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Trading and economy feedback

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As I mentioned in another post having maximum cargo weight would be better.Each resource is a certain weight and you can carry upto your ships maximum weight.Maybe a full ship even sails slower and handles worse.

 

I like the idea of entering a Port and having sliders.With a colour indications that shows whether an item is below market cost,equal to market cost or above market cost.Having resource graphic icons would look better than a written texted word.

 

Have a look at the trading UI of games like  Rise of Venice,Port Royale,Anno 1404,Patrician IV and even a lot of Space trading games have good Trading UI's.You might get some inspiration from them.

 

A player doesn't want to click 100 times to load a ship.So either a click/hold and the amount increases automatically or slider.

 

I still think the current UI looks to modern for the game.It doesn't capture the time period.The sharp lines and clean cut look would suit a space game more.My opinion though.

Entering the port it would be nice to have some regional art and different looking merchants to deal with.Currently entering every port is the same.I have no idea what your plans are for the future in regards to this but part of the fun in such a big open world is to travel and explore.Variety entices exploration.If everytrhing is the same there is no need to discover and explore.

 

So I would love to see English Merchants,Native South American tribes people,Spanish,French,Swedes,Yanks etc all different in appearance selling me stuff.Sailing for many real life hours across the map I want to have variety.But I guess when a port gets taken over you need to have a change of art for the merchants too.It's probably too much work.But hey that's what I'ld like.A little bit of RPG in the trading.

 

Resources:

Don't forget Luxury goods as well Alcohol,Medicine plants,Tobacco,Sugar cane,small arms,clothing,stone geez you could have an endless list and Slaves if it's politically correct to use them in game.

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Smuggling would be awesome.

It would look like this:
Pirates in ports would sell their products very cheap, and wouldn't make high profit from it. But if they risk smuggling it to neutral ports they would make a normal profit.
Something like that.

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Also, If neutral players enter a pirate port, and buy a stuff from them to sell somewhere else: They will have red CONTRABAND info on OW. It would add some spice for playing Neutrals, and make their life more exciting.

Damn, I will leave my pirate character for smuggling as Neutral in any moment if they will add something like that.

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How is the system now each port has 2 goods that the had in the start 10000 units of each.

Prices change when you are buying the supply and same when its sold in other ports.

But the question i have is are the npc traders a part of this or are we to believe that all ports so far have 6-7000 iron in stock from player traffic ? 

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As Prater says above, supply and demand is key.  The trading system we have now is a good start, but it needs production and consumption to really work.  In addition to resources needed for crafting, there should be commodities (sugar, tobacco, manufactured goods, rum, luxuries, etc.) and food.  Each port should produce something, and each should have demand.  Food, manufactured goods, rum, and luxuries will always be in demand, with the amount of demand depending on the size of the port.  These commodities would be consumed by the population, so that the stock would decrease daily and need to be resupplied.  Demand for resources for crafting would depend on the presence of foundries, shipyards, etc.  A foundry, for instance, would need a supply of coal, iron, limestone and clay and could cast cannon.  Players could commission a ship from a shipyard, but it could only be built if all the necessary resources were present in adequate quantity.  If they were not sufficient, the player would have to either wait, or gather the resources himself, or hire a merchant to do it for him. 

 

Not every port would have crafting facilities (at the beginning of the game, they should probably be rather uncommon).  Players should be able to build plantations, foundries, shipyards, distilleries, etc. once they have gathered sufficient materials.  The cost should be high.  This would give guilds an opportunity to build up a small port into a major base, and to defend it against raids by other guilds. 

 

Some ports (the capital?) should be designated as the trading route to Europe (at least until a Europe map is added in the future).  They would have a high demand for sugar and tobacco and be the source of manufactured goods.  Perhaps there could be regular convoys between these ports and "off map" which would give players an incentive to protect them or raid them.

 

Since the 18th century was a time of mercantilism, not free trade, there should be restrictions on trading with the ports of another country, even an ally.  But there should also be a well developed smuggling system with very high profits for those who take the risks.

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How about if pirates had reputation levels with all nations, starting at enemies to all. By helping a nation out, joining a battle on their side you could gain enough rep with a nation to be able to trade in an unarmed ship at a select few ports? You would always be a pirate, but turn a blind eye to a captain that sunk enough French ships in the aid of a Brit. and you might get a 1 month trade pass into a port. But always an enemy still so if seen in a fighting ship the navy would still sink you on sight.

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If you really want to be a trader, how about not becoming a pirate in the first place?

 

"Yarr lads!  This day we be taking 1000 tons of hides to St. Augustine!  But we be going unarmed, and there will be no fighting or plundering, jest trading all quiet like.  Now be on yer best behavior!!!"

 

I can't see a pirate crew taking to that plan one bit.

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Actually it make some kind of sense.

Not all pirates were simply Pirates hunting other ships. Between pirates there were people who just didn't want to be ruled by Kings, Queens, criminals of any kind, and different professions. You are talking about pirates like they all were just bloodthirsty ship hunters. Im pretty sure that if it was true, the pirate ports wouldn't even exist in that period of time cause people would starve to death or something.

Not every pirates was skilled ship hunter, there was and always be many ways how to make profit in illegal way. And one of them was smuggling?
But then again I'm thinking that smuggling should be allowed for everyone, making it an easy way to earn gold, but very risky. It could even have option "get caught and defeated/surrender few times by player when you have contraband in your hold - You will get reputation so low, that it will turn You to pirate in the eyes of the mighty goverment/king/queen/friends.

About sailing in unarmed ship to be able to smuggl? It's a bad idea in my opinion.

Or, as I said earlier, give smuggling option only for Neutral nation (whatever it will be in future).

EDIT:

I started talking about smuggling just because the pirate economy will be closed and isolated from all other, and I'm just not sure if it will be a good idea.

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They can sell their ill gotten goods to fences at Pirate ports.  I'd like to see a contraband tag applied to those goods.  The question is how they'd interact in the market at large?  Sellable in neutral ports at half their normal value?

 

You also have a good point on non-combat captain pirates.  We need to differentiate pirates - they're not a nation.

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They can sell their ill gotten goods to fences at Pirate ports.  I'd like to see a contraband tag applied to those goods.  The question is how they'd interact in the market at large?  Sellable in neutral ports at half their normal value?

 

You also have a good point on non-combat captain pirates.  We need to differentiate pirates - they're not a nation.

 

What if you stole from a legit trader and put the merchandise in unmarked boxes and resold it?  I really doubt they had a strict system of adherence for detecting and buying stolen goods in the Bahamas back in the day, they were probably just happy to get any supplies back then.

 

And like someone said above, not all pirates are marauders, some just didn't want to live under the rules and laws of a nation, does that mean ppl would not want to accept their goods?  In today's world I would compare it to the ppl that sell stuff on Craigslist vs corporate retail stores.  I doubt anyone pays taxes on most of those sales :)

Edited by Booyaah

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Customs was fairly strict back then.  This was because whatever local Government existing at a port was charged with collecting taxes and tariffs and sending those back to the central Government.  Ships had bills of lading with stamps and other assurances as to their origin and departure.

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Customs was fairly strict back then.  This was because whatever local Government existing at a port was charged with collecting taxes and tariffs and sending those back to the central Government.  Ships had bills of lading with stamps and other assurances as to their origin and departure.

 

 

Just become Jean Lafitte.

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Deep breath...

 

Without industry and manufacturing, 'trading' is just shuffling widgets around a map for little profit and no purpose.  It's just a time-killing exercise with no strategic goal.

 

A ship should have ship's stores (for repairs), ship's provisions, gunpowder, water, cannonballs, rum, and then the leftover space could be used for cargo.

 

We need industry and manufacturing.  We need a full line of trader-specific ships - from trader's brigs (or smaller) to enormous East Indiamen.  We need agricultural and geological resources to be spread over the map.  We need the ability to create plantations, rough manufacturies (where raw materials are turned into basic products) and industries (where basic products are turned into finished goods).  We need shipyards (a level of construction beyond industry) that can be improved and enlarged, trading docks and auction houses that likewise can be improved, a reputation system that permits the construction and improving of all of the above.

 

We need a system based on reputation that allows for the installation and improvement of harbor defenses, and trade density should determine population which will determine availability of non-player made goods and services.  

 

Once a system is in place with agricultural and geological goods placed across the map, with areas of production and trade hubs - then you will see play evolve into logical patterns.  Captains will make decisions based on time, effort, and profit as to where they build and improve industry, where they build ships, where they make port improvements, etc.

 

Players should be making everything - ships, modules, cannon, ammunition, ship's stores, ship's provisions, barrels (for water, rum, molasses, sugar, etc) as well as ships and their modules.  NPC-supplied or created items should be of only basic quality.

 

Ship durabilities should be reduced drastically or removed altogether.  Once they are gone, the demand for ships and modules will drive the industry and the game will have a very robust and complicated economic model.

 

Exhale.

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As AI carry contraband and can be taken WHY not players, you ship contraband you get VERY high pay, but your also a Target.

 

More Common goods, RUM, Flour, Livestock, etc.

 

Traders ONLY start with 100 gold.

 

Ability to add AI fleets for protection of TRADER;s only [Pos testing]

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If you really want to be a trader, how about not becoming a pirate in the first place?

 

"Yarr lads!  This day we be taking 1000 tons of hides to St. Augustine!  But we be going unarmed, and there will be no fighting or plundering, jest trading all quiet like.  Now be on yer best behavior!!!"

 

I can't see a pirate crew taking to that plan one bit.

A pirate attacked ships for the rewards they could get, they were not after a bit of pvp after all. These rewards came in the form of goods, goods that needed to be sold or traded to allow them to resupply there ships and maintain their existence.

Where ever their own base was they were not very likely to have need of the majority of the plunder they stole, 1000 tons of hides is a tad more than a pirate crew would need or be able to use within their own group, they would need to sell them somewhere else.

Now if you are a pirate and you want to sell some stuff to an English port, (or any port) do you jump in your bad ass pirate ship fly the jolly roger, cannons at the ready shouting arrrg we be here to sell our ill gotten gains, or do you perhaps get a trader to do it for you, or if you do not trust said trader do you not sneak into port in a very low profile ships with no guns showing, (being on your best behavior so as to not attract  attention, smuggling and selling stolen goods calls for that you see), in a captured trader yourself?

It was just an idea, not married to it lol, but poo pooing it for the reasons you did seem a bit wrong.

I can totally see a pirate taking that plan.

 

 

Edit  how about traders visiting pirate bases to buy goods and sell them for the pirates, once a month the visiting merchant calls at your port ( set time when merchants/smugglers can visit, 1st - 3rd of the month or something and up to you to make sure you sell to him when he is there, maybe pirates could have bigger warehouses to keep plunder for the traders visit?? Just an idea. The smuggler/trader would have to have some sort of standing with the pirates, not the normal traders who are food for the pirates after all.

Edited by MikedaBike

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Here are two ways you could handle the buying and selling of goods in ports.

  1. EVE style market where players set the price of the goods they're selling and leave them there until they're sold. They look through the list of goods available and buy whichever they want at the prices they're willing to pay. Think of this like the eBay 'buy now' for players unfamiliar with this kind of mechanic.

    This system creates a very life like, organic trading system that players with an interest in trading and economy can run wild with. It is however a little long winded for those without the desire for too much inventory management.
     
  2. Each port has one trader and he has a stock value for each commodity in the game. A player can buy his stock and sell him stock. The buy and sell price change according to how much of each commodity that port has in stock. If port A has 1000 ton of sugar he will sell low and buy low. If port B only has 1 ton in stock they will pay far more and charge far more also. You would ideally buy from A to sell to B.

    An example of how this would look.

    This way prices are regulated by the system, it makes everything safe (no scams) for the players and streamlines the whole in port trading process for those players wanting a quick in & out of port experience.

 

Goods like food, wood, livestock are consumed by both the player the port itself (towns people purchasing them). Certain ports generate stock in found in that location while they rely on import of others, generating regular trade routes for players to run. Certain ports consume more of some resources, turning them into another, example Port A go through grapes faster than others meaning they're often in short supply and usually pay a handsome price. The same port produces a surplus of wine from the grapes, so this can be bough relatively cheap and sole elsewhere creating triangle trade for merchants.

 

I think adjacent to both system players must be able to trade directly with each other. This can be implemented with a sort of dual drop box system. I add my goods for trade (can be money, wood, food, crew etc.) in the box and lock in the offer, the other party does the same and then both can confirm the transfer should they be happy with the offer. Kind of like the system used in Runescape.

Edited by SueMyChin
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Here are two ways you could handle the buying and selling of goods in ports.

  1. EVE style market where players set the price of the goods they're selling and leave them there until they're sold. They look through the list of goods available and buy whichever they want at the prices they're willing to pay. Think of this like the eBay 'buy now' for players unfamiliar with this kind of mechanic.

    This system creates a very life like, organic trading system that players with an interest in trading and economy can run wild with. It is however a little long winded for those without the desire for too much inventory management.

     

  2. Each port has one trader and he has a stock value for each commodity in the game. A player can buy his stock and sell him stock. The buy and sell price change according to how much of each commodity that port has in stock. If port A has 1000 ton of sugar he will sell low and buy low. If port B only has 1 ton in stock they will pay far more and charge far more also. You would ideally buy from A to sell to B.

    An example of how this would look.

    This way prices are regulated by the system, it makes everything safe (no scams) for the players and streamlines the whole in port trading process for those players wanting a quick in & out of port experience.

 

Goods like food, wood, livestock are consumed by both the player the port itself (towns people purchasing them). Certain ports generate stock in found in that location while they rely on import of others, generating regular trade routes for players to run. Certain ports consume more of some resources, turning them into another, example Port A go through grapes faster than others meaning they're often in short supply and usually pay a handsome price. The same port produces a surplus of wine from the grapes, so this can be bough relatively cheap and sole elsewhere creating triangle trade for merchants.

 

I think adjacent to both system players must be able to trade directly with each other. This can be implemented with a sort of dual drop box system. I add my goods for trade (can be money, wood, food, crew etc.) in the box and lock in the offer, the other party does the same and then both can confirm the transfer should they be happy with the offer. Kind of like the system used in Runescape.

 

 

The way EVE works does seem to have a rather stable economy, i am not paying more for ships now than when i started 18 months ago, sure players can influence and play the market, but because players build everything and when they die lose everything in their ship (and person if podded) this seems to prevent inflation getting out of hand, which is an important factor in the long term health of any economy. With out that behind it EVE is just another broker base system found in many mmo's with the exception that you can only buy what that broker is selling in that station where as in some the broker is game wide. Station or broker trading takes place in many games as a way of making money. 

 

There must be more ore mined in EVE than you could imagine as at some point almost everyone does it, but the prices fluctuate slightly round an average price largely due to the volume of ships destroyed in pvp, the Caldari/Gallente fighting over kehjari saw 1500 ships destroyed in a day, 3000 over the weekend for example and all those ships, modules and munitions will need to be replace (well minus the modules captured).

 

I don't know how violent this game will be in regards to ship losses, but if it is light then recourse gathering will be low as there will eventually be a saturated market as the high end ship builders see no need to be producing many ships as not enough are lost and the will not want 10's of ships sat unsold on the broker (tho the first shipbuilders will no doubt make a profit as players race to reach the end level ships).

 

At the moment we have durability so you would be getting x5 the value from the finished product compared to the resource investment, so there will always be more resources available than demand requires making the profit vs time investment very poor, unless town consumption is very high to remove the stock excesses to maintain prices, but then selling the resources might simply become more profitable per hour invested than building ships.

 

The second looks like Port Royal (tho it might not be), that is fine as players move from one location to another making profit from npc's but that money is magically created as freshly minted money every time someone sells something. This will create high inflation the longer the game runs as the value of currency is diluted every time more is generated.

 

The only way i can think of to off set that would be for players to have to carry the gold when sailing in order to buy goods and not have it transferred instantly from banks, so if you are sunk the gold you had is lost too along with any cargo. There should be banks for you to deposit in however to ensure that not all wealth is put at risk. Again tho if few ships are sunk this doesn't get rid of enough money and if captured the money merely moves from one player to another.

 

In the long run it doesn't matter to much which way they decide to go with the economy or crafting, what matters most of all is that they find an effective way to control the in-game inflation to maintain some level of stability, which is far more difficult to achieve.  

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At the moment we have durability so you would be getting x5 the value from the finished product compared to the resource investment, so there will always be more resources available than demand requires making the profit vs time investment very poor, unless town consumption is very high to remove the stock excesses to maintain prices, but then selling the resources might simply become more profitable per hour invested than building ships.

 

If you were to crate a ship with x5 durabilities you would need x5 the resources to build it. I think you're over thinking that.

 

The second looks like Port Royal (tho it might not be), that is fine as players move from one location to another making profit from npc's but that money is magically created as freshly minted money every time someone sells something. This will create high inflation the longer the game runs as the value of currency is diluted every time more is generated.

 

It's from Age of Pirates. The money isn't magically created, if I, a player want to buy goods I need to have the money to buy them. If a store wants to buy good from me they need to have the money to do so. I make money from trade capturing ships. The store makes money from selling the resources produced in that town.

 

The only time anything is magically created is when resources are produced in the town and ships/goods/items are spawned into the game.

 

So long as ships only spawn at the same rate they are sunk and resources (food for example) are consumed at the same rate they are created there is no inflation so to speak.

 

If there were to be any the system could be easily adjusted to counter it too.

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Having played and made a lot of in game money in both EVE and GW2. I like the idea of having information of prices from other ports even if that information is dated (sail time delays would be fine).

 

I think Suemychin is on the money with the outline of the 2 systems and im not sure which way works better for this game.One thing i know for sure is that the NPCs need to be moving the resources around on the OW in trade ships.  

Edited by Jack Feathersword
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What do you guys think about all ships requiring you to be stocked with provisions like food/water and medicine?  Each day after you sail a fixed amount of those resources gets taken, if you run out of supplies, your crew start dying or an infection starts breaking out?  Or is that too meaningless of a thing?

Edited by Booyaah
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I'd like to see the need to supply your ship personally.  This opens up far more crafting items and also the strategy of needing to resupply and find supplies once ports are capturable and you're operating away from a friendly port.

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That's where trading / crafting and crew (morale...) / resupply / ship maintenance management meet.

Very interesting.

Edited by LeBoiteux
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