Tacking

[Ryan21]

hahaha. 

 

a staysail that straddles the pivot point has little effect, because the ship has a keel, which has a Center of Lateral resistance, which mostly defeats leeway and gives the ship forward motion.  You can tack with everything on the ship set, main staysails too, once they are head to weather they are neutralized, they are inert.  All the main staysails provide is extra forward thrust, that being said, if all you had set were main staysails she might make a tad more leeway depending on how much water she draws.  The chieftain draws less water and they keep there mainsail (in the middle because shes a ketch) furled sometimes to prevent excess leeway.

[Ryan21]

Put it this way, if you were sailing along with the foretopsail full, and you forcibly backed you headsail do you really think the ship is going to shoot up into the wind with the force of that backed headsail?  Nuh-Uh.  Theres no point in my arguing this further.

[Ned Loe]

Remember - Making it difficult to control will force players to quit.

 

Game must have:

 

Auto mode.

Easy mode.

Manual mode.

[Ned Loe]

Linked images:

 

 

[Ryan21]

As I said in my first post I realize that the game will have limitations, I'm looking forward to it in any case. My suggestions are just that, would be cool to see some of them implemented but the game already looks way better than existing ones:)

[Marion van Ghent]

Actually it was a captain of the Lady Washington who told me they "only set the mains'l when pointing as close to the wind as possible, or for photo opportunities." Sadly I don't remember his name; this was perhaps almost 10 years ago.

 

Obviously when to set which sails is highly context-dependent, on ship, on sea, on wind, on weather, on intentions... but the information I have seen and heard tells me the afterward gaff/lateen/boom/whatever was not that often used, but vital nonetheless for specific purposes. This is especially true on ships of more than two masts, as both the main and mizzen sails are abaft of the centre of lateral resistance and can provide significant torque when reaching.

 

But I say this with basically no sailing experience   If yours suggests otherwise I'll defer to it, though my main point stands: the aft fore-and-aft sails were NOT in constant use, and any benefit to be gained by timing how it's handled should be utterly obviated when it's not set   It's a detail that's almost always glossed over in games set in the Age of Sail, quite to my annoyance.

 

As for the handling of lateens, it's my understanding that yes, the mizzen sail would often just be set aback if coming about to its "bad tack" in a hurry. That said, it was preferable to clew up the sail, lower the foot of the yard, ease off the trusses, and pass the yard behind the mast and reset the mizzen. This was not as hard as it sounds. On xebecs and with other lateen rigs, the yard would be set outside the shrouds (rather than between them as per northern European practice), and allegedly somehow passed over the mast. I've never figured out how this was managed and the sources I've seen are frustratingly silent on the matter. Obviously I don't expect such detail to be represented in-game, but that's my understanding.

[maturin]

 

Game must have:

 

Auto mode.

Easy mode.

Manual mode.

Auto mode is the Easy mode, no?

I think there should just be a tiny auto-skipper button in the corner that can be toggled on and off at will. I know I will use when making small downwind maneuvers so I don't have to constantly eyeball the perfect angle for the yards.

 

 

hahaha. 

Please don't be obnoxious.

 

 

 

a staysail that straddles the pivot point has little effect, because the ship has a keel, which has a Center of Lateral resistance,

The Center of Lateral Resistance. Right. Because it is mounted close to that point and has very little leverage, especially compared to the foremost and aftmost sails with their large amount of leverage. And so you have acknowledged that what I was saying was factual, despite embarking on seemingly pointless rebuttals.

 

 

 

Theres no point in my arguing this further.

You've never once responded to my actual point, but acted offended and introduced something unrelated, so I agree.

 

Edit: The problem here is that we're talking about real life and videogames at the same time, and on occasion you seem to have taken my observations on prospects for videogame coding as commentary on real-world vessel performance.

[Ryan21]

Yeah it depends alot on weather, if shes broad reaching in medium to light wind the spanker will be set sheeted right out to one side, its a powerful sail and gives excellent drive when balanced right, but certainly in heavier winds it creates more and more weather helm so it's often just taken in.  Reefing it is a bit of a process and is best done before the weather hits.  The foretopmast staysail on the other hand is almost always set, in light or heavy weather, some ships had the ability to reef it into a tiny triangle just enough to keep steerage on in really heavy stuff.

[Ryan21]

I just take what I do very seriously that's all.  I realize a lot of this will be impossible to code into a game, I have no knowledge of how video games are made.

[Johny Reb]

Ryan, to get back to the original intent of the thread and contribute in some small way maybe,.... when tacking Lady, are you setting the sails as given points at a given time or are you slowly changing their angle over time?

 

I ask because it could make a difference in how the devs bring your discriptions into the game. So my observations:

 

-if they are sheeted in over time and gradually as the ship turns into the wind and out of it again than the "Q and E, or Z and C" is a good set up.

 

-if they are set positions, one for the start of the tack and one or two as you come out of the tack than I think player defined macros would be a better way of handling it.

        -A Captain would learn his ship and its performance characteristics using the QEZC mechanic. He then assigns sail position macros to a key like, 1,2,3,4.

               -Presumably there would only be two commands and a return to auto skipper at the completion of the tack making 3.

               -You could then add (if the devs want this) control of at least the spanker to gain an added advantage without that much extra complexity. Maybe even add it into the

                      macros you create. Without macros it could be complex. With them, not so much.

 

Ryan,

       How fast does Lady move? What would be the slowest it could be going and still tack? What would be the ideal speed that you would aim for, for the tack, and still keep the Brig somewhat flat for the purpose of keeping guns on the enemy and not the sky? If your max speed is say 12 knots and your ideal tacking speed was say 3 knots(1/4 of max speed) would that ratio be reasonable for other larger square rigged ships?

 

The admin asked for speeds.

 

Schooners:

   Schooners are different yet will be in the game(I believe you have one schooner already modeled) They are different. Now I base by understanding of tacking one off of limited experience with a very small homebuilt shooner(23.5' at the waterline)

These are the steps

     -release pressure on foresail - pressure on main starts turning the boat                          Q or E

     -sheet in the main - again helps to turn boat into the wind                                             Z or C

     -helms a-lee

     -through the wind the main is let out again or the boat will start weather cocking             Q or E and Z or C

      retrim the yards.

     -The boat needs to gain speed before pinching back up into the wind

 

On my boat with sufficient speed I don't need to do any of the above but its much more efficient doing that. I'm usually happy if the landlubbers listen up and move from one side of the boat to the other so we don't capsize.

 

[Ryan21]

Lady will tack doing 2.5 to 3 knots with a really competant person calling sail.  The faster your going the faster she tacks.  a good speed is about 6 or 7 knots, she will tack well under a minute.  you change the angle of the sails by bracing the yards.  The Q and E and Z and C setup could simply be yard control.  When she is directly head to weather swing the main yards over by holding down say E or Q depending on tack, and then as the ship starts to fall off on the new tack, when the main squares stop backing and start filling, hold down z or c until the fore yards are swung around, and then have a couple hotkeys or buttons set up to set the spanker.  In reality you have to clew up the foresail and mainsail before you tack also, but I didn't mention it because so many other factors were on the table, when the tacks of the main and foresail are hauled down the yards cannot be braced above them without clewing up those sails about 3/4 of the way, it's called rising tacks and sheets.  If you were slow on your mainyard bracing maybe the yards could brace slower and the whole tack would be a bit handicapped like in real life, if you hit it at the right time the yards swing merrily around.  maybe there could be a wind gauge that will give you an indication of when exactly to execute these moves.

[Ryan21]

Take a close look at the timing for yard bracing in the tacking video I posted.  You can hear on deck, Helms a lee.  Mainsail haul, and let go and haul.  watch the flag on the top of the main for wind indication.

[Ryan21]

My main focus is that the real important part that I think would benefit the game most is the correct yard bracing, because without that you cannot tack a square rigger.  So if it's possible to have both that and simplistic hot keyed head sail and spanker control that would be very cool.  But if that was a bit much, retaining the most important parts of tacking should be priority.

[Ryan21]

Maybe during tacks, the fore and mainsail could simply be clewed up automatically. and then they would reset after the completed tack?

[Brigand]

Ryan,

 

In all your enthusiasm, you are creating a lot of new replies. Above me, I count five posts all made by you. While there is nothing inherently 'wrong' with that, it may be perceived as against the etiquette by some. May I politely point to the 'edit' button (located at the bottem of each each of your posts)?

 

~Brigand

[Ryan21]

Oh, sorry, I will try to condense my posts.  A little embarrassing but I haven't been on any forum in a long time, and spend most of last year not near computers, for the life of me I can't find the delete post button?

[maturin]

There usually isn't one. Not worth it anyways as no one really minds.

[Johny Reb]

I'd see three skill levels that could be developed.

 

Beginner - autosail (should be required to start tack at a higher speed)

Intermediate - Control of Main and Foresails

Advanced - Control of Main, Fore, headsail/spanker.

 

Each one giving slightly more advantages to the Captain that knows how to sail it properly but also comes with more risk cuz screwing up is easier.

 

As another thought, if there is backward sailing allowed in game then I hope the devs properly address rudder movement vs ship movement. Moving forward.... Right rudder means head of ship turns to the right. Moving backward.... Right rudder turns head of ship to the left or accurately it turns the stern in the starboard direction.

[Ryan21]

I like your idea's Johny, I would really enjoy the game with the options like that.

[maturin]

As another thought, if there is backward sailing allowed in game then I hope the devs properly address rudder movement vs ship movement. Moving forward.... Right rudder means head of ship turns to the right. Moving backward.... Right rudder turns head of ship to the left or accurately it turns the stern in the starboard direction.

I dunno, seems sort of like a false feature.

 

Helm control is going to be basically absent from the game. It's more like we're just giving verbal instructions to the helmsman because the ships are going to steer in straight lines, whereas real life steering is a complex art in itself.

 

So the helmsman might as well know to reverse the helm in those situations. Although I grant that backwards sailing won't be a typical part of gameplay that newbs will do much of.

[Ryan21]

Really?? No helm control?  That kind of defeats the purpose of realism doesnt it?  What is it supposed to be like, empire style where you just lay out a track?

[maturin]

Really?? No helm control?  That kind of defeats the purpose of realism doesnt it?  What is it supposed to be like, empire style where you just lay out a track?

No, like POTBS.

 

The captain doesn't handle the helm itself, and the steering of a large sailing vessel is so nuanced that modeling all the quirks has never been attempted in a videogame, to my knowledge.

 

And if we were expected to handle a realistic helm (with just two keys on a keyboard and none of the force feedback or sensory cues of real life, heaven forbid!), then we would be completely unable to keep an eye on the actual battle, give orders, trim sails, fire guns, etc.

 

Edit: By no helm control, I mean that instead of directly influencing the rudders, your A and D keys really just select headings that the ships follows unerringly. There's no lee or weather helm, no easing in the gusts or sneaking up towards larger seas, none of the art of close-hauled sailing, etc. The ship follows your orders exactly.

[Ryan21]

Ive never played POTBS.  That sounds alright, Im sure i'll get used to it.  Basically the same thing I have to do as a watch officer, tell people which heading to steer and moniter the heading and the helmsman.

[Ryan21]

Is there a fire at will option in this game, where the guns will fire as the target bears, automatically?

[maturin]

Ryan, is clewing up courses mandatory? Or could a large man o war crew station hands at the sheets to control the slack and ease at the proper moment?

If we tell players that speed=fast tacking, taking in sail will be counterintuitive.