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Trading and economy feedback

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my Suggestion would be trade should have an influence on the port... when all resources are available at a port more ships and better Upgrades would be available or something... that would be nice :) also the port would Need plenty of sailers to spend their prize Money on fun stuff to flourish :P  u could add paying your Crew into economy System... and add morale to your Crew pending on their salarie ;)

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Resources should be varied based on the port and part of the world for sure, also there should be a more centrilized auction house similar to POTBS even if you still have to sail to that port to pick up your item.

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Please use this topic for

  • propose ideas for new resources
  • propose improvements for current systems
  • show exploits and problematic areas
  • discuss pricing, npc buying, and other things
  • also ask questions

Basically lets start iterating and improving trading.

I'd like to suggest a look at the x3 Game system

very well done, and the player can have a lot of fun just building up his trade empire

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Don't know if this has already been suggested but...

 

Please add a 'SELL ALL STACKS' button.  Selling 30 stacks one at a time is annoying :)

 

And a 'FILL CARGO HOLD' button.  For the same reason above :P

Edited by Booyaah
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I think the Resupply / Repair of a ship should be opened up a little too.  A ship in desperation might stop somewhere a long a coast or island and scavenge for supplies/water/resources for ship repair.   Within game terms I'd say that Foraging for supplies / getting repair materials should be much worse then going into port, IE, Maybe you can olny repair up to 75% of hull  or you can only fill your hold with half the rations you'd get in port or over lower quality.  This would leave the door open for a player driven economy but not force players to have to sink all there money into repairs and supplies, sometimes choosing the cheap side and foraging for the free stuff even those its dramatically of lower quality.

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I got some purple rum rations and went to sell them. They sell for 1000 gold, but the basic ones in the shop can be purchased at 1230. I know that (obviously) gear sells for less than purchase, but comparing the purple price to the grey price it seems really off.

 

Also I tried to F11 it, but F11 apparently locks my game up (in the harbor, anyway).

 

E: Nope, F11 locks the game in combat/OW too

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Don't know if this has already been suggested but...

 

Please add a 'SELL ALL STACKS' button.  Selling 30 stacks one at a time is annoying :)

 

And a 'FILL CARGO HOLD' button.  For the same reason above :P

This +1

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To me, the main exploit is the ability to "know his ports" as a poster wrote, that is the ability for a group or a single player to draw up the list of ports and of their prices (using chat) and to circulate it (on internet or on chat). Then a trader just has to buy here et sell there. Not much interest. That's farming to me.

 

XVIIIth century traders didn't know exactly the prices on a far away market, I guess. It took days or weeks to convey goods and I guess prices could change between the time a trader became aware of a price and the time his goods come in harbor. Simulating that would make trading a much more risky and fun business. Just my feeling of course, no actual knowing. However, it is not a matter of history but of fun.

 

To counter that farming effect due to chat and port listing, one may imagine a system based on a random profit margin.

You enter a port and bang ! you're said : "if you sell here this or that, you'll make a benefit or a loss of y gold".

 

Anyway, one could also have just approximative tendencies about margins, such as : "that port needs more product x than y" or "pay well product z". This information (and trends) should often change. However, traders could be able to communicate about them by chat.

Edited by LeBoiteux
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But they did know that x island produced sugar. and what port had shipyards that need raw materials and so on.
So it is a balance. I need to know where to move my goods, but not the exact price.

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I Agree. That's why I wrote about traders knowing general tendencies of each port :

Anyway, one could also have just approximative tendencies about margins, such as : "that port needs more product x than y" or "pay well product z". This information (and trends) should often change. However, traders could be able to communicate about them by chat.

Edited by LeBoiteux

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I did not read the topic because I have issues with time at the moment so dont know if already said, but the trading as it is does not work. Why it does not work?

Because even if you go to the other side of the world the price of the product is still the same as in the port near you. So greater risks sailing on unfriendly waters can not reward you.

Harbors demand things like Gustavia demands Danish beer (or Norwegian. Dont remember) but once you find it the harbor pays you less from it than it costs to by it.

The main problem seems to be that harbors get stuff trough magic and are never actually in need of some product if it's not delivered to them.

 

Also there should be somecind of relations with nations so that everyone is not war with each other. Player should have a way to find out wich nation is in war with hes own nation and

thus attack those nations in return and be able to trade with nations that are in peace at the moment.

 

Also those resourses that are rare as forexample Danish beer and demanded as Gustavia does demand them should in turn be at higher price if accuired even tough dutch are at war with Sweden, since it is more risky to get some Danish beer and bring it to the Swedish port.

 

 

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At the moment the hole production and demand system doesn't really seem to work. The port stock and are randomly redistributed after every server maintenance along with the state production and consumption values. Also it seem its impossible to make any profit with silver ingot, gold ingot and historical artifacts, since the random max stock of 1000 generates the same price for buy them as there respective max price for selling them in a port with no stock of this goods. For example historical artifact seem to have a max stock of 1000 and are sold for 150 gold at this stock, if you go to a port with no historical artifacts it buys them for 150 gold.

 

After the first maintenance after the last patch, all ports had only the goods they produces at their max stock, which made trading way to easy, just enter a port buy what they produce (except for the 3 trade goods that make no profit) and sail to the next port sell what they don't produce and buy what they make there.

 

With the current random stock distribution it is rather hard the make a good profit since all the stocks seem to be in the middle range, so a lot of sailing from port to port is needed to make any profit and every day you have to visited the ports again to know what they have in stock and what you can sell there.

 

Both cases are not really good the first generates to much easy profit for the players how come to an area first and move the stocks around till the profits gets to small. The second is a big time sink with small gain.

 

For one thing i would like to see the production/ consume system working over a few days without the stocks getting randomized after every maintenance. An other thing is to make trading with silver/gold ingots profitable. Also for no the prices are only depending on the number of stock in the port maybe it also factors in the production and demand in that port, so if a port produces a good the selling price could be a bit lower and the buying price a bit higher and if the consuming a good its could be the other way around, maybe for not consumed goods buying and selling prices could be a bit closer together and at the same stock somewhere between the other to cases.

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The trading system is off to a good start, but supply and demand won't work without production and consumption.   Since that may be some time off in terms of development, may I suggest an interim system.  For the time being, each port should produce two or three resources.  Ideally, they would be either mining or logging (not both).  The developers have introduced a good list of luxury items.  These should be available only in a few places--the capital and perhaps one or two other ports per nation.  Each port should have high demand for two or three resources and one or two luxury items.  Other resources and luxury items should be in low (but not negligible) demand.  Thus every day the supply of resources and luxuries should increase in the ports which produce them, by a large or small amount, depending on the production rate.  Each day the supply of resources and luxuries in every port should shrink by a large or small amount depending on the demand on that port.  These amounts should be fixed until the crafting system is ready.  Prices can thus reflect supply and demand at each port, and merchants can find out the sources of supply and where demand is greatest.  A constant, even if low level, demand for everything will keep ports from "filling up" with unwanted resources and luxuries.

 

Currently, with random changes every day, the trading system doesn't work.  Merchants can't figure out where supply and demand is.  If an interim system is set up, merchants can be a playable part of the game until such time as the full economic system is ready.

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OK. I have had enough of this trading. It really really does not work.

I'm playing Sweden. So there's only one harbor Gustavia plus ofcourse the neutral harbors.

I have just checked (Again) Gustavia, Roadport, Philipsburg, Marigot and Island harbor and there is literally nothing, nothing between these 5 harbors that I could trade even with a marginal profit.

Since the veryfirst day that the trading was added it has been the same. Not counting the few items that I have occasionally been able to trade with mimimum profit. (50 gold or so with full cargo)

I have not been able to profit at all.

It has also taken me countles of ours trying to trade in vain. Sailing to ports and looking the prices over and over and over. If there happened to be a marginal profit it was always gone by the time I had sailed back to some other port to get the product and returned to sell it.

 

Treding at the moment as sweden is totally useles and only irritates making you do useles work for nothing.

 

Worst thing about these harbors are the special items like the Dutch beer. I do not for the life of me understand why it is in the game at all. Same goes with Gold and Silver. The sell price goes never lower than anyone is willing to by anywhere.

I do not understand what is it that you devs did to the trading after the first day and why in the world you did it, but trading is something I will not be doing anymore.

Unfortunately trading was the reason I finally got interested in playing beta again. So I wont be playing beta either.

I realise that it's testing, but I have something more interesting and meaningfull to do in my life than waiting my time in a trading system that does not work at all. And yeas I am angry at the moment. So much wasted time on my part.

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chill dude. trading only just got put in. its gonna take more than a week to make it work

The thing that I dont understand is why trade was made purposly unprofitable by devs?

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Short answer: Players made it unprofitable :) by buying low and selling high evening out prices for some goods.

 

This lower margins are further worsened by the fact that some resources spawn but are not consumed in the destination ports - as someone said - stalling the prices in that port. We should make NPC buying more aggressive. that would solve the problem... 

 

This is how the system works currently

 

Normal ports (non capitals)

Production pricing

Port produce 1-3 items every hour depending on the size of the port.

Once the stockpile goes up the prices start to fall 

So if the stockpile is 0 the price will not fall initially - there is no point for a trader to buy in this port because the price will be sub optimal

If no one is buying stockpile will go up and prices will fall to the lowest possible level.

 

Consumption pricing

Port consume certain items per hour depending on the size of the port

If people are selling the stockpile goes up. If the consumption is lower than player selling the price will go down.

If no one is selling the stockpile will go down to 0 and prices will be at maximum. 

 

The easiest(only) way to make the profit is to find the item with 8000+ stock and sell it at the port that has 0 stock of that item 

 

Capitals and national goods

Every capital produce a special resource - National good. 

For example Gustavia produces Swedish iron

Swedish iron can be sold in any port but the maximum profit will be made only in ports that consume swedish iron.

Gustavia also buys some national goods from other countries and produces.

 

Regional goods

Regional goods are spawned in regional ports.

For example historical artifacts can appear in certain ports 

Only capitals buy them, but not all the time.

 

Stalling of prices is caused by non-consumption - players sell the items in the port that does not consume it - it creates stockpiles that is not big enough to cause prices to fall, but not small enough to allow more selling at a good price. In the future this will be a lesser problem because crafting will consume a lot of resources. We can some minimal consumption to all ports that will cause player created stockpiles to be bought out by NPCs.

 

Long distance differences are possible. 

For example most likely Swedish iron won't be a profitable trade around Gustavia - because players sell it in the nearby ports. But there are definitely ports around Havana or further that do require swedish iron and will guarantee a high price. 

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In last two days, during my cruise for the "Bellona of my heart" I made around 60K only trading.

 

All I did was always to buy the relatively cheapest thing and sell it in the port that really wanted to pay good money. Iron and coal proving most profitable for me. It also helped that I was all around the place....

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"The easiest(only) way to make the profit is to find the item with 8000+ stock and sell it at the port that has 0 stock of that item "

 

Thankyou

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"The easiest(only) way to make the profit is to find the item with 8000+ stock and sell it at the port that has 0 stock of that item "

 

Thankyou

 

let me know your findings here. If this does not work then there are definitely bugs in the self adjusting pricing mechanisms

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Short answer: Players made it unprofitable :) by buying low and selling high evening out prices for some goods.

 

This lower margins are further worsened by the fact that some resources spawn but are not consumed in the destination ports - as someone said - stalling the prices in that port. We should make NPC buying more aggressive. that would solve the problem... 

 

This is how the system works currently

 

Normal ports (non capitals)

Production pricing

Port produce 1-3 items every hour depending on the size of the port.

Once the stockpile goes up the prices start to fall 

So if the stockpile is 0 the price will not fall initially - there is no point for a trader to buy in this port because the price will be sub optimal

If no one is buying stockpile will go up and prices will fall to the lowest possible level.

 

Consumption pricing

Port consume certain items per hour depending on the size of the port

If people are selling the stockpile goes up. If the consumption is lower than player selling the price will go down.

If no one is selling the stockpile will go down to 0 and prices will be at maximum. 

 

The easiest(only) way to make the profit is to find the item with 8000+ stock and sell it at the port that has 0 stock of that item 

 

Capitals and national goods

Every capital produce a special resource - National good. 

For example Gustavia produces Swedish iron

Swedish iron can be sold in any port but the maximum profit will be made only in ports that consume swedish iron.

Gustavia also buys some national goods from other countries and produces.

 

Regional goods

Regional goods are spawned in regional ports.

For example historical artifacts can appear in certain ports 

Only capitals buy them, but not all the time.

 

Stalling of prices is caused by non-consumption - players sell the items in the port that does not consume it - it creates stockpiles that is not big enough to cause prices to fall, but not small enough to allow more selling at a good price. In the future this will be a lesser problem because crafting will consume a lot of resources. We can some minimal consumption to all ports that will cause player created stockpiles to be bought out by NPCs.

 

Long distance differences are possible. 

For example most likely Swedish iron won't be a profitable trade around Gustavia - because players sell it in the nearby ports. But there are definitely ports around Havana or further that do require swedish iron and will guarantee a high price. 

This post makes it sound like the current system is planned to be the final system, leaving the players out of the economy, except as haulers. Will there be no player exploitation of resources and production of manufactured goods?

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It is just to make trade available in some shape or form. You cannot give proper feedback on trading if there is no player consumption. This system might be the basis for a trade system but it will certainly be muuuuuch more interesting once player consumption and crafting are introduced. 

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