pvp/pve flag and open world interaction

[hoarmurath]

There was some discussions earlier about pvp flag, and i thought about recycling an idea i had for potbs during beta...

 

What about making pvp and pve flagged players invisible to each others? They would sail the same sea, go to the same ports, and see the same npcs. The interactions would still be possible under some circumstances.

 

All players would see started battles. They could always join their nation side if their nation is involved in the fight. If it's a battle between two other nations, there's two possibilities :

 

• Battle was started as player vs npc, you can join on player side only
• Battle was started as player vs player, usual rules of engagement apply

 

You could also get dragged into a battle if it start near you, even though you couldn't see the player starting it. Then you would find yourself on your nation side, as usual. In case of someone attacking a smuggler from your nation, i still wonder if you should side with the smuggler, the attacker, or have the choice...

 

It would limit interactions between pvp and pve players, without removing completely the risk for non pvp flagged players...

 

It's just an idea...

[Siegfried]

This will lead to poltergheist situations when a invisible player starts a battle near of you and you are dragged in. Or you see a NPC turns to attack an invisible player and not to you. Or a NPC that you want attack dissappear in front of your eyes.

 

But is a good idea for a limited area of game... for example around Bermuda...

[marecek05]

Although I am a PVPer through and through, I can see this solution as much less harmful then split servers for PVPers and PVEers. I don't like the idea of invisible pulling. It would be too distracting.

 

Also flagging from PVE to PVP enabled should be instant, while flagging from PVP to PVE should function as teleport. You have to be stationary for some time, to avoid using it to escape combat situations.

 

But MUCH better solution than split servers...

[Tief N Tote]

i'm terrible at pvp but i don't want to see the game split into multiple servers i prefer  largest player base possible. that being said i plan to buy a ship when they are available that has unlimited dura. yes they will be in game according to the devs but will be weaker then player made ships. so if i get ganked o-well. if i want to occasionally pvp i know i need a premium ship so i will have both. problem solved. 

[Tinman]

I already thought of at leassst 15 ways to exploit that mechanic...INVISIBLE? Are you kidding me...traders who can be invisible moving goods in and out of ports with no consequence of profit loss. I will just flagg myself PVE...now i can move my 1ST rate into position for the battles with no consequences. Sounds like a good idea to me, I`m in. The possibilities are endless. You cannot interact in the PvP world if you do not take the same risks as everyone else.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Tinman

[Young]

unless you split the servers you need to get used to having to play against real people and maybe removing player names before battle might help the timid captains 

[Ronald Speirs]

I floated this idea ages ago, i thought flagging would be a good idea over the split servers that way it would keep both worlds happy and when PvE get some confidence and feel they might like to try PvP then they can flag up and have a try, flag changing should take 5 or 10 minutes or something so that PvE couldnt just flag up PvP and run in and exploit, the PvE players should get less profit for their goods then a player/ Merchant thats flagged himself and taken the risk should get more profit for the dangers faced thus making people take a risk, atm i find that the community is split and arnt finding a good enough solution and people just getting upset and frustrated, im all for working out a solution to both groups together without any drama, theres a way of working it out we just need to stick together on it and if there are exploits then we find a solution and shut them down and so forth.

[admin]

Such players wont pull anyone anywhere. 

NCO flags were discussed some time before as an alternative to a PVE shard - they are possible and without exploits. 

NCO = non commissioned officer with a timed flag (cannot take it off quickly and put back) who cannot attack National players and cannot be attacked by National players (but still has pirates who can attack him). 

[Bart Smith]

Just keep open world whole pvp area or just around starting ports safe zone a bit. 

[hoarmurath]

We can disagree without being disrespectful to each other. His points were quite valid, let's please keep it constructive and on topic.

 

No, its points aren't valid...

 

As an eco player in potbs, let me explain you exactly what happen when i want to do eco, and my main production port is in red zone : I don't eco, i do something else. I would just shut off the port until it's accessible again. If i had something else to do, pvp, missions, then i would do it. Otherwise, i would just close the game, and play something else. Like everybody else, only noobs would try to move goods in a red zone.

 

Currently, the discussions are about having a full pve shard, so nobody ever get attacked, or a flag system (the NCO flags), so you can only attack other pvp flagged players. With maybe an exception for pirates, but i wouldn't bet on it.

 

So, what exactly he is whining about... Not being able to jump on unarmed trader ships? Well, that's exactly why there are discussions about no pvp server/flag.

 

Or, OMG, i can't attack players moving their big ships before some battle? And how exactly do you intend to stop people from moving such ships (we don't even know if we will need to move our ships to participate in port battles, as there's still the possibility that it works as in potbs). You're going to blockade port? Alone? Certainly not. With enough ships to ensure that no single players will pass. Welcome to gankland, once more...

 

And anyway, if there's a pvp flag, what already prevent people from doing it?

 

Tinman is just having a knee jerk reaction about the open world not being full pvp everywhere anymore in the future. The fun part is that, what i just suggested would actually limit the invulnerability from pvp flag. But he haven't thought at all about it, he just saw it was about open world not being full pvp anymore, and started crying.

 

Bart is having the exact same reaction "OMG, the game isn't going to be full pvp anymore?"... Well, according to the last discussions, no, it's not going to stay that way.

Edited September 7, 2015 by hoarmurath

[Lytse Pier]

Is PVE vs. PVP the right discussion and shouldn't it be a Risk vs. Reward discussion instead?

 

As a notorious PVE-oriented player, if the reward is great enough I might risk my ship and crew without hesitation. The reward, but more so, the loss, should feel real.

[Bart Smith]

My statement coming from few years experience form PotBS where me and my friend were "eco kings" and my traders get sunk only once when i was afk sailing. Simple dont want same here. I prefer : No pain no gain...or no risk no profit.

[Prater]

This is why neutral is eventually going to be removed. Econ players cannot and should not be allowed to hide from pvp but should have massive payouts.  Econ should have payouts (gold per hour) way more than combat, but the risk has to be high.  This will force econ players to use their heads and skills to avoid getting attacked.  And perhaps being allowed to buy AI fleets if you are in a trader vessel. 

 

And areas around free ports where there is a ton of trading going on should have fleets in harbor that reinforce players who are attacked within say 40,000 game units of them.  Hopefully these ai ships would leave port and have to sail to the battle first instead of just popping in battle.

 

This will make econ interesting.

[Prater]

Such players wont pull anyone anywhere. 

NCO flags were discussed some time before as an alternative to a PVE shard - they are possible and without exploits. 

NCO = non commissioned officer with a timed flag (cannot take it off quickly and put back) who cannot attack National players and cannot be attacked by National players (but still has pirates who can attack him). 

 

 

Such a person should not be able to carry anything in the hold of their vessel, otherwise it WILL be exploited.

[hoarmurath]

This is why neutral is eventually going to be removed. Econ players cannot and should not be allowed to hide from pvp but should have massive payouts.  Econ should have payouts (gold per hour) way more than combat, but the risk has to be high.  This will force econ players to use their heads and skills to avoid getting attacked.  And perhaps being allowed to buy AI fleets if you are in a trader vessel. 

 

If the risk is too high, they won't play... At all... And this is perfect use of their heads, as there's no point for them to play just to serve as punching ball for pvpers.

 

And by your definition, i'm still looking exactly for the risk involved into attacking traders with a fully pvp fitted ship. It's nice of you to want to provide risk to traders, but what exactly are you risking?

 

Anyway, i see this topic is turning as pve vs pvp once more... Just by the same as usual. There's already a topic in open world section, and the whole "the open world must be full pvp" discussion has nothing to do with my suggestion. This suggestion is for a playing environment already set for using pvp flags. If we end up with a pvp and a pve servers, this suggestion is irrelevant. As your answer.

Edited September 7, 2015 by hoarmurath

[Prater]

hoarmurath, please get off your high horse.  My answer is not irrelevant.  Why do you get to decide so?  You don't.  Even if your suggestion turns out to be irrelevant because devs implement a pvp and pve server, my post still remains relevant so that the devs keep it in mind for future features, especially with removing the neutral faction.

 

 

I said the payout has to be massive.  THAT is why it is worthwhile, just like it was in real life.  I even gave a way to mitigate risk, AI Fleets (to buy and those defending Trade Hubs).  And here is another:  insurance.  This doesn't apply just to your suggestion, but as aa econ comment in general.  Irrelevant?  No.  Just like the other people's points were valid.

[hoarmurath]

hoarmurath, please get off your high horse.  My answer is not irrelevant.  Why do you get to decide so?  You don't.  Even if your suggestion turns out to be irrelevant because devs implement a pvp and pve server, my post still remains relevant so that the devs keep it in mind for future features, especially with removing the neutral faction.

 

 

I said the payout has to be massive.  THAT is why it is worthwhile, just like it was in real life.  I even gave a way to mitigate risk, AI Fleets.  And here is another:  insurance.  This doesn't apply just to your suggestion, but as a econ comment in general.  Irrelevant?  No.

 

You are missing an important point : losing their time because they can't move from port to port without being attacked isn't fun. Not being able to do eco because they keep getting sunk while trying isn't fun, even if they don't lose money thx to insurance. If the game isn't fun, i don't see how you expect them to keep playing it.

 

In fact, my suggestion is made so the risk is still present for traders, without being systematic, thus keeping it at an acceptable level. But you, like others, haven't read it thorougly. You just look at the title and say "OMG, pvp flag, i can't attack those nasty traders anymore?" and you start crying. This is what pvp flag does, and currently, this is what the devs have in mind. You read what admin have written here, that's a possibility. A good one even, i'm not surprised, that's what i had heard from other discussions.

 

What i'm suggesting is a way to alter their idea of NCO flag and make it so there's still a risk involved, but a small one. And also some risk, not only for them, but for you (you attack a lonely player, when suddenly he received reinforcements you hadn't noticed, as they were flagged so you couldn't see them). It bring some part of uncertainty and risk for everybody, pve and pvp players alike. It make you have to think twice before attacking anybody anywhere, just in case there's a nasty surprise waiting around the corner. It make you think twice about attacking a ship in an area where there's a big chance of other ships being close enough to intervene, and for pve players, it make them think twice about the path they chose, so they have a chance of receiving reinforcements in case of troubles, or they take the shortest path and risk fighting alone if they end up in an unexpected fight.

 

I suggest you start thinking, really thinking, about what admin said about NCO, and about my suggestion. Then, maybe, you will realize that's not a suggestion to protect pve players, but that's actually a suggestion to keep a higher level of risk for them, as well as for pvp players.

Edited September 7, 2015 by hoarmurath

[Prater]

hoarmurath,

You are really starting to tick me off, and not just me, but a bunch of people. 

 

You tell us to read your posts, but then you fail to read ours, and you then dismiss our points, and tell us to start thinking as if we aren't.  And I have read your post, several times over.

 

Cut it out.

 

What is it that I do NOT LIKE about your opening post that YOU are ignoring?  This right here:

 

 

What about making pvp and pve flagged players invisible to each others?

 

 

Is dumb.  Just plain dumb.

 

And the other part:

 

 

You could also get dragged into a battle if it start near you, even though you couldn't see the player starting it.

 

Is extremely dumb.  I should always see when I could possibly get dragged into a battle or be attacked so that I can try to avoid it. 

 

 

And the rest doesn't make any sense at all from an economic standpoint.  Why can't you leave port?  There are 340+ ports.  They aren't all being camped.  And if you are in one that is being camped, then figure out a way to get away.  And if it is a major trade hub, then my suggestion means that a lot of AI will be joining you if you get attacked.  Or pay for player escorts, or AI escorts.  And this point is really a different topic.  It belongs in a port camping topic.

 

About losing time?  As a pvp player, have I not lost time if I lose a very expensive fully gold modded ship, like a Santisima?  Or say the port my ships are in and my econ is in are captured by another nation and I cant enter there anymore?

 

Again, all I or anyone else has to do to make a ton of money in an almost completely risk free way is have an alt that is PVE only (or neutral) and we will only get dragged into a battle by AI (or pirates).    That is dumb, and will ruin the economy.  Economy is based on risk, supply and demand.  You have to have risk. 

 

Your suggestion is all basically like a neutral player, so we don't need another type of player character that can mostly avoid pvp.  Just keep neutrals if this is the case.

 

Why do you and others just want to play an "I win" game?  I would rather have a pve shard and a pvp shard than your suggestion.

[hoarmurath]

 I would rather have a pve shard and a pvp shard than your suggestion.

 

Then, pve and pvp players will be totally invisible to each other... And have zero influence on the economy of the others as well. And they won't even meet under any circumstance.

 

Explain me how this is best?

[Prater]

 And have zero influence on the economy of the others as well. And they won't even meet under any circumstance.

 

This is what is best.  PVPers/realm vs realm exploiting the economy by using PVE alts will not be allowed.

[DazednConfused]

There seems to be this assumption that PVE players provide all the trading in these comments.

 

Hell in the new patch coming up nearly all players are going to be chugging around getting resources to craft the best ship - and be at risk of attack by people who aren't crafting at that time.

 

im not sure i like the idea of someone flagging themselves to freely gather resources without risk and then being able to unflag themselves when they have crafted an uuber ship 

[Prater]

Also, I was a trader/econ player in Potbs, and I quit because of the lack of risk.  I even went in red zones and only lost a few ships, but it was dumb that I wasn't able to be attacked outside red zones.  Loss of time?  It is a game, where you don't always win and make money.

 

In Eve I was also a industrialist, the only reason why I quit that was because you had to do too much spreadsheet work.  It was fun for a few months but became more work than work with all the required spreadsheets. 

 

If you lose a ship and cargo, you lose a ship and cargo.  Pixels.  The fun is in the risk.

[hoarmurath]

There seems to be this assumption that PVE players provide all the trading in these comments.

 

Hell in the new patch coming up nearly all players are going to be chugging around getting resources to craft the best ship - and be at risk of attack by people who aren't crafting at that time.

 

im not sure i like the idea of someone flagging themselves to freely gather resources without risk and then being able to unflag themselves when they have crafted an uuber ship 

 

Then good luck, because it's exactly what devs have currently in mind, and it has nothing to do with my suggestion...

[DazednConfused]

doesn't the problem become self fulfilling then?

 

person wants easy way of getting good ships before entering pvp

 

person has good ship but no pvp skill so gets rekd

 

person does not want to pvp again.

 

 

wouldn't it be better to play the game properly? it would certainly be more fun than the above.

[Prater]

Then good luck, because it's exactly what devs have currently in mind, and it has nothing to do with my suggestion...

 

 

Yes, it does, because with your suggestion, all a person has to do is make a PVE ALT, go around, collect the best resources, make a ton of money practically risk free, get into crafting, make a ton of more money by selling ships practically risk free, then start making awesome pvp ships, practically risk free.

 

It throws the whole economy, pvp, and nation vs nation balance off.