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Ship Speeds - Testing and Discussion

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Yankee jack    47

Just a thought on wood type.

 

Did I read somewhere that Captains didn't like some species of wood because they caused splinter wounds more likely to become "septic"?

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jodgi    2,340

Related: Built in speed mods. Golden speed.

 

Took this one out to note down max speed:

 

xsoNXMl.jpg

 

P9v0MCY.jpg

 

It is reported at 17 knots in the GUI, so that gives 17/16 -> +6.25%

 

In a battle instance: 15.8/14.9 -> +6%

 

In the underlying math the number is probably that of the slap on mod; 7.5%. The diff. is prolly just due to math we don't see.

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jodgi    2,340

Today's hotfix addressed the wood issue.

 

This is how the ship above now is represented by the gui:

 

PEAf4jD.jpg

 

It's listed speed is now 18.6 knots. Haven't checked in a battle instance.

 

Will do testing (much) later if you guys don't.

 

I gotta go do other stuff now . :(

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Gregorey    14

I have bought some Yacht today with different wood types.

 

Yacht with

live oak has a theoreticel speed of 14.40 (-10% of oak)

oak has a theoretical speed of 16.00

edit: teak has a theoretical speed of 16.00

fir has a theoretical speed of 17.60 (+10% of oak)

 

Yacht with teak wood i have not found yet.

Edited by Gregorey

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Prater    5,325

Frigate

Teak: 14.9

Live Oak 13.4

Yikes. Frigate with Live Oak is 13.4 knots? That is 1.5kn difference

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jodgi    2,340

...Yikes. Frigate with Live Oak is 13.4 knots? That is 1.5kn difference...

 

There is a reason I have been slaving fir frame parts for the Dutch crafters. It'll be hard to determine if live oak is worth it, it's all but impossible to properly test "armor" or "HP".

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Prater    5,325

Live oak would be best suited for pve or maybe large SOL battles, and ideal for port battles

 

There is one ship where so far I think it is useful.

 

The problem with live oak is that it shouldnt necessarily have a 10% speed debuff.  The USS United States was reportedly very fast.  Where Live Oak should be different is in cost.  Maybe decrease the speed debuff to 5% and increase the price in gold by 3-4x and labor hours by 3-4x.

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maturin    5,454

 

The USS United States was reportedly very fast.

United States was called 'the old wagon.' President was the fast one.

 

I never heard any source speculate that the weight of live oak slowed down the American frigates. It's possible that they would have been faster if made from oak, but that their great length made up for it, reaching parity with fast 38-gun ships of the day. I doubt it, though, since the large French 30-pounder frigates of the post-Napoleonic era didn't go around breaking many records.

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jodgi    2,340

It's listed speed is now 18.6 knots. Haven't checked in a battle instance.

For completeness' sake:

manA6fp.jpg

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Jim    90

It is near to imposible to test it without any doubt, but i experiencing higher losses in crews when using teak ships - in last trafalgar my teak 74 lost almost half crew in one salvo and i wasnt in boarding stance. Teak is unhealthy especialy in form of flying splinters but i belive that wasnt immediate difference between type of splinters.

 

Can anybody confirm/overthrow my observation?

Edited by Jim

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Prater    5,325

Someone help me out....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak  

 

Live Oak doesn't sound like some magical chobham armor from the age of sail based off this. Sounds like it was just one of many  types of wood that were useful in specific parts of ship manufacturing.

 

You are basing your statement off of a couple of sentences without doing any actual reading or research on it?  Live Oak was used in American shipbuilding for framing and knees.  Question for you.  How did Americans frame their ships and use knees and how was that different from Europeans?  Therein lies the answer to your "help me out."  You might want to read some actual sources.

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Blackjack Morgan    1,026

Prater, your charm as always is so amazing. Why do you always have to take such a condescending horses ass tone? You essentially regurgitated what I said but somehow take a dig at me for posting a link? How a ship was designed and built is more of an engineering issue....I was simply pointing out that "live oak" was apparently only used in specific parts of ship construction just like many other various types of wood. It certainly doesn't sound like it was ever used in planking for example.  

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Prater    5,325

Prater, your charm as always is so amazing. Why do you always have to take such a condescending horses ass tone? You essentially regurgitated what I said but somehow take a dig at me for posting a link? How a ship was designed and built is more of an engineering issue....I was simply pointing out that "live oak" was apparently only used in specific parts of ship construction just like many other various types of wood. It certainly doesn't sound like it was ever used in planking for example.  

 

Blackjack:

 

 

Live Oak doesn't sound like some magical chobham armor from the age of sail based off this.

 

Where did that come from?  Your charm is as good as mine.  Perhaps your condescending tone received a condescending tone.

 

And planking?  Have you done shipbuilding?  It isn't used as planking.  Live Oak cannot be used as planking in game or real life.  How did Americans frame their frigates?  0'' framing.  That is a solid wall of live oak.  Compared to European framing that in the middle of the ship could fit 2 18lb balls between the frames.

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Blackjack Morgan    1,026

Yes Prater I have done ship building. Why do you get so upset dude I mean seriously? My point is that "live oak" appears to be only used to build a few specific parts in ships. I'm not questioning if the material itself was good for those specific parts but rather how much of a difference structurally did they make? Was it quantitative or qualitative? I admit, I am no expert in shipbuilding and I have never worked as a woodworker in a Age of Sail shipyard nor did I sleep in a Holliday Inn Express last night. However, it seems that a lot of the examples of US ships being tougher might have more to do with structural design more so than the use of live oak?

 

Lastly, my chobham armor comment was quite tongue in cheek and not directed toward ANYONE....it was merely interjecting a bit of humor as I didn't think humor was off limits in our community. Conversely, you are taking a direct and personal antagonistic approach which I don't really appreciate to be honest. Everyone single person here is a part of this community and we should all have the right to participate in these discussions without being attacked. 

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Prater    5,325

Usually when people use humor, especially sarcastic humor on the internet, they give something to set it apart and make it noticeable.  In this community, as you very well know, the term magic is often used to diminish someone's argument, suggestion, request, etc.  Forgive me for not being able to determine if you were being humorous or attacking an idea.

 

As to the strength of live oak, that discussion happened long ago between the experts on here.

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Blackjack Morgan    1,026

Ok, look how about we just hit the reset button? My question to those with more ship building knowledge than myself would be this:

 

How much of a difference in actual performance, quantitative or qualitative, did the use of various woods make compared to actual ship design and quality of craftsmanship?

 

 

I'm just concerned that we are giving out bonuses to speed or health etc. and that might be more "magical" than the role actual ship design and craftsmanship did? Hope I'm making sense with what I'm trying to say. If we just want to have various woods to help "customize" the performance of our ship that's ok with me as well I guess. I perhaps would put forth the possibility of certain shipyards offering up these unique traits more so than the woods being used. I think the introduction of that dynamic would be pretty simple to do and could really add to the strategic RvR component of the game?

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maturin    5,454

No amount of design or quality of craftsmanship will make a fir-built ship as durable as oak in the long-term. Same with unseasoned timber of any type.

 

Wood type had plenty of rather subtle, not always predictable effects, since you're changing the weight of the vessel overall, as well as the way it will flex and age. Fir Leda-class frigates were a lot stiffer than oak Ledas for example.

 

 

 

I'm just concerned that we are giving out bonuses to speed or health etc. and that might be more "magical" than the role actual ship design and craftsmanship did?

I'm not personally a fan of hefty speed bonuses and penalties, but I will say this:

Everything in a game is magical at the end of the day. 99% of damage models boil down to hitpoints, and 99% of movement models rely on some basic stats. These numbers have to come from somewhere. In a game you can hardly complain about high HP for a ship built of wood that is dramatically denser and heavier than anything else afloat, especially one with a reputation for deflecting cannon balls.

 

There is a huge amount of anecdotal evidence for live oak resisting gunfire, backed up by scientific appraisals of the material's strength. I'm certain that certain guns at certain powder charges and ranges would find it more difficult to penetrate. Were the American frigates' live oak scantlings ever decisive in battle? I really doubt it. They got hulled by 18-pounders plenty.

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Blackjack Morgan    1,026

I think I'm pretty much in the same corner as you Maturin regarding this. Not a huge fan of the speed increases from the wood used in the ship construction. I wholeheartedly agree that various woods and construction practices could have subtle effects on individual ship performances. Furthermore, It would seem plausible to me that the quality of the craftsmanship from a shipyard could have an impact as well since we are talking about all hand work back then. Like I said earlier if we are just basically using the various wood types to serve as just another way to "customize" our ships a bit then thats fine as well.

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Yankee jack    47

In this game speed is life.  It seems to override everything?  

In the real world, durability, resistance to rot, work-ability and availability were all factors that had a great deal to do with which wood was chosen.  

Dr Maturin has it right:  everything in the game is "magical".

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Prater    5,325

Ok, look how about we just hit the reset button? My question to those with more ship building knowledge than myself would be this:

 

How much of a difference in actual performance, quantitative or qualitative, did the use of various woods make compared to actual ship design and quality of craftsmanship?

 

 

I'm just concerned that we are giving out bonuses to speed or health etc. and that might be more "magical" than the role actual ship design and craftsmanship did? Hope I'm making sense with what I'm trying to say. If we just want to have various woods to help "customize" the performance of our ship that's ok with me as well I guess. I perhaps would put forth the possibility of certain shipyards offering up these unique traits more so than the woods being used. I think the introduction of that dynamic would be pretty simple to do and could really add to the strategic RvR component of the game?

 

And I would agree with all of this.  It isn't just live oak, it is all of the woods.

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Alex Connor    866

And I would agree with all of this.  It isn't just live oak, it is all of the woods.

Live oak is the biggest difference though. I mean, Constitution's hull frame weighs more than the hull frames of Leander and Newcastle put together...

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