Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Trading and economy feedback

Recommended Posts

let me know your findings here. If this does not work then there are definitely bugs in the self adjusting pricing mechanisms

Been to several ports: Codrington, Island Harbor, and Macao, French wine sells for only 100 and none have it.  Yesterday at Plymouth, which consumed french wine, sold only for 100 and it's store was empty of french wine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

other than historical artifacts what are the other regional goods?

also i hope everyone realizes that at current margins no profit can ever be made from national goods by any other nation except the producing one.

Edited by pugtm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Economics 101, supply and demand,  the magic of "shortages" and "shazam" maybe we will have "armed convoy escorts"?

 

Please use this topic for

  • propose ideas for new resources
  • propose improvements for current systems
  • show exploits and problematic areas
  • discuss pricing, npc buying, and other things
  • also ask questions

Basically lets start iterating and improving trading.

 

At first I didn't pay much attention to trading.  Then I heard about fantastic profits and "fortunes" being made overnight and decided to give it a try.  So this was my (limited) experience:

 

Over the past 5 days I spreadsheeted every (neutral) port on the north and west coast of Dominica and the islands south from Plymouth to Marin.  I even cataloged who "produced" and who "consumed" so I could estimate where shortages might show up and money could be made.   There were some good bargains at first.   So, with only my Belle P. I loaded up with this and that at a low price and headed out to see where I could sell high.  I found a few sell ports and made some money.  Not a lot, but a enough.  Then, a few days later, on the return trip, it seemed that ports that were "consumers" were now "producers", prices had evened out (which they kinda sorta should in a trading economy) and any thoughts of "predicting" what would be in short supply (shortages) went out the window.  But I made a little on the way back.  PS: In all these ports gold and silver were almost the same price everywhere?

 

With all the time and effort of, trading, spreadsheets, getting jumped by bad guys and worry about "resets" I could make almost as much sinking a Trinc or 2 even after the repairs.

 

My little "Trader Snow" however, still sits in port even tho it can carry 3 times the cargo.   At this point, low rewards, risks of pirates and the real danger of enemy encounters on the way have caused LLoyds of London to cancel my insurance on the Snow!   I certainly understand that there are probably "fortunes" to still be made in the remote corners of OW where this or that are nonexistent or in demand.   But that's a long way to sail in a hostile world without knowing if it will be profitable.

 

Enter "convoy escorts"!   What an idea!  Just like the real world!  (Even back then.)  But now I have to pay somebody to guard (read fight) for my ship?  Fine, but the rewards need to be great enough to cover the extra cost.  And then some.  

 

Here are a few ideas:

1.  And most important:  If a port "produces" something it can't switch to "consuming" overnight (or even at all!) if trading is to be encouraged.

2.  As someone already said, perhaps ports need to "produce" more and "consume" more of whatever to keep supply and demand going and the economy viable. 

3.  If "escorts" are to be part of the game,  the profits need to be great enough to pay for it with a system of "profit sharing" to reward the escorts.

4.  Knowing what is needed where:  At this point there is no way I could know what is needed in Galveston Texas without sailing there.  It would be helpful if you could publish at least a spreadsheet of who "produces" and who "consumes" what so traders could see where shortages "might" exist and plan accordingly.

5.  Add more goods to trade:  Coffee, "Jesuit's Bark" ( Google it.), sugar, rum, "manufactured goods" (pots and pans, shovels etc), textiles etc to expand the economy.  Lots of previous posts and suggestions here already.

6.  TS exploitations?   Will this be a problem?  A player in several ports reporting what is needed or not?  Even in the real world they had communications so merchants had information about prices shortages etc.  Yeah, they were slow, but so was life.  Maybe it will encourage more exploration and trading?

7.  Unpredictable stuff:  Hurricanes, wars, crop failures, mine cave-ins, plunderers, pestilence, fires in the warehouse, etc?  Might be nice to throw a few in to juice thing up?

 

Finally:  I know some folks are hard core gamers and are in it for the "warrior" experience.  Trading is for sissy's.   That's fine.  Trading adds a whole different dimension to the game.   I know nothing about on-line gaming so my ideas are from that perspective.   But I love this game!!  Just sailing around the islands and experiencing the the adventures and dangers along the way is worth the trip (IMHO)!  My congratulations and keep it up guys!.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading the admins post about how the trading system is working at the moment i looked into the spredsheet i made at my first trading trip right after the new system started, that day i collected data from 44 ports (4 national and 40 neutral) about what they produce and consume. Since I think its a good enough sample size of the around 300 (?) ports currently in game, I will di some staticis at this point.

So on average those ports had 3 production slots and 3 consume slots which looks balanced at the first glance. But if you consider that we only have 7 really trade-able goods out of the 17 goods overall and then only look at those then it changes to an average of 2 production and 1.6 consummation slots for those good, it is unbalanced towards production. Why only 7 trade-able goods? Because silver/gold ingots and historical artifacts are useless atm, they are produced a lot but the max stock is 1000 and at that stock they sell at a price you will earn nothing if you sell them in a port with 0 stock, also they are only consumed in the national capitals. That is 3 useless goods, the other once are all the national goods, because there is only on production slot (capital) for them but a lot of consumption slots, which means the stock in the capital will always be near the unprofitable threathold. Also most ports will never see them so a lot of consumption slots are been wasted on them, since you can't consume from 0 stock.

An other thing the average daily production rate of most goods is around 1 normal ship hold (10 slots) and the production and consumption slot are randomly new assigned every maintenance.

 

What does that all mean for the current trading system: All ports (with the exception of national captials) will have a full stock of silver/gold ingots and historical artifacts, in the long run every port will have a near full stock of all the woods, iron, coal and limestone and a nill stock of all the national trade goods and that is without any player interaction. Due to the player interaction this long run scenario just got accelerated from the initial distribution where the ports had only the goods they first produced at the max stock. In the near future the trading system is approaching a constant no profit situation, since the player will transport goods from port to port till it runs out of a profit margin and since ports switch randomly between consuming and producing good they won't have a chance to build up or deplete a stock to an extent to make it profitable for player to trade at all. (Atm the ports are production/consuming once per hour until they hit the max/min stock)

 

So what might improve the current trading system:

For on thing there should be some stability what a port produces and consumes, so the ports have a change to build up a stock or reduce a stock to a level where there is a profit margin.

A second thing is that the demand and production should be balanced overall or slightly towards consumption otherwise in the long run all ports will buildup enough stock of every good to make trading unprofitable.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just completed a major 40 plus port trading run. Generally I made a good profit by buying low and selling higher based on stocks. The system functioned fine. But I carried with me a couple of the rarer items that I picked up such as spice, Iberian meat and wine. What I noted was that the buying price of these goods was capped (below the price I bought for). This was even true in ports that had no stock and a demand. Example Vera Cruz consumes Iberian meat, has no stock but the buy price is 90, same as other ports that have no usage. Another example is Santa Ana with wine. I was anticipating that demand would drive the price up.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The trading should be and will be more difficult. Just take this system as a placeholder.

 

It will all change when you have:

Port buildings and upgrades.

Actual crafting that consumes ressources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's definitely going to have to have some motivation geared towards trading or people will be less likely to pursue that than combat. Gold is nice and all but what good does it do my team/nation/friends if all I'm doing is racking up the gold for my own benefit. Whatever you come up with, develop a system that gives traders a chance to actually impact the game world by their work.

 

Perhaps a clan/guild-based system could work as the community grows. You want to join a clan as a fighting captain, but say, they don't really need any more warship captains. What they really need is capital ($$$$$). They need skilled traders. They need a thriving home-port from which to get repairs or upgrades at discounted rates, and you're just the guy they need! (don't you feel special? :) )

 

Drawback could be that you'd almost need 'trader' to be a particular 'class', which some people might find constraining.

 

Anyone could trade but perhaps there could be some benefits associated with traders that don't exist for combat captains. (And likewise traders would miss out on some of the characteristics of fighting captains). Maybe traders could get slightly better deals on goods, but suffer a slight combat penalty. Vice-versa for fighters. Just an idea.

 

That system would also require clans to actually have an interest in protecting their traders. Because if I'm with a clan that just does a poor job of protecting its merchants then maybe I'll go find another clan and help their port's economy grow.

 

Has anyone discussed any sort of experience system for trading? There's only so much I can do with gold if I don't have the rank necessary to use the stuff I can buy with it. Maybe for every 10,000 gold worth of trading I do, I get x number of experience points. Someone who is the richest person in the game world might be able to exploit that for experience, but I'm guessing by the time they have that much money, they will already be at the highest rank anyway. Then again, I found some pails of water for fighting fire that are worth 20,000 gold, so, lol, prices might need some tweaking.

 

I never played POTBS but from what I've read/watched it was supposed to work something like that. Or maybe I'm waaay off. This was a brainstorming thread so I'll throw in some stupid ideas to see what sticks.

Edited by ajffighter86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right in assuming your suggestions are similar to the potbs trading system. With player crafting, ultimately resulting in port defense strength and the production of ships, trading will have real motivation at a national level. There may be some players that would be content to limit game play to trading, but as a long time player in potbs I did both with the aid of multiple characters. As long as players are limited to a single nation and account, I think multiple characters will be beneficial. There certainly needs to be a guarantee of preventing cross teaming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

let me know your findings here. If this does not work then there are definitely bugs in the self adjusting pricing mechanisms

gold, you cannot find gold under 500 which is the selling price when there is none in port. Nowhere is it possible to find a buy price under that

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been to several ports: Codrington, Island Harbor, and Macao, French wine sells for only 100 and none have it.  Yesterday at Plymouth, which consumed french wine, sold only for 100 and it's store was empty of french wine.

 

French wine is only produced in french capital. It is brought there from Europe. 

To trade large volumes of french wine you have to be french or neutral.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Пока ситуация такая. Я покупаю в кристианстаде пиво, везу его в три города на север, на острова, 10-15 минут в оба конца. Обратно какое-нибудь дерево. В общем за ходку 10000-20000. За час 50000-100000. На войне таких денег не сделать. Но такой дисбаланс сохраняется до тех пор, пока не будет много людей в игре. Когда торговцев начнут грабить, тогда у них доходы упадут, а у офицеров вырастут. 

Любой зашедший в магазин и нажавший на товар, должен увидеть кто его привез и продал. Из этого делать вывод о маршрутах и возможности засады на маршруте. Таким образом симулируем получение информации от нечестного владельца магазина, который наводит грабителей.

Уже сейчас я могу определить, по завозимому товару, откуда оно, особенно по национальным товарам в нейтральных рынках. Дайте еще побольше информации пожалуйста.

English translation

While the situation is. I buy a beer in Kristianstad, taking him in three cities in the north, on the islands, 10-15 minutes round trip. Conversely some wood. In general, for a pass 10000-20000. An hour 50000-100000. In war, that kind of money to do. However, such an imbalance is maintained as long as there will be many people in the game. When traders begin to plunder, while their incomes fall, and the officers will increase.

Anyone who has come into the store and click on the product must see who it was brought and sold. From this we conclude about the routes and the possibility of an ambush on the route. So we pretend to obtain information from a dishonest shopkeeper who leads the robbers.

Already, I can determine, for imported goods, from which it is, especially for national goods in neutral markets. Give even more information please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This post makes it sound like the current system is planned to be the final system, leaving the players out of the economy, except as haulers. Will there be no player exploitation of resources and production of manufactured goods?

Was this question answered?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pugtm: gold you cannot find under 500 gold which is the selling price when there is none in port. Nowhere is it possible to find a buying price under that.

 

 

I think that's because the economy as it is, is still fairly static. 

 

Basically Brunswick never changes, its demand will never change. Brunswick's population never grows or shrinks, it never adds new business, it never suffers from random events like rat infestations eating all the stocks of Iberian meat (or whatever rats might eat), it basically just requires X number of X goods all the time and that's that. Maybe a warehouse fire started and burned up most of the cotton they were waiting to export. That would affect the economy. —we need to have a more dynamic economy somehow.

 

Before the login servers just crashed, I was trying to sell coal at Brunswick, USA, and even though the port allegedly imports the stuff, they had 39,000 coal!!! They had 3x more coal than the port that was producing the stuff. Jeez, Why are the people of Brunswick importing it? Are they building a mountain with the stuff? Are they hoping if they put it in a pile and wait long enough it will turn into a giant diamond?

 

Now, if we were be able to influence the demand for the stuff, say, we want to build a cannon foundry in Brunswick which will need coal to fire the furnaces to melt the iron to make the cannons, well now we've actually got a use for the coal instead of it just being a number on the screen. They'll use coal faster and therefore the need to supply the port of Brunswick will become more obvious (and pay better than -4 gold per coal). I hope this is the sort of crafting system they aim to implement. Otherwise we're not really using goods in this world, we're just moving them around.

 

EDIT: Brunswick produces coal, and I feel stupid.

Edited by ajffighter86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am anxious to understand how the pricing works for a port consuming a certain resource. I see several people noting the same thing. When a port has consumes a certain product and has zero stock of that product the price does not appear to go up. Example I never found a market for spice above 200 gold irrespective of port demand. Same for wine and meat. Now I understand that the national capitol may sell these items cheaper. But is the maximum price for any product capped?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you sure some other enterprising Captain hadn't recently sold a large stock to them?  That huge pile might have been the result of a serious trade run.   :)

No, even in gold producing harbours i have never seen a price under 502

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, even in gold producing harbours i have never seen a price under 502

that is becouse the ports only produce it till the max stock of around 1000 and at that stock its 502 for buying. It is basicly the same with silver ingot and historical artifacts.

Also the prices are only depending on the stock and are independed from production and consumtion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Before the login servers just crashed, I was trying to sell coal at Brunswick, USA, and even though the port allegedly imports the stuff, they had 39,000 coal!!! They had 3x more coal than the port that was producing the stuff. Jeez, Why are the people of Brunswick importing it? Are they building a mountain with the stuff? Are they hoping if they put it in a pile and wait long enough it will turn into a giant diamond?

 

What you are describing - the excess of coal in a port that imports it - is the result of players drastically crashing local economies by exploiting the current trade system for a quick profit.

 

Originally, the port in question probably had really good sell prices for coal, so some player, or players, discovered this and began to sell coal here in vast quantities, until supply outstripped demand and the coal market crashed.

 

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that currently, local economies will recover with time, assuming players keep their hands off and allow the supply and demand levels to rebalance  themselves.

 

However, the problem of players exploiting local economies is widespread and is going to have to be addressed at some point.

 

When I play as a trader, I purposefully do not allow the selling price for a given item to drop below a certain level. I stop selling that item in that port and allow the sell price to bounce back. For example: I can buy oak for 2 and sell it for 9. But once the sell price drops to 7, I stop selling oak in that port. Unfortunately, many players, do not use such self control and instead will run the sell price down as low as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Disregard my previous comment, Brunswick PRODUCES coal, not imports it. :wacko::P

 

Finally I'm starting to make a profit at this trading thing but yeah, some things like gold don't seem to have much of a price diversity. 502 seems to be the price everywhere.

Edited by ajffighter86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK seriously, WTF is up with this.  Bought a stack of iron from an iron-producing town yesterday, for 96 gold per unit.  I then sailed halfway across the Caribbean searching for a port that consumes iron, and when I finally find one today... with 0 iron in stock, and a large demand per day... it pays for 80 gold per iron.  That's just WRONG.  Despite exhaustive effort finding both supply and demand, I am forced to accept a loss of 16 gold per unit under perfect circumstances.  It may be possible to turn a profit with some resources, but it is impossible for others.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You bought iron very high. Iron can be very profitable if you buy at 40-50 gold.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×