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Ship Speeds - Testing and Discussion

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4 minutes ago, jodgi said:

As long as you know that API speeds has been true down to 0.1-0.2 knots along the entire profile. We've done manual checks to keep it that way. Please let us know if you find discrepancies as we can't check all of them all the time. (fir/wo without guns or hold is completely vanilla as far as speed is concerned)

speeds are fine in the API, all current gameplay numbers 

we were referring to messages like "I have found some 0.5 number here in the player tower damage (no longer in game, but in API) on the sunset sea trials map (no longer in-game, but in API) which also affected the battle circle of death (no longer in game, but in API)

Basically - if you see a strange number that you cannot easily explain in the api its safe to assume that it does not work

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16 minutes ago, admin said:

speeds are fine in the API, all current gameplay numbers 

we were referring to messages like "I have found some 0.5 number here in the player tower damage (no longer in game, but in API) on the sunset sea trials map (no longer in-game, but in API) which also affected the battle circle of death (no longer in game, but in API)

Basically - if you see a strange number that you cannot easily explain in the api its safe to assume that it does not work

I know.

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22 minutes ago, jodgi said:

As long as you know that API speeds has been true down to 0.1-0.2 knots along the entire profile. We've done manual checks to keep it that way. Please let us know if you find discrepancies as we can't check all of them all the time. (fir/wo without guns or hold is completely vanilla as far as speed is concerned)

For sure. I use two guidelines myself when using the Speed Trials info.

1. The speed in the curve is absolute. Variations will occur. The 0.05/0.2 interval seems on the spot.

2. Player input will not correlate to the absolute value of the curve at all times. Expectations are moot in most cases, especially when NOT manually adjusting for the wind rotation ( 90% of the cases ).

Manual trimming being an example, both in running speed and in turning speed.

Tip: less rudder, more yard work will help sailors out there get to the best performances and sometimes go beyond the envelope.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

If and once wind strength is added to the game (changing from light to heavy) the puzzle pieces will all come in their place. 

Does this mean, that you will implement different wind forces?

... and that there will be waves of different size?

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3 hours ago, admin said:

That's exactly what we did last patch
Ship sail plans are now based on the class mast and yard dimensions based on the max possible masts and yards for the that ships hull  (it is in patch notes)
Speeds (max speeds) are derived from best possible trims for the ships. Such calculations can be found in majority of shipbuilding books of that era.
You could derive yard lengths mast lengths and ideally trimmed sail plans from those books (some books contain actual numbers, that can be averaged and used to derive other ships where you only know the hull size)

In the future before posting comments like yours  - think twice. And ask first/shoot second because maybe you could be wrong?

My argument is that basing speeds on sail area is a bad idea, whether that sail area is based on historical standardized dimensions or the in-game models. Because the result is a bunch of ships that all act the same. The speeds were better before, and well-adapted to make up for the lack of variable wind strength.

But it's pretty pointless for me to offer feedback now that the coders have already done the work. There's not really any way for me to be helpful, since I just get accused of hating, when it's too late to make a difference anyhow.

 

Quote

Name at least one other game with leeweay, sternway and yards? Sometimes people think things are dumb (simple) because they don't see the light or reason for that decisio

I'm not a reviewer; I can't praise the leeway in every post I make.

I just react to good old features being removed.

 

Quote

If we went the other way (balance for heavy wind)  fastest ship should be Ocean
(because of max hull speed is a function of waterline length and that ship has one of the largest sail important hull shape functions).

No 1st Rate ever went 14 knots because of their hullform, and hullform is entirely ignored by all these new calculations.

Hull speed isn't really relevant to frigates either, because no large frigate ever reached hullspeed. Very broadly speaking, speed correlates with the sail area:displacement ratio. SOLs had the lowest ratios and smaller vessels had the highest ratios, but they were limited by hullspeed to some extent.

IRL Surprise was slow and Endymion was fast. Sail area wasn't the reason.

Quote

Anyways.
Our wind is now light - so current speeds are not really a-historical. (light ships are faster at light winds)
and if you look at our sea - wind is INDEED light. Thus smaller ships would be faster than heavier ships.

If and once wind strength is added to the game (changing from light to heavy) the puzzle pieces will all come in their place.

If wind strength is added. Until then, the balance has just been changed in a way I don't like.

IRL a brig is almost never faster than a frigate. Maybe when the wind is 2 knots. The light winds thing was mostly an exaggeration/oversimplification that I proposed so that variable wind strength could benefit game balance and vessel diversity. The idea was that heavy ships would get a penalty in light winds.

But instead we're getting 13 kt brigs that will all go 15.5 kts when people put speed mods on them.

Edited by maturin
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5 hours ago, jodgi said:

Added updated plot.ly chart with double click to isolate one profile, hopefully without bugs this time.

zomfg!

 

Edit: Look how dull the frigates look now.

Edited by maturin

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Is this the return of p frig and surprise? According to chart p frig is faster then any other frig at 135+ degrees and surp returned as king of upwind

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4 hours ago, Zoky said:

Is this the return of p frig and surprise? According to chart p frig is faster then any other frig at 135+ degrees and surp returned as king of upwind

Renomee and Cerb are a bit faster at 135, and L'Hermione is about the same.

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The nerf of the trinco's Sailprofile  is completly devasting...

Before the nerf happens weve got 2 fast boats..

Endymion fastest frigate downwind (exeption ond 180 degress if i remember right=

Trinco fastest frigate upwind...

That was a good deal... both ships had theyre Advantages... now its completly stupid... a trinco is nearly at every angle slower then the endymion and it has no Stern chaser so there is anyway no chance to escape.. before the changes it was much better.

 

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17 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Frigates are pretty much copy paste of each other.

Before only the endy was viable and I know it's the only 5th rate Prussia sailed. Now this change has made the Trinco viable. 

I'm all about unique sailing profiles when it makes sense. I think historically the endy was only good at a very narrow point of a sail? In Na it was great everywhere. 

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1 minute ago, Flinch said:

Before only the endy was viable and I know it's the only 5th rate Prussia sailed. Now this change has made the Trinco viable. 

I'm all about unique sailing profiles when it makes sense. I think historically the endy was only good at a very narrow point of a sail? In Na it was great everywhere. 

I don't think you really used Trinc before, because it was much better than now. Also, Surprise was a better sailor before than Endymion.

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Site updated.

The Hermies were made a tad faster and wasa a smidge slower.

Edited by jodgi

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Site updated.

The Hermies were made a tad faster and wasa a smidge slower.

Hi Jodgi,

I am seeing +0.2 knt speed buff on the Hermoine, Santa Cecilia and the Wasa.  Turn buffs on the Conni (.04), Indefatigable (.04), Ingermanland (.05), Hermoine (0.10), Santa Cecilia (0.07), Wappen (0.05) and Wasa (0.04).  Some significant mast thickness buffing on the 6th rate traders. Minor mast and side thickness buffs on the Hermonie, Santa Cecilia and Wasa.

I uploaded the Naval Action Explorer version 2.1 for review:

http://www.northeastliquidators.com/Naval Action/NA Explorer/

I was working the Shops tab to show the contracts as I saw some people asking for that info.

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1 hour ago, SS Minnow said:

Hi Jodgi,

I am seeing +0.2 knt speed buff on the Hermoine, Santa Cecilia and the Wasa.  Turn buffs on the Conni (.04), Indefatigable (.04), Ingermanland (.05), Hermoine (0.10), Santa Cecilia (0.07), Wappen (0.05) and Wasa (0.04).  Some significant mast thickness buffing on the 6th rate traders. Minor mast and side thickness buffs on the Hermonie, Santa Cecilia and Wasa.

I uploaded the Naval Action Explorer version 2.1 for review:

http://www.northeastliquidators.com/Naval Action/NA Explorer/

I was working the Shops tab to show the contracts as I saw some people asking for that info.

Hey Minnow, your calculations for Carta Caulking are wrong. It's no longer a percentage buff to armor thickness it's a 5 cm fixed buff.

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13 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Hey Minnow, your calculations for Carta Caulking are wrong. It's no longer a percentage buff to armor thickness it's a 5 cm fixed buff.

Good catch, they changed a lot of modules, I will post a new version 2.2 tomorrow.

Edited by SS Minnow
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Site updated.

All values tweaked a little since patch 19, but very little relative changes. It could also mean our math is off ;)

Just a dirty copy/paste from gsheets, but here's the diff from 19 to 23 (first value @15, 12th @180, last is portspeed):

Agamemnon	-0.11	0.01	0.09	0.23	0.30	0.34	0.36	0.36	0.34	0.32	0.30	0.29	4.66	0.36
BasicCutter	0.17	0.27	0.34	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.35	0.33	0.30	0.29	0.27	0.19	4.97	0.38
BasicLynx	0.13	0.31	0.40	0.38	0.38	0.40	0.38	0.36	0.35	0.32	0.27	0.21	5.25	0.40
BellePoule	0.00	0.11	0.17	0.28	0.32	0.36	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.36	0.34	0.31	4.98	0.38
Bellona	-0.12	0.00	0.08	0.22	0.28	0.32	0.35	0.35	0.34	0.32	0.31	0.30	4.50	0.35
Bellona74	-0.12	0.00	0.08	0.22	0.28	0.32	0.34	0.34	0.33	0.32	0.31	0.30	4.49	0.34
Brig	-0.03	0.02	0.24	0.31	0.36	0.39	0.40	0.39	0.40	0.39	0.36	0.33	5.22	0.40
BrigMR	-0.02	0.01	0.19	0.24	0.28	0.31	0.31	0.31	0.31	0.30	0.29	0.26	4.09	0.31
Bucentaure	-0.10	0.01	0.09	0.21	0.27	0.31	0.33	0.33	0.31	0.29	0.27	0.26	4.28	0.33
Cerberus	-0.02	0.09	0.16	0.28	0.32	0.36	0.38	0.39	0.38	0.37	0.35	0.33	5.09	0.39
Christian	0.71	1.35	1.89	1.76	1.76	1.72	1.30	1.03	0.97	0.67	0.38	-0.24	4.31	0.33
Constitution	-0.09	0.03	0.12	0.24	0.29	0.33	0.35	0.35	0.35	0.34	0.32	0.29	4.62	0.35
Constitution2	1.75	2.27	3.71	3.26	2.38	1.83	1.96	2.09	1.59	0.69	-0.34	-1.06	4.62	0.35
Cutter	0.17	0.27	0.34	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.35	0.33	0.30	0.29	0.27	0.19	4.97	0.38
Diana	1.68	2.21	3.60	3.14	2.32	1.79	1.95	2.12	1.68	0.87	-0.06	-0.74	4.48	0.34
Endymion	0.00	0.11	0.17	0.28	0.32	0.35	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.36	0.33	0.31	4.93	0.38
Essex	0.01	0.11	0.18	0.28	0.32	0.35	0.38	0.38	0.36	0.34	0.31	0.29	4.91	0.38
Frigate	-0.05	0.06	0.13	0.25	0.30	0.34	0.37	0.38	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.34	5.02	0.39
GrosVentre	-0.04	0.07	0.13	0.25	0.29	0.33	0.36	0.36	0.36	0.36	0.34	0.32	4.74	0.36
GrosVentrePirate	-0.04	0.07	0.13	0.25	0.30	0.34	0.37	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.36	0.34	4.92	0.38
GunBoat	0.10	0.28	0.36	0.37	0.37	0.37	0.36	0.34	0.32	0.28	0.24	0.20	4.83	0.37
Hamburg	-0.10	0.01	0.09	0.21	0.26	0.30	0.33	0.34	0.34	0.34	0.33	0.31	4.49	0.34
Hercules	-0.76	2.53	3.67	5.47	5.34	5.20	4.99	4.21	3.54	3.16	2.83	2.57	12.84	0.99
Hermione	0.00	0.11	0.18	0.28	0.33	0.36	0.38	0.38	0.38	0.35	0.33	0.30	5.01	0.38
Indefatiable	-0.12	0.00	0.09	0.23	0.29	0.34	0.36	0.37	0.35	0.34	0.32	0.32	4.75	0.36
Indiaman	-0.08	0.03	0.12	0.23	0.28	0.31	0.33	0.33	0.33	0.32	0.30	0.27	4.36	0.33
Ingermanland	-0.13	-0.01	0.07	0.21	0.28	0.32	0.35	0.36	0.35	0.34	0.33	0.33	4.63	0.36
Lhermione	-0.03	0.09	0.16	0.27	0.32	0.36	0.38	0.39	0.39	0.38	0.36	0.34	5.04	0.39
Lynx	0.13	0.31	0.40	0.38	0.38	0.40	0.38	0.36	0.35	0.32	0.27	0.21	5.25	0.40
Mercury	0.01	0.09	0.22	0.30	0.36	0.38	0.39	0.38	0.38	0.36	0.33	0.30	5.02	0.39
NavyBrig	-0.03	0.02	0.23	0.30	0.34	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.38	0.37	0.35	0.32	5.00	0.38
Niagara	0.03	0.11	0.25	0.32	0.38	0.40	0.40	0.39	0.39	0.37	0.34	0.30	5.20	0.40
Ocean	-0.09	-0.02	0.08	0.19	0.24	0.27	0.29	0.30	0.29	0.29	0.27	0.26	3.88	0.30
Pandora	0.49	1.04	1.58	1.57	1.57	1.56	0.80	0.60	0.61	0.44	0.10	-0.57	4.82	0.37
Pavel	-0.11	0.00	0.07	0.19	0.25	0.29	0.31	0.32	0.30	0.29	0.28	0.27	4.09	0.31
Pickle	0.04	0.11	0.32	0.38	0.35	0.36	0.37	0.37	0.36	0.35	0.32	0.29	4.93	0.38
PirateFrigate	-0.05	0.06	0.13	0.25	0.30	0.34	0.37	0.38	0.38	0.38	0.36	0.34	5.00	0.38
PrincedeNeufchatel	0.19	0.26	0.29	0.37	0.39	0.39	0.38	0.37	0.35	0.31	0.27	0.24	5.08	0.39
Privateer	0.11	0.29	0.39	0.37	0.36	0.35	0.34	0.33	0.32	0.30	0.26	0.22	5.16	0.40
Rattlesnake	-0.08	0.04	0.11	0.25	0.31	0.35	0.38	0.40	0.41	0.41	0.40	0.39	5.35	0.41
RattlesnakeHeavy	-0.05	0.06	0.13	0.25	0.30	0.34	0.37	0.38	0.38	0.38	0.37	0.35	5.02	0.39
Renommee	-0.04	0.08	0.14	0.26	0.31	0.35	0.38	0.39	0.39	0.38	0.36	0.34	5.08	0.39
Requin	0.34	1.00	1.22	1.23	1.22	1.19	1.14	1.08	1.01	0.93	0.85	0.76	15.99	1.23
RookieBrig	-0.02	0.01	0.16	0.21	0.25	0.27	0.27	0.27	0.27	0.26	0.25	0.23	3.56	0.27
RookieSnow	-0.05	0.01	0.17	0.26	0.28	0.30	0.30	0.30	0.30	0.28	0.25	0.24	3.95	0.30
Santisima	-0.08	-0.01	0.09	0.20	0.24	0.27	0.29	0.29	0.28	0.27	0.26	0.23	3.80	0.29
Snow	-0.06	0.02	0.23	0.34	0.37	0.39	0.40	0.39	0.39	0.37	0.33	0.32	5.20	0.40
Surprise	0.02	0.13	0.19	0.29	0.33	0.37	0.39	0.38	0.37	0.35	0.33	0.29	5.04	0.39
TradersBrig	-0.02	0.02	0.22	0.28	0.33	0.36	0.36	0.35	0.36	0.35	0.33	0.30	4.72	0.36
TradersCutter	0.15	0.24	0.30	0.34	0.34	0.33	0.32	0.29	0.27	0.26	0.24	0.17	4.45	0.34
TradersLynx	0.12	0.28	0.37	0.35	0.34	0.37	0.35	0.33	0.32	0.29	0.24	0.19	4.81	0.37
TradersSnow	-0.05	0.02	0.19	0.28	0.31	0.33	0.33	0.33	0.32	0.30	0.27	0.27	4.32	0.33
Trincomalee	-0.02	0.09	0.15	0.26	0.31	0.34	0.37	0.37	0.36	0.36	0.34	0.31	4.86	0.37
Victory	1.00	-0.02	1.04	0.39	0.34	0.41	0.30	0.31	0.30	0.30	0.28	0.26	3.99	0.31
Wasa	-0.09	-0.01	0.11	0.24	0.29	0.32	0.35	0.35	0.34	0.33	0.31	0.29	4.53	0.35
Yacht	0.10	0.25	0.36	0.35	0.32	0.32	0.32	0.33	0.32	0.29	0.24	0.18	4.89	0.38
YachtSilver	0.10	0.25	0.36	0.35	0.32	0.32	0.32	0.33	0.32	0.29	0.24	0.18	4.89	0.38

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Requin 360 with Surprise as reference:

 

(embed not working right now?)

Haven't started with looking at manual sails though that might help with turnrate at the expense of speed.

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