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Ship Speeds - Testing and Discussion

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2 minutes ago, woodenfish said:

I've started to plot out what ships will do from the api info. Am I right in thinking that the api ship info is an oak/oak build?

http://royaltraderscompany.com/ships.php

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No, api speeds are before wood multipliers. Closest you can get is fir/wo.

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I guess I'm just going to have to make a bunch of the same ship and see what difference each makes... unless someone has the percentage difference each wood makes to speed, thickness and hp?

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53 minutes ago, woodenfish said:

unless someone has the percentage difference each wood makes to speed, thickness and hp?

https://na-map.netlify.com

(Tools - wood)

Maybe someone else has the sheet handy?

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Cool. I knew if I asked someone would already have the info. Now time to make a ship config tool so that you can see what it does...

Mind you, looking at the figures, none of them seems to be 0, so I don't know what to refer them to, by that I mean fir framing have 3% less Structure HP than what?

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51 minutes ago, woodenfish said:

fir framing have 3% less Structure HP than what?

Base values, someone else needs to point you towards them as I haven't concerned myself too much with that.

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Went through sailing profiles.

From 3rd to 1st rate speed should be decreased. A bit simplified here but from gameplay perspective probably worth it.

RST website, if you leave there all 4th rates and Bellona.  Bellona is like a 4th rate with superior firepower and durability. Do we see many reasons why not to sail a Bellona?

Pavels profile is closer to something that should be Bellonas profile. This way plenty of room left for 4th rates to fit in.

You can also do so that you make tanky 5th and 4th rates to match Bellona.  Then make fast Bellonas to get closer to 5th and 4th raters.  Compare firepower, durability and speed.

...

Another option if you don't want to touch speeds too much could be to have regional wind strength. For example from 1 to 5.

1. 5th rates get no speed penalty.

2. 4th rates get no speed penalty.

3. etc...

 

Wind strength should be more often 1 or 2 than 3 and more.

We already have regional lines so should not be a big thing to implement. Some graphical indicator to describe wind strength next to compass. Maybe later make water animation to show wind strength as well.

Even with wind strength it can be that it would not harm to make 3rd to 1st rates slightly slower.

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32 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

From 3rd to 1st rate speed should be decreased. A bit simplified here but from gameplay perspective probably worth it.

I agree, but this will probably be met with resistance:

33 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Bellona is like a 4th rate with superior firepower and durability. Do we see many reasons why not to sail a Bellona?

Some argue that 3rds including the Bellona should be the most prevalent ship. From what I've read in these forums there are tons of historical sources that support this.

Wood choices, books and mods plays heavily into throwing vanilla profiles out of whack and I cringe at the 14.5 (and beyond?) Bellona fad.

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35 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Some argue that 3rds including the Bellona should be the most prevalent ship. From what I've read in these forums there are tons of historical sources that support this.

Wood choices, books and mods plays heavily into throwing vanilla profiles out of whack and I cringe at the 14.5 (and beyond?) Bellona fad.

I agree with you but...

I have accused people from cherry picking realistic/unrealistic features so that it supports the best their personal playstyle. This change would not support my personal playstyle but I have to admit that here I would pick my cherry.

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Spent some more time checking sailing profiles.

Bellona issues stay as said before. Definitely a game breaking. Don't really understand why this forum is not on barricades because of this. That 14.5kn speed is bad.

@admin made new sailing profiles and algorithms to make it realistic but forgot to make a game? Hard to see any other logical reason why to do this.

You can remove like ~1kn from 1st to 3rd rate speeds + at least partially not stacking speed upgrades.

If Bellona would be fixed there will be other ships doing the same but those ships are not covering all ships under Bellona.

Cargo hold size and weight are also making combat ships to do trade. I remember when people were crying that their combat ships cannot catch traders. At the same time there was combat ships and traders in the game + pirate and pirate hunters + Other speeds than Bellona speeds were useful.

Introducing big cargo holds for combat ships, repair kits in the hold, speed decreased by weight, speed caps, fast Bellona and probably more. This chain of changes simplified the game. Maybe more realistic but still a worse game than before.

There was a day when Renommee was a good scout, it had a purpose in this game. New players in their Renommees had a place in end game. It can be that it is more realistic now but from game point of view it is less interesting and less fun.

After 2 more years there will be only Santisima which will do ganking, OW PvP, Port Battles, scouting, pirate, pirate hunting, Trading, etc? This is hopefully exaggerated but will this make my point clear @admin? How good game this would be?

Sailing physics, wind pushing ships more realistic. You are able to make really nice realistic features. It can be that you are allowing some realistic features to overrun all that made NA an excellent game. The same thing maybe happened with repair kits. You wanted to implement more realistic repair kits and while implementing that you started to break other features at the same time.

...

edit.

Traders were fast, pirates were fast. Pirates running from combat ships. You needed a pirate hunting ship to hunt pirates or then heavier escort ships that often had a good change vs fast pirate ships. This does not exists any more. I am not saying it had to be exactly this but it was additional way to play the game.

You introduced PvP marks and I told multiple times that don't give PvP marks from traders. Players not even interested to capture traders but instead sink em.

Multiple changes lead to destruction of one working an optional way to play it. Not only sailing profiles but also weight system. What new from gameplay perspective you were able to introduce at the same time?

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Spent some more time checking sailing profiles.

....

You introduced PvP marks and I told multiple times that don't give PvP marks from traders. Players not even interested to capture traders but instead sink em.

 

Whats bad is stacking and sail force mods.

Thats just one mod (not even elite and look at the speed difference. Its 14% faster at some points. The disadvantge (-jib force) is no disadvantage because it kicks in when less than 90° but if its pimped you dont have to sail that that angles.

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Xebec with elite pirate rig refit still max speed at 85% sails!!!!!!

 

Traders can dump their cargo. And when you fought your first empty indiaman in a yacht you will embrace the marks. I agree there is no challenge to fight traders with a bellona. But thats a reward problem. Reward should be given according to BR ratio. If its even or disadvantage then give reward. If you overpower = no reward.

Edited by z4ys
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The spanish and pirate refits need a nerf, stacking cap for speed also needs a nerf. I find it silly to chase, speed moded enemy in my 5th rate while a Bellona sailing just next to me with the same speed as me :)

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58 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

I find it silly to chase, speed moded enemy in my 5th rate while a Bellona sailing just next to me with the same speed as me :)

New player experience: "I'm going to make a fast frigate to hunt traders." Goes out in the OW with a fairly weak but fast frigate. Spots a group of Bellonas that give chase. Gets run down both in OW and instance. "Oh... But I thought..."

A superspeed Bellona is almost like a lion with no natural enemies. Even in it's "weak" configuration it can fight off everything smaller or run with ease from most things bigger and smaller.

If we hit the bello with the ugly stick the Connie will take it's place. That will be better as a squishy Connie isn't as dominating.

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@jodgi so we should not hit the Bellona, but reduce effectiveness of mod stacking, plus nerf spanish and pirate refits ;)

 

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 Perhaps the max speed cap should be reduced as the rate of ships increase, so 15.5kt for 7th, 15.0 kt for 6th, 14.5 for 5th etc

 Maybe 0.5kt  per rate is to much but the general principle could work.

.......Awaits cries of noooooo from the big ship speed boat brigade :D .

 

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
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14 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

@jodgi so we should not hit the Bellona, but reduce effectiveness of mod stacking, plus nerf spanish and pirate refits ;)

 

I don't care what we do. Anything that dampens speedmodding is good in my book, anything.

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I see the problem as a SOL problem,  I think a 5th rate can go as fast or faster than a 6th and 7th rate, but acceleration may be the case.

But SOLs can sometimes be the bigger BLACK PEARLS which dominate the pvp .

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6 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

I see the problem as a SOL problem,  I think a 5th rate can go as fast or faster than a 6th and 7th rate, but acceleration may be the case.

But SOLs can sometimes be the bigger BLACK PEARLS which dominate the pvp .

 

Thing is if you think a 5th rate should be as fast/faster than a 6th, then why should a 4th not be as fast/faster than a 5th etc etc...

Capping by rate max speed could work ok as sail profiles would create differences, but as i said maybe 0.5kt per rating maybe to much.

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I am not saying there is anything bad at making as realistic sailing profiles as possible and then test it. The issue is that if you don't eventually ever check if the new values are good or bad.

They could do it so that they introduce wind strength that is changing and defining speed bonus based on sails. This takes development time from other things and then has to be tested etc. Could have regional and seasonal wind strengths with random included but it can be that this would take plenty of time to study and implement. This could fix the issue and maybe keep these more realistic values.

Faster way is to save the current ones as a reference for more realistic values. Try to set ship speeds so that different ships have room to exist in the game. Even if they would introduce changing wind strength they would have to do this for that system as well.

In the end it is not enough to reduce 1st to 3rd rate speeds but this would be clearly an improvement.  They should check all ships and see that those have a place to be good at least to some point of wind, when compared to their other capabilities. For gameplay purposes this would be good enough, for now.

More you can stack upgrades more difficult it is to balance. If a Bellona can be upgraded to have superior firepower, speed, durability, maneuverability VS for example Trincomalee -> can do everything better than it..  I don't know if that is realistic or not but that much I know that it makes a bad game.

+

They have to fix combat because it has lost balance. Implemented new features and radical balance changers but never stop to test all their changes to verify that it works. Make tournaments or ask community to make tournaments to get help in this. Give paints / ships as rewards.

They should make content outside safe zones because there are none, improve RvR end game, check OW PvP balance, check upgrade balance, etc.

Why faster way to fix this would be good enough.

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I think the biggest elephant is definitely the sail force mods. When spanish and pirate went for 3% force to 15% and 30%(for elite) it really broke sailing profiles.

I don't see anyway way to balance sail force mods and I believe they should be dropped from the game or changed. If changed they should be similar to the bovenwinds mod but give slightly different bonuses to be unique and play to the national identity.

Edited by Teutonic
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Don't forget that mods are scheduled for rebalancing. Good ideas might make features in a few months 

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