Tacking

[Ryan21]

It is absolutely mandatory in real life, in the game you could probably get away with not doing it, because few people will notice it's wrong, and hey its a game. 

 

How can I explain this..  The courses have three lines attached to each clew, or bottom corner of the sail.  One is the clewline for hauling it back up to the quarters of the yard, one is the sheet, and one is the tack.  When running downwind with the yards squared you set the courses "betwixt the sheets" so the sheets both get hauled aft until the right sail trim is achieved.  When you are on a port or starboard "tack" the windward clew of the courses must be tacked down, there is a small spar called a boomkin, 2 of them, one for each side of the ship that sticks out at about a 40 degree angle from the bow.  These will have a block at the end that the tack line reeves through and then leads inboard and aft over the caprail to a cleat.  So when you are on a "tack" the weather clew of the course gets hauled forward and down to this boomkin and she leeward sheet gets hauled aft, for the courses this creates the proper sail shape for being braced up, because they are not sheeted to a yard below them this is how they are controlled. 

 

You always "tack down" or board your weather tack before hauling the leeward sheet, and visa versa when rising tacks and sheets or taking in the sail entirely the tack always goes first.  Its a safety and control measure, if your in any kind of decent wind and you let the leeward sheet go, you have a lot of sail violently flogging at or above your head level, hauling the windward clew first while easing the tack controls the sail much more effectively.  So as for easing them around while you tack, depending on the sail size, and some of this were huge on big ships, the sail could get hung up on the caprails and various other things above deck height, when rising tacks and sheets you dont completely take the sail in, you essentially just get it up out of the way, so dont haul the bunts or leeches, just the clews, and only bring them 3/4's of the way up. 

 

You really dont lose any appreciable speed in doing this, as the ship has tons of inertia at this point, and you cant brace without doing it so it is standard operating procedure, when the courses are set that is, if you choose not to set them then you dont have to worry about it.  In fact alot of ship actions were fought with reduced sail set to simplify and speed up maneuvers, also with the foresail set you cannot see past the quarterdeck so you have to rely on lookouts, which in a battle would not be the quickest method so alot of the time I am sure they would simply have taken the courses in or reefed them to have a proper line of sight.

 

As for the game, It doesnt really seem like something that anyone but someone like me would notice, and it wouldnt bug me that much if it wasn't in there.

 

Those two black spars lashed onto the head rails with a block at the end of the starboard one, those are the boomkins for the course, and the mainsail would have seperate tack positions as well.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/116121315@N07/12257121073/

[Johny Reb]

Well I've often thought about this exact thing while playing PotBS. If I'm to believe the numerous volumes of nautical fiction, then "battle sails" was the norm. In PotBS no one fights under battle sails and only really uses it to get a little extra accuracy. Its always bothered my historical senses. But what mechanic in this game could encourage battle sails as the norm during fights? I'm not sure, other than a 1st person perspective or something very close to it would force me to do it for reasons of visibility.

[Ryan21]

I have learned to take most nautical fiction with a grain of salt, but in the case we are discussing reduced sail was very common unless the wind was so light that maneuverability would be hampered, it varied by situation of course there was no standard suit of sails used for action, but in moderate wind topsails, one or two jibs, and the Spanker was pretty common. Topgallants and royals add manpower to maneuvers because with each mast the topgallants and royals have 2 braces that need hauling or easing during maneuvers. Patrick o Brian's books are the closest to reality I have read but now and then there are flaws, this topic is very complex

[Ryan21]

If you look at my thread about heavy weather management there are a couple of solid pieces of data that may solve this issue as well, a diagram of in what order sail is shortened as the wind increases from seamanship in the age of sail. If these steps were implemented you could simply hit a shorten sail button and individual sail management would become unnecesary

[Brigand]

Ideal would be: the option to work out your own different sail configurations and assign them to hotkeys. If you're not interested in the detail, you would just use the default configurations provided by the game.

These sail configurations should not be applied instantly, but should result in the order being given and the sailors going to work on the sails as commanded.

 

~Brigand

[Ryan21]

That sounds perfect to me, custom hotkeys would be great, with a standard config of course!

[admin]

Ryan you can use the edit button if you want to add something to you post. It is a little bit confusing to see so many posts 

 

 

Edit: By no helm control, I mean that instead of directly influencing the rudders, your A and D keys really just select headings that the ships follows unerringly. There's no lee or weather helm, no easing in the gusts or sneaking up towards larger seas, none of the art of close-hauled sailing, etc. The ship follows your orders exactly.

 

Current control system is the following

W S - setting sails with several stages. 

AD - rudder control 

QE - Front yards control

ZC - Mid and Back yards controls 

 

Against the wind ship is pushed back. 

[maturin]

Can we set sails individually with some sort of advanced options? It wouldn't be unusual for a ship to have only the fore course set, or perhaps furl the small mizzen topsail when dead downwind. Even if it doesn't have a big effect on gameplay, you'll make a lot of enthusiasts very happy for not very much effort at all. As I've said, people will want to play dress-up with their floating dollhouse.

[Barberouge]

Got a wall ready, but it'll be for another time.

 

As Admin said somewhere, to get a good open world, a good naval combat is needed first. I'd add: to get a good naval combat, a good sails management is needed first. I think Ryan's explainations open the possibility to make sails management both more realistic and more interesting.

 

I know that the look of the sails isn't the priority right now, but a better look could help understanding the effects of the wind on the ship. Which could help to complexify the auto-skipper. Which could help to add new interesting options to the experienced mode.

 

If we skip the look of the sails, I'd say that the next step should be to tune the current effects of yard trimming. There's shouldn't be just more turning radius when we put the yards on one side. For example, the effect of yards trim making the sails flap could be added. Then the effect of yards trim putting the sails in a 'stalled flow' or 'attached flow' mode could be added. I don't have the necessary english vocabulary yet, but it's about how a ship can make headway around the direction of the wind (<90°).

 

The differentiation between auto-skipper and experienced is interesting because it helps finding out which actions were necessary to some basic maneuvers, which actions made the maneuvers more effective, and which actions enabled more advanced maneuvers (box hauling for example).

 

 

 

Maybe there would be no need to manage every sail, but the final question should be (IMO): which maneuvers could be reproduced ? - i.e.: what would be interesting regarding naval combat gameplay ?

 

Also, this would depend on the difficulty of crew focus management and aiming. Also, some ships (small) could be easy to tack, as maybe other ones (3-deckers ?) could require the use of the experienced mode ? The key point about tacking is IMO: what happens when a ship doesn't have enough speed, and can't turn using only auto-skipper (because of bad preparation, too big ship or too light wind) ?

 

That being said, trying to answer the OP now (based on Ryan's explainations):

1) The headsails are eased off

2) The helm is put a-lee

3) When head to weather, the mainsails and mizzensails are braced to the new tack - but the foresails aren't, and become set aback

4) The headsails are also sheeted in

4) When the mainsails and mizzensails fill with wind, the foresails are braced to the new tack too

 

I didn't add the spanker yet, but we can already see the differences:

1) foresails and mainmast+mizzensails don't always only decrease the turning radius

2) the headsails also have a specific procedure

 

 

 

I got questions for Ryan:

1) Can the headsails be set aback (like in my recreational catamaran) ?

2) Can the spanker be set aback ?

 

 

 

To sum it up: it's difficult to answer yet, but I think there's some room to complexify both the auto-skipper and the experienced mode. And this thread contains lots of useful info. It's quite difficult to think about this subject without knowing how the ships move exactly (formulas). Also I agree with comments about UI.

[Ryan21]

You can back the headsails during stack if the tack is going really slow and your worried about missing the tack, the Spanker either gets hauled right center or to windward during a tack to really kick the stern around and push the bow through irons.

[Baggywrinkle]

A couple of quick questions for the devs:

Forward and aft yard control is mentioned. Is this exactly what you mean, or do you actually refer to forward and aft sails? I'm thinking of the lovely tops'l cutter in the forum banner for example. Will Q/E deal with headsails and Z/C the mainsail? Cos it'd be nice if so...

Also is yard (/sheet) control a discrete system? Are there set positions for the 5 main points of sail, or is it a more 'in a bit, out a bit' thing? May I advocate the first option

To answer your initial request for a description of 'manual' tacking process generic enough to cover all confirmed rigs:

*Player decides to tack.

*Player clicks 'trim for hard on the wind' option on the UI/pushes relevant keys if not already.

*Player orders helm to be put down/pushes relevant key.

*As vessel head comes up into the wind, players decides appropriate moment to sheet in sails aft and back sails forward using the control keys mentioned/clicking on UI.

*As vessel pays off on new tack (hopefully!) player decides when to power up the rig and trim for new point of sail.

The profit is a more generally tidy tack, increasing either (I would suggest) rate of turn or speed carried through to the new tack with a sweet spot giving an advantage to both over autotack, and being able to make use of any modelled conditions, like the impact of sea state. Don't give any info about when the opportune moments to alter sheets, let it come with experience

Baggy

Ps. For what it's worth, I'd like to see a clickable UI for sail trim with the options

*pinned (fore-and-aft sails sheeted in to weather bringing the clews to the centerline)

*close hauled (squares braced sharp up, f-and-a's sheeted hard in)

*fine reach (sheets and braces eased from the above)

*beam reach (halfway point all round)

*broad reach (ease all again, watch that log run!)

*running (squaresails set dead square, f-and-a's sheets let right off).

In addition I would like Q/Z to move me step by step through this list sheeting in/bracing up to port and out on starboard, and E/C in on starboard out on port tacks. Hope this makes sense, is interesting for us punters and helpful for the devs!

[Barberouge]

Basically it's the angle of the sails to the ship which is controlled (both the braces and the sheets). There are a couple buttons for all the square sails of the foremast, and a couple buttons for all the square sails of both the mainmast and the mizzenmast.

 

The control is analogic (you have to keep pushing the button until the sails are at the angle you want).

 

I like the set positions system, at least for tacking. But I'm not sure it is intended to make players find the best trim of the sails depending on the point of sail. ATM it is automatic, in any case.

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for the info. Have you been able to sail any of the vessels which aren't fully square-rigged?

The analogue sail control is the more interesting and fun, but also the more complex. Having theought about it a fair bit I think set positions better strike the balance between playability/friendliness and control and accuracy of manoeuvres. As ever, I'd love to be proven wrong though!

Baggy

[Barberouge]

On smaller vessels the effect is the same but less sails move. I couldn't remember how exactly though.

 

I'm personally a big fan of set positions on keybinds, because it's the best setup to fully look at the battle evolution (thus to have a better reaction time). I only used the 3 keybinds in PotBS (furled, battle, full), except when approaching in line.

[BrutishVulgarian]

I think having to reverse the rudder right when you start making sternway would add a little skill element to tacking.

[Johny Reb]

There sternway rudder mechanic is wrong atm. Thats on the top of my list on things I'd like to see changed

[maturin]

But why? It's just a trivial thing to memorize that will confuse the newbs.

 

The reason I disparage this idea (besides it being something of a false feature), is that it doesn't fit with the rudder control we already have. You are not the helmsman in this game. Not even 10% of the art of steering is modeled. You control your vessel exactly like a videogame car, and that's the way it should be, because I would never want to have use two buttons on a keyboard to mimic a wheel or a tiller. In real life, it's all about force feedback, holding against the pressure, constant adjustments and reading the ship. Especially when sailing upwind or in heavy weather, steering is an art. We were all sailing a traditional spit-rigged dory last summer and none of use could get the damn thing pointed into the wind. Except my dad, who designed her, who probably did 20 degrees better than us. And he has a story about sailing a staysail schooner to Bermuda in high winds, and finding the right heading to steer by listening for a particular popping noise as the maintopmast began to strain.

 

But in the game it's all perfectly straight lines, with no input from the ship or wind. It would require a full-fledged sailing simulator do much else. We just assume that we have very good helmsmen.

 

So A and D don't control the helm, they just tell the helmsman whether you want to swing left or right.

[Barberouge]

I think people don't advocate reversing the rudder control, but reversing it when making sternway.

[admin]

rudder problems will be fixed

[Johny Reb]

Ty admin.