decent speed you can add speed upgrades that decrease you hull HP. When a ship does not have hull HP it is harder to do this + compare this to firepower.

It can be that some ships in real life had too weak structure to support water pressure from very high speeds. Am not an expert but is what I have understood. In one way there could be different caps for different ships based on this. Someone who actually knows about the subject could also fix me here.

Caps can fix the issue but I would start from the stacking issue which is the one that creates these issues.

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This is a bit offtopic but related to the subject.

Before it was dangerous to sail Bellona alone. Smaller ships were able to rake you and you were simply not maneuverable enough. You had to be a bit more skilled captain to counter these attacks. SOLs were probably even too weak this time. Bigger ships were harder to master than small once which created a good skill based balance. Today we don't have this.

They have introduced very high chain damage and left weak masts for smaller ships, compared to mast thickness and penetration from bigger ships. This will make the old and I would say better balance to be harder to achieve. They probably should have decrease chain damage instead of creating the system they did. Masts are not good still, supporting big ships way too much.

This means that Bellona is much better now than before in relation to smaller ships, even if we decrease speeds. So today it can unload chains on smaller ships and those cannot really do anything for big ships anymore. Those also lose masts so easily because mast thickness is so low.

If they want to keep all these modifications they have to find a new balance which I believe is a very difficult task as before Naval Action was an excellent game. Very hard to make twice an excellent game, especially from the same genre. I don't understand how they were able to achieve so good balance before and now they have ~nothing. Were they lucky the first time?

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15 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

https://sites.google.com/view/speedtrials/all-chart?authuser=0

Use that, should help to fast understand what is the current situation.

You pretty well explained why Bellona and stacking upgrades are broken.

+2 years ago I don't remember that there were that many gank Bellonas.

Hamburg and Ingermanland having a bit of room but basically from all other aspects are not as good as Bellona. Why everyone sails a Bellona and not for example Ingermanland right?

And please don't say me that you are defending the current system. Anyone who sails a Bellona and defends the current system..  I really don't know what to say.

I posted two images of Bellona's profile compared to some other frigates and 4th rates in the same post of mine that you quoted. I used a different tool, but it pulls from the same data as Jodgi's sailing profile tool. If you look, Bellona's profile is not nearly as good as the average frigate, and is also a fair bit different (not necessarily better or worse, just different strengths) from Wapen and Ingermanland. The only problem I see is that Constitution and Agamemon do not have good enough sailing profiles compared to the other 4th rates and Bellona. They could use some buffing (Connie upwind and Aggy downwind). 

Here's one comparing Bellona (lavender/purple line) to some 5th rates (most of them, in fact) 1fa40737cf42ecc4c1cbdb5252754143.png

Doesn't look OP to me. Any speed mod you put on the Bellona will have an even greater effect on the frigates because they have a higher base speed and get to use the more powerful 4-5th rate books instead of weaker 1-3rd rate books.

Side note: People do indeed hunt in 14.5kn+ Ingermanlands, I've got a few and I know some other players who also sail that ship because it does most of what Bellona can do, but is faster and has the better 4-5th rate skillbooks available to it.

Bellona is not the end-all be-all PvP ship. People mistake it for that because it is commonly used for PvP and can be made fast. Not because it is always fast. You sacrifice a lot to equip your ship to reach those speeds: nearly half or more of your slots are used for speed mods, you are left with very little room to put turning, boarding, gunnery, sailing, etc. upgrades on your ship. Compare that to the Bellona that cruises comfortably at 12.5 knots and is mostly fighting fit. To beat a speed Bellona 1v1 all he has to do is stand his ground. If uneven "gank" fights with speed Bellonas are the issue here then...I don't know what to say. Sail a faster ship, sail smarter, or you will be ganked. If its not speed Bellonas, it'll be speed Endys, or Surprises, or Indefatigables, or Constitutions, or whatever ship can be equipped with enough speed for a hunter (almost any ship).

Bellona has always been popular. If you nerf one of her best points (significantly faster than other lineships) then why even bother sailing it over other lineships? I'll take a Santi thats only a little bit slower but has way more firepower and crew, thanks. 

Regarding upgrades: as I said in another post in this topic, removing most upgrades and consolidating to 1-3 of each type (all craftable) would be the best option, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

12 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

They have introduced very high chain damage and left weak masts for smaller ships, compared to mast thickness and penetration from bigger ships. This will make the old and I would say better balance to be harder to achieve. They probably should have decrease chain damage instead of creating the system they did. Masts are not good still, supporting big ships way too much.

This means that Bellona is much better now than before in relation to smaller ships, even if we decrease speeds. So today it can unload chains on smaller ships and those cannot really do anything for big ships anymore. Those also lose masts so easily because mast thickness is so low.

If they want to keep all these modifications they have to find a new balance which I believe is a very difficult task as before Naval Action was an excellent game. Very hard to make twice an excellent game, especially from the same genre. I don't understand how they were able to achieve so good balance before and now they have ~nothing. Were they lucky the first time?

Chain damage is very high, but you are limited to 4 broadsides total and you have unlimited sail repairs. Its quite easy to draw a battle out long enough that your enemy wastes all his chain and you can keep spamming sail repairs. Now thats not a good system, repairs should be limited too, but that is straying perhaps even further off topic. (although it is a very good topic to discuss and I've made my opinion on it known in a few threads)

Regarding masts: we finally have a decent system: low thickness and high(ish) HP. This means that small guns can take masts off of big ships. Just the other day I demasted an Agamemnon with my Renommee 1v1. I was able to take his lower masts with plain ball shot through long 9s. Granted I had to be a bit close but it was doable.

 

Some values for reference (I'll use Bellona since some players are so hung up on her being OP):

Bellona's lower mast thickness: 102

Long 12pd cannon penetration at 50m: 104    at 100m:  100   so somewhere between 50-100m, you lose pen with 12pdrs.

Long 18pd cannon penetration at 50m: 109    at 100m:  106   at 250m: 94   so its somewhere between 100-250m that 18s lose pen.

Long 24pd cannon penetration at 50m: 120    at 100m:  116   at 250m: 106  at 500m: 90  so somewhere between 250-500m.

 

It just so happens that there are frigates and fourth rates that carry those size cannons. This means Bellona can be demasted by smaller ships! And thats not even looking at the values for topmasts and topgallants, which are much thinner.

Of course Bellona will easily demast smaller ships, but the same can be said about ANY ship that carries big guns. Would you rather have it so that masts never fall when shot with ball from the same size cannon that the ship carries? We tried that with the iron masts patches and it wasn't liked. We also tried paper masts (realistic) but too many people complained.

For the first time in a very long time, masts are finally in the right spot.

 

TL/DR: A determined 5th rate skipper can either outrun the Bellona and deny an engagement outright, or perhaps if the Bellona isn't playing well, the 5th rate may win with some good stern rakes and a boarding. Or a demast. Or hugging the side and staying beneath the Bellona's guns. In that engagement (5th vs Bellona) the 5th rate controls the battle. If he gets sunk, its because he chose to fight and the Bellona capitalized on that. The absolute only way the Bellona can force the 5th rate to fight is if the 5th is a slow build and the Bellona is not, or the 5th has sailed poorly, lost the weather gauge, or is trapped by the shoreline/another fleet. At that point, not to sound like a broken record of so many other "mighty PvP'n Captains" but... 'git gud.' :P

 

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15 hours ago, William Death said:

Bellona has always been popular. If you nerf one of her best points (significantly faster than other lineships) then why even bother sailing it over other lineships? I'll take a Santi thats only a little bit slower but has way more firepower and crew, thanks. 

I should answer to your post in a long way but it would take plenty of time so I skip it for now and try to keep it short. I appreciate your time tough. There are simply too many things that they changed to wreck the earlier more balanced Naval Action.  You only told a partial truth here, there is so much more to the subject. So so much more. One question is why you only told a partial truth? Also you wrote it from perspective like you were defending Bellona?  I was not speaking only from runaway speed. You have to also check how good ships are in combat and what are the "rules" right now. If you always play runaway game then I understand why you told partial truth. If you are there to win fights, then I don't understand.

Will make one example for you. You speak from shooting Bellonas masts and simply left out that all cannons from Bellona can penetrate your masts? vs 5th rate absolutely devastating mast damage. Bigger the ship more mast HP it has? You can shoot with your tiny cannons Bellonas masts as much as you want but if Bellona captain has practiced at all mast raking/sniping he will absolutely wreck your masts. I think that even every combat patch there has been is supporting directly or indirectly big ships like Bellona.

Oh man, these bad design decisions always make me pissed and make me rant. I say only one thing more as my negative personality always makes everyone sad. More hull damage, slower the ship. Is this a patch to try to make gank ships less useful? You know, have a guess, does this affect more to small ships or big ships? 5th rate and Bellona exchanging a broadside, how much will it affect to their speeds? Bellona had way more firepower and 5th rate less hull HP, so will it affect more to 5th rate? (Notice that this feature alone does not sound bad. It is when devs create new features after another and do big changes without any modifications to keep it in balance.)

All these changes also make it better to gank people than have good fights. When they should make it so that smaller fleets have some changes vs bigger fleets they do all the time the opposite.


In the part I quoted from your post you explain pretty well the current Bellona issue.  Let me do it for you...

"I'll take a Bellona thats only a little slower but has way more firepower and crew, thanks."

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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