Displaying enemy damage states

[BrutishVulgarian]

This topic is dedicated to ideas for displaying enemy damage states without resorting to health bars.

 

I'll start with, "blood running from the scuppers" which I think would be an excellent way of showing enemy crew casualties.   It would be a good clue that a ship is ready to be boarded.

[Oneironz]

This is something that should be discussed!

 

One thing that I don't want, is damage being displayed like in Potbs. There is simply too much information that it takes away the fun and thrill of trying to figure out, whether I should stop pounding the enemy and board or not. 

A very cool way to display damage, would be on the ship itself, if accurate cannonball holes could be displayed and the relevant rigging to be cut off, dynamically, there would be no need of an UI to display ship damage.

 

If dynamic damage is something very advanced or resource heavy, use different textures to display damage, on the ship. And do something like DayZ, show little status messages like, "heavy flooding!" or "we're takin' water!" coupled with vocal warnings like in Silent Hunter 5.

 

Start watching at 10 or 30 seconds, you'll notice a crew member shouting information.

 

 

I would like to see a dynamic damage system, and not just an assortment of numbers and colours in an UI.

[Marion van Ghent]

That[*] sounds needlessly gory and physically implausible, given how the scuppers are located on the upper deck of ships and the bulk of crew (thus casualties) is below them operating the guns in combat (at least on anything larger than small frigate).

 

EDIT: [*] cross-posted with Oneironz; "that" refers to BrutishVulgarian's bloody scuppers idea.

 

All we should need, in an ideal game, are reasonable representations of damage. Visuals with the rigging and hull are most obvious: lost spars or masts, shredded sails, thoroughly pockmarked planking, a handful of crew on deck, all these give an indication that a ship's not too well off.

 

But it needn't be visual alone: a damaged ship behaves differently. She may have trouble keeping her head off the wind if, say, her bowsprit's gone. If she's taking on water she will slow down and be more apt to rolling. The crew, if suffering heavy casualties, will not be manning the sails or guns as sharply, and fewer are apt to be seen on deck. They will also be quieter as there are fewer of them, but that would only be apparent at close range.

 

Again, though... this is an ideal scenario. Games, no matter how wonderful they are, are rarely ideal   In particular, we may not -- at least in early versions of the game -- have visible crew. And even with visible crew, we probably won't have anywhere near the fidelity of Real Life Sensorium™ -- not all crew may be rendered on any given ship for graphic performance reasons, and besides, they're pixels on a screen.

 

So what I'd prefer to see is to have one's own officers tell you, when asked about a given target (say, right-click on it), their observations. "I see about a dozen men on deck! Her rigging's thoroughly shot through! She's looks to be sailing fine." That can supplement what we see and hear, and make up for the incomplete picture we have due to this being a computer game -- without resorting to health bars.

 

All the above said: it would be nice if some of the feedback could be "faked." Say you're a privateer or a pirate sailing a converted merchantman: such a ship won't be as obviously dangerous as a frigate or purpose-built privateer. 'Twouldn't it be fun to deliberately send half your crew belowdecks, be sloppy on the helm and play lame duck to lure a rival into thinking you're either easy prey or a harmless trader -- only to present them a nasty boarding surprise when they heave to?

[Oneironz]

Thanks for explaining the visual and voice idea more thoroughly! What you wrote is exactly what I was thinking!

 

And the fact that it's not 100% numbers, some tricks can be applied, like changing colours, faking merchants, etc, it allows for more interesting game play and surprises  

[BrutishVulgarian]

Jets of water being pumped out could indicate she's leaking badly.   Maybe a good time to just let her sink slowly and move on to the next target.

[Thomas Blackwell]

I would definitely like to see a more realistic damage indicator. The pumping of water is a good one, as well as badly damaged sails and hull, just to give the game a more authentic feel.

[Brigand]

The thing with wooden ships sinking is that it is a quite complex affair. The more water a ship takes in, the slower she will sink (due to 'physics', details are not important right now).

 

Apart from this, a good part of the cargo in a typical vessel (more so in trading vessels than in combat vessels, but still true for both) will float. So, when the ships starts taking in water, parts of her cargo will start floating in the hold. This floating mass gets trapped underneath the decks and both adds buoyancy (good) and shifts the centre of balance (bad).

 

The combination of less water flowing in and the increased buoyancy due to floating cargo makes sure that there is a very reasonable chance that at some point, the amount of water pumped out by the pump and the amount of water flowing in reaches an equilibrium: you won't sink (further) as long as you keep working the pumps. In real history, there are numerous stories about ships that made it to port because of this equilibrium.

One of the problems of cargo going afloat in the hold was that it had a good chance of damaging or clogging the pumps (and some pumps-types where easier damaged than others), which would quickly tip the balance in favour for the water rushing in.

 

So, a ship will only sink when enough water is flowing in to make sure than the pumps will never be able to counter the flow, not even on the later stages when flow is reduced. As a result, Jets of water being pumped do indicate she's leaking badly. But it in no way guarantees she will sink (any rainstorm on the horizon?).

 

 

Cheers,

Brigand

[Thomas Blackwell]

The thing with wooden ships sinking is that it is a quite complex affair. The more water a ship takes in, the slower she will sink (due to 'physics', details are not important right now).

Apart from this, a good part of the cargo in a typical vessel (more so in trading vessels than in combat vessels, but still true for both) will float. So, when the ships starts taking in water, parts of her cargo will start floating in the hold. This floating mass gets trapped underneath the decks and both adds buoyancy (good) and shifts the centre of balance (bad).

The combination of less water flowing in and the increased buoyancy due to floating cargo makes sure that there is a very reasonable chance that at some point, the amount of water pumped out by the pump and the amount of water flowing in reaches an equilibrium: you won't sink (further) as long as you keep working the pumps. In real history, there are numerous stories about ships that made it to port because of this equilibrium.

One of the problems of cargo going afloat in the hold was that it had a good chance of damaging or clogging the pumps (and some pumps-types where easier damaged than others), which would quickly tip the balance in favour for the water rushing in.

So, a ship will only sink when enough water is flowing in to make sure than the pumps will never be able to counter the flow, not even on the later stages when flow is reduced. As a result, Jets of water being pumped do indicate she's leaking badly. But it in no way guarantees she will sink (any rainstorm on the horizon?).

Cheers,

Brigand

I agree. Personally, I think ships should be very difficult to sink. In the real world, there are a great many factors that make sinking a wooden vessel rather than disabling her a waste of time and ammunition. Having effects like water being pumped, sitting lower in the water, a significant loss in speed and maneuverability and even having the ship in question roll to one side would not only indicate to the attacker that their target is heavily damaged, but to the captain of the ship itself. Instead of winning a fight through sheer damage output and trying to destroy a ships 'armour' the battle should be one of disabling and demoralization. If the crew of a heavily damaged ship believe that there is no hope, they will not fight.

Let's say I'm in a frigate, and I am fighting a line ship who has somehow managed to get the jump on me. She has battered my hull, decimated my rigging, and half of my crew have perished. I am taking on a lot of water, while the majority of the remaining crew are working the pumps. My ship is sitting low in the water and doesn't respond to the helm. A number of my guns have been dismounted or destroyed, while those still in action are reloading very slowly due to the small gun crews. At this point, there is very little I can do to fight back. All my enemy need do is sit on my stern and rake me with grape, demoralizing my crew. When my crew has lost their morale, my ship strikes it's colours automatically. It's much the same as sinking after taking too much damage, only instead of a damaged ship it's a demoralized crew, and instead of sinking I'm surrendering.

Of course a ship should be able to be sunk, but sinking a vessel should be either so difficult or so reliant on skilled (lucky) shooting along the waterline that it is not in either captains interest to try and sink the other. This kind of system I think will make captains more heavily reliant on things like maneuvering, accuracy, tactics and teamwork, rather than simply trying to overwhelm an enemies 'armour'

I may have gotten a little off topic here, so I will bring it back in again. I think damage stats as we normally know them in videogames should be tossed out of the cabin window when it comes to Naval Action. A number of innovative ways to indicate the damage done to a vessel without having to resort to health bars and the like have been mentioned in this very thread. Ideas I think the Developers should seriously consider discussing if they aren't already doing so.

Theo

[tater]

Damage would be very hard to read from one ship to another. Even crew would be hard to see, particularly given the smoke that will likely not be as persistent in game. Blood in the scuppers is not a terrible idea, and in fact a small amount of blood turns a great deal of water red though, so a tint to it would indicate someone was wounded, past that? <shrug>

 

If the damage is not a generic texture, but holes where balls enter… count the holes. Really, just get a sense of "a lot" or "few." The less information the better, frankly.

[Baggywrinkle]

"Damage would be very hard to read..."

I'd like to respectfully entirely disagree Hard to see maybe, buy not hard to read. From big things like broken spars (bowsprits, topmasts, mizzen booms) lumps of boat missing above the waterline and blown sails to less obvious - a cap shroud rolled out, steering gear fouled, broken gaff jaws, even seasick crew - I've been at sea with other vessels and have been able to a) spot something was up and see or workout what it was from up to ten miles away and sometimes in very reduced visibility. Just by way of supporting the visual damage modelling advocates.

Anyway, to get towards the question at hand: please incentivise me to surrender. Please let there be a risk of my crew surrendering on my behalf if I'm being a bloody idiot. Don't force me to sink every time. It's not interesting, nor fun, nor useful and a lot of game mechanic problems go away when sinking every time goes away. Also, can we please remember that, hopefully, much damage can be caused by the elements. It's not all blood, splinters and see-through topsails.

To actually deal with the question at hand:

* audio-visual damage model. No bars. Reports from officers an acceptable workaround for damage hard to represent.

* same damage model for me and NPC.

* shot should be tracked, and damage what they hit. The previous generation of combat flight sims managed it, so should Naval Action.

* This means accurate (and so informative) holes in hull and rig. The chance of knocking out a block or parting a line cause loss of sail control if not loss of the sail itself. If you can't see the damage itself, you should at least notice the impact it has.^

* Visible crew would be nice but not necessary, because...

* Most information on a vessel comes from her apparent intentions and how she executes them. Slow to alter course, missing stays, sporadic return fire, sat low in the water with an exaggerated roll at odds with the swell, unusual sail trim or suit...all things you might see on an otherwise apparently pristine vessel that would tell you things were seriously amiss. And happily, I hope, none too complicated to model.

* Sounds are very very very important. When a sail flogs, you know about it. With surprisingly little time, the tone of the rig, and indeed the creaks of the vessel herself, can provide half of all the information you need about it. And having a breathless Second shouting in your ear that the gammoning has been shot away and you're about to loose jibboom and your foretops would, I imagine, probably get your attention. Noise of battle or no!

Baggy

^ For example, it was uncommon for a spanker to be set on every point of sail in every set of conditions, so you might not realise that you've shot the enemy's halyards away. But you should realise that when she's unable to sail so well on the wind, or even keep her head up, and her spanker isn't set whilst yours is, what has happened. Conversely you might shoot away the spanker tricing/brailing lines, and the sail would flop out and slat about causing no end of mischief. A flappy sail is an unhappy sail

[tater]

I agree that experts could read a lot about the enemy by actions, and the way their movement "felt" to see. I mean hard to read in the game sense. Holes in the hull show. Sails holes, masts down, etc. It will be tough with just visual cues, but having too much information (the % damage number on some sort of dumb health bar) is just as bad. I agree completely with damage reports from your officers and crew.

 

Reports from your crew on the state of the enemy as long as it is something they could know is fine. Best way would be to have such information ranked based on it being easily visible, or something experienced eyes see, then use the skill level of the crew (including your captain) to decide if you get informed. 

 

I don't want a health bar even for my own ship.

 

"2 feet in the bilge, sir! We're pumping, but one of the chain pumps was destroyed."

 

"The carpenter reports he's patching 2 holes between wind and water, sir."

 

That's what I want to see.

[Baggywrinkle]

That depth of damage reporting would be wonderful! Immersive, informative,in many ways a winner.

And I'm with you that some issues are hard to both see and read, but some are practically obvious - not altering course etc. And if damage doesn't cause any practical problems then it's not really damage! Basically I'm after a damage model that shows me damage and models it (!) in a bid to avoid the visuals showing half the hull missing, but the model still schooning round at 25kts blowing the wossname out of every foe. Just wanted to give a little real world backup to the notion of damage, and the effects of damage in particular, being noticeable and so not necessarily requiring a bar being depleted, or even on-screen text, or any of the other 'normal' gamey UI which it seems we all hope NA will rise above in time.

On a related note, I'd like the option to assign a hand to keep an eye on any given vessel and report notable course changes, sail changes, damage incurred, apparent targets etc. It should help keep a realistic level of situational awareness in messy fights.

[Brigand]

On a related note, I'd like the option to assign a hand to keep an eye on any given vessel and report notable course changes, sail changes, damage incurred, apparent targets etc. It should help keep a realistic level of situational awareness in messy fights.

 

This could prove to be a good solution for the awareness issues mentioned by some.

 

~Brigand

[tater]

Any damage system where you know if you take X hit you'll sink is gamey.

[Johny Reb]

I don't mind the health bar for my own ship but I'd love to try out the suggestion of crew reports. I've thought alot lately about our ability to see enemy health bars because it informs our decisions and tactics and therefore makes the fight a little less realistic. By removing all these things you create a very steep learning curve that may scare off noobs so the damage model seen on other ships must be very well designed so that we can tell if our aiming is being done properly.

[Bobbydylan]

Something like this:

 

 

 

[admin]

Any damage system where you know if you take X hit you'll sink is gamey.

 

This system exists in 100% of games, whether you burn from engine fire in War thunder, or die repairing a tank when it blows up in Battlefield. Computers only understand 1 or 0, so whatever the window dressing above it, under the hood there is always a number at the root.

[maturin]

But when you make death a factor of six or seven numbers, plus randomness and various contingencies, the human brain can no longer understand the numbers, and it begins to seem completely natural and non-mathematical.

 

When ships sink slooooowly based on specific leak-causing hits, and can be kept afloat almost indefinitely if the crew abandons the guns, or when ships often lose the ability to fight because of crew morale, fires, or destroyed rigging...

When it all happens differently every time and each ship is different, then no one will complain about the hitpoints working silently in the background.

[tater]

This system exists in 100% of games, whether you burn from engine fire in War thunder, or die repairing a tank when it blows up in Battlefield. Computers only understand 1 or 0, so whatever the window dressing above it, under the hood there is always a number at the root.

That's always true for YOU, the dev in this game The rest of us have no need to know via a health bar.

 

WW2OL has no health bar for vehicles. Your tank has holes shot in it, and components may be damaged. You can be hit 10000 times by small arms, as they do no meaningful damage to a tank (of sufficient armor thickness), but the first AT shot might hit the ammo or fuel, and the tank brews up in one hit.

 

There are virtually no "instant kill" hits on an age of sail ship. You'd see masts coming down, holes, etc.

[Barberouge]

Damage would be very hard to read from one ship to another. Even crew would be hard to see, particularly given the smoke that will likely not be as persistent in game. Blood in the scuppers is not a terrible idea, and in fact a small amount of blood turns a great deal of water red though, so a tint to it would indicate someone was wounded, past that? <shrug>

 

 

There could be shark fins behind damaged ships, and flying dolphins at the bow of others ? Then players could also fish

 

More seriously, I'd be fine with HP bars, but the trick would be to shape them in an ergonomic way. They should provide a quick and intuitive reading. As for opponents damage state, I feel that not displaying it as an HP bar would create a difficulty for the players to track and remember which ship they damaged and where it went.

 

But I'd be fine with more immersion if it wouldn't mean too much TS communication required.

[tater]

Health bars are weak.

 

"I'll not fire at him right now, as he's a heartbeat from sinking, I'll shift fire to that fresh ship that I have not even seen int he last 10 minutes through the smoke because I magically know he's fresh."

[Barberouge]

Same as on-ship displayed damage, except easier to read.

[Johny Reb]

Health bars are weak.

 

"I'll not fire at him right now, as he's a heartbeat from sinking, I'll shift fire to that fresh ship that I have not even seen int he last 10 minutes through the smoke because I magically know he's fresh."

Your right here. Being able to see the enemies damage bars is a magical skill in itself. Testing NA, I have often held shots on one NPC because I saw he was taking on water and so I shot at the fresher ship that wasn't because I saw information that I shouldn't have.

[Marion van Ghent]

As for opponents damage state, I feel that not displaying it as an HP bar would create a difficulty for the players to track and remember which ship they damaged and where it went.

 

I read this as "would require player skill," which is a good thing, n'est-ce pas? It becomes a lot easier if we see player names or ship names on an in-game HUD. You've been pounding the Agamemnon for 15 minutes, the Lion comes up to relieve and provide her cover... then the Agamemnon circles around to the rear of the line... it's still the same ship you hammered, possibly with some repairs, but in the end you'd still remember who she was and that she was forced out of formation for a while. Unless, of course, you have the attention span of a gnat.

 

As Admin says, obviously, when you dig down to the machine language, it's all 1s and 0s. But maturin has a point about layering those 1s and 0s deep enough that a player would be oblivious to them. Give players enough other cues and any sort of HP bar becomes superfluous and, IMO, takes away an opportunity for player skill to shine through.

[Barberouge]

I wouldn't call that skill, but it was the rest of my post