Tacking

[admin]

Lets discuss ship tacking in a computer game

What we would like to achieve in this discussion is to discuss potential to design a simple yet interesting system that will represent tacking. 

 

It should be easy to a new player - auto skipper should handle it ok (it already does)

It should allow an experienced player to gain extra performance in tacking.

 

Current system

Ship has some inertia and depending on it turning rate it can tack without losing ground. Ships can completely stop into the wind and even move back. 

You can change position of yards to ship hull (front Q E, back Z C) that will improve or worsen your turning radius depending on the position to the wind. Sails can create negative speed as well. So it should be taken into account while turning. 

 

The system works fine but if someone comes up with an interesting design decision we might test it. 

 

Goal of the discussion:

Can we create a so-called "mini game" where player can do a number of certain actions (preferably not more than 1-2) and tack faster than on Autoskipper. 

Like in racing games you can have a controlled slide by using a handbreak at the right time.

 

Preferably the description should look like this

lets assume its a frigate with maximum speed of 13 knots and good maneuverability 

1) player gains speed at 90 degrees to the wind. speed should be at least X 

2) player turns into the wind by pressing W 

3) player does X (when exactly and why)

4) player does Y (when exactly and why)

5) directly into the wind player should do Z

6) ...

7) profit

 

preferably this should be done with using 1 or 2 buttons or clicks.  yards can be turned by Q E and Z C. Sails cannot be controlled individually. 

 

 

[Ryan21]

So lets start this out by having a look at the tacking procedure of a brig.  I know and am accepting the fact that the game will have limitations, that being said, im still really excited for this game!!  So i'm just going to assume we are ignoring the headsail sheeting factor because that is probably a little too much complication. 

 

--In life as the helm is put hard a lee the headsail sheets are eased to the point where the headsails are de-powered, this is very important and can prevent the tack from being completed because the headsails are pushing the bow of the ship downwind.  We must think of the brig as having three MAIN factors contributing to its manuevering in a brig.  One is the fact that the brig will pivot on a certain point depending on which of the two masts (its main sources of thrust) are backing and which are filling.  These things make a square rigger unique, you can pivot her around by manipulating the braces on both masts provided you depower the sails at the bow and stern of the vessel ( the headsails, and spanker.)

 

-- In tacking, the brig comes exactly head to whether due to the speed she has on and inertia, at this point the fore square sails will have been aback a little while, this HELPS to push the bow down wind.  When she is exactly bow inline with wind, you brace the main squares over to the new tack as fast as possible, any wind that slips past the backing fore sails will hit the main squares ( that are on the new tack) and they will back and push the stern of the ship upwind, effectively turning her more and more onto her new course. 

 

--The instant that the main squares begin to fill with wind on the new tack ( instead of backing) the fore yards are braced around as quickly as possible, and they will fill. 

 

-- at this point the brig will begin to gather way on the new tack

 

-- only when the brig steadies on her new course will you sheet the headsails in for drive, if you sheet them in too early they can push the bow too far down wind and make for a sloppy maneuver

 

--The reason I have ommited ships and used a brig for reference up to this point is to keep things simpler.  On a ship (three masts with squares,)  The mizzen squares get braced in tandem with the main, so when the order is given "Mainsail Haul!" the mizzen and main are swung around together, with the same timing I described.

 

THE REALITY

 

As much as I would like to see bow and stern pressure with headsails and spanker, I think that may be to complicated for the game, so lets look at what could happen.

 

-the main/mizzen and fore yards are braced at the correct timing described here, or, if you are too slow or too quick the manuever either stalls the ship out and gives her stern way or slows down the manuever.

 

-Basically if its possible I would like to see the proper rotation balance that a ship or brig has with the square sails and yards being manipulated relative to the wind direction...  This doesnt need to have individual sail control, just control of each "stack" of yards as a group on each mast with realistic ship pivoting based on wind direction. 

 

Imagine a frigate with only the fore lower mast, with the fore course set.  She will have her head pushed constantly downwind and not be able to make way forward except directly down wind.

 

Now imagine the same frigate with only a mizzen topsail, she will always be pushed my the stern up into the wind and not be able to make way

 

only when the sails are balanced on each mast will a ship make headway, and tacking is just manipulating the push and pull effect that balance has on certain parts of the ship.

 

If this is possible this would give opportunities for ships to "box haul" in battle, which means you could bring her into the wind, and square the fore yards, start to go backwards, and "back her up" in either direction, essentially steering her by the fore braces with the sails backed.  This is a legitimate battle manuever that was used and is still used when we have battle reanactment sails with the other tallships.  It allows you in some instances to stop when you are next to an opposing vessel and slip behind them by going backwards.  Only a square rigger can do this

 

You could also heave to, which basically stalls the vessel out, you fill on of the masts and back the other, so if you needed to stop and take advantage of a firing position you could slow her down, stop her, fire, and fill the backing yards and be on your merry way.

 

I dont understand game design other than the fact that its difficult, but the essential thing that I think would take the realism to another level and set the standard would be this realistic sail balance, it basically leaves you with a million options, as long as the theoritical wind force pushes on the ship and sails, and the force of the sails is applied to the correct area of the ship, this would be all thats needed, and if certain players dont like it, switch on the auto pilot and she'll tack for you.

 

Also if in "auto skipper" mode, the yards still braced at the correct times, this would make everything look and feel more realistic.  Rather than in empire total war where the ship just sort of lazily goes through the eye of wind and eventually all the yards on all the masts swing over as one.  It really has a sloppy feel in empire and takes forever.  In reality tacking quickly and effectively meant life or death in some situations, and even bluff bowed merchantmen like lady could tack in less than a minute, and faster with higher wind.  In napoleonic times a tack executed without a sound and being carried out efficiently was the mark of a crack ship and real Man o wars men.  In the game this will also depend on the ships doing the speeds they do in real life.  I hate in empire how the ships seem to be doing about 40 mph, that alone makes manuevering in battle irrelavant because you have taken away one of the biggest factors of these battles, speed.  These ships weighed hundreds of tons, and were powered by wind, the fact that you can get a multi hundred ton wooden ship bowling along with control at speeds like 12-14 knots is impressive in itself.  In the Later days of merchant sail some of the fastest could do 18 knots, thats modern diesel propelled tanker speed!  Cutty sark made an atlantic crossing in 19 days once!  Now im getting off topic..

 

The point I was trying to make is when in game these ships seem to be doing car speeds, traditional battle tactics become irrelavent because back in the day, most of these ship actions were fought at much lower speeds, the battle of Trafalgar was a very light wind day, Nelsons lines were just creeping up to Villenueves at 3 or 4 knots.  Also alot of the time they fought under reduced sail to simplify manuever's when they had to be executed quick, a common set was just topsails, headsails and spanker.

 

*one small tidbit here is that setting the spanker, especially when its sheeted in tight makes her turn much faster through the tack and sometimes is necesary in light winds, it "spanks" the stern around.  Likewise when waring ship the spanker must be taken in, in most cases because it tends to push her upwind and it makes it really hard to turn her downwind for the ware.

 

Like I said, I dont know if anything im saying is even possible, but if it is I can garentee this game will be flying off the shelves. 

 

This is what box hauling looks like.

 

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/1/9/8/8/2/a1491202-6-boxhaul.jpg?d=1190483553

 

Well thats my two cents.

 

Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

This video illustrates a tack.  If you listen close you can hear the skipper on deck telling the crew "Helms a lee!" at about 1 minute, when he puts the tiller hard over.  Also listen for the crew repeating Mainsail Haul!  And Let go and haul!  Watch the flag on the main for wind direction, as well as the land astern of the ship.

 

 

Im uploading a video that will show some of the tricks we use in a battle sail like heaving to.  Ill post it as soon as it finishes.

 

[Ryan21]

Here it is, notice how Lady Backs the main, allows Chieftan to pass and then rounds up and gives her a gun.  This is modern day example of how Naval Battles were fought, in miniature.

 

[Marion van Ghent]

Aha! I was going to ask about just this topic, and am both quite pleased to see admin bringing it up -- and hear what Game Labs is already planning 

 

A big thumbs-up on this and Ryan21's suggestions. It's exactly the system I'd come up with one of the times I was considering how I'd design a sailing warfare game... so I'm quite well pleased.

 

I've actually been on one sail of the Lady Washington in Puget Sound, and experienced her tacking. And not just tacking, but turning about 180° in less than a ship length -- and without adjusting her sails. Needless to say the crew was rather confused when the helmsman just put the rudder hard over and no orders were given to haul any ropes...

 

Now, I don't expect oddities such as the Lady's trick in Naval Action; but quasi-realistic tacking and boxhauling would be more than welcome!

[Ryan21]

Heheh, ya we do that from time to time.  The "no touch 180"

[maturin]

No time to read through all Ryan21's post right now, but I skimmed it and probably agree with most of the recommendations.

 

The two most important things while tacking are speed and timing.

 

It sounds like the game already requires some speed, so that's good. (By the way, high crew skill could allow tacking at lower speeds.)

 

A possible advantage of manual control over auto-skipper could be choosing the correct time for 'mainsail haul,' and bracing the yards around on the other tack. Auto-skipper would do things 'good enough,' leaving manual captains to achieve perfect timing if they can.

 

Also, I disagree with Ryan21 on one point, which is about headsail and spanker rig balance. Based on the HMS Surprise simulator, at least, it's the fore-and-aft sails that have by far the greatest effect on rig balance. These sails can overpower the helm and cause very sharp, violent turns. If anything, it's the balance factor of the square sails that is really complex and could be left out.

 

So to tack fast you should have a button to lose sheets and haul the spanker to windward. The latter (hauling spanker to windward) could be something that auto-skipper doesn't do, meaning that manual captains will have a tighter, faster turn into the wind. The headsails and spanker could be used like this at any time, meaning that captains who know how to momentarily unbalance their rig will get big dividends of maneuverability.

 

 

To summarize:

1) Build up speed

2) Spill wind from headsails (Not furl, does loose sheets. This assumes that there is a button for disabling the power of certain sails. I know the square sails can be disabled by yard positions already.)

3) Haul spanker or mizzen sail to windward.

4) Back foremast yards at the right time.

5) Back main and mizzen yards at the right time.

 

That's a four-step sail control process/ Three steps would be automated by auto-skipper, one step is an extra advantage you get from manual control.

 

 

 

 

Sails cannot be controlled individually.

Just reassure me, please. Can sails be furled individually? Taking in topgallants or topgallants and main is crucial. None of the sailing buffs will have any fun if we can't dress our ships in canvas outfits like grown men with barbie dolls.

 

Also, are you planning on an ability to clew up sails, so we can slow down without going through the trouble of furling? I don't want to see canvas magically disappearing into the yards like in POTBS or Total War. If anything, the default 'slow down' button should clew up sails, with furling only happening after several minutes.

[Ryan21]

There is nothing complex about the balance of the square sails.  In real life, the headsails and spanker certainly affect pressure on the bow and stern, but they only have a minor fraction of the power of the square sails.  The squares are the MAIN driving and maneuvering sails on a square rigger, if you took them away entirely for instance, and set all the fore and aft, attempting to sail her like a schooner she would be very sluggish and poor in maneuvers and speed in general.  Schooners fore and aft sails are much much larger.  I have used the simulator and there are some parts of it that I feel are not quite like to reality, I know what you are talking about with the violent snappish turns, and the facts are, on a real ship, they just simply do not behave like that.  Like I stated earlier, it is important to de power the headsails when tacking at the right time but the headsails are small and do not throw the ship into violent turns.  In any weather condition the square sails are the primary force for driving and maneuvering the vessel.  You could take away all the fore and aft sails and she would sail nearly as well.  With both topsails set you can execute effectively any maneuver the ship can perform.

The simulator is great for certain things but not so great for covering all contingencies.  all that being said, the headsails and spanker are helping hands in maneuvering.

[Ryan21]

The main point is square riggers do not tack like schooners.  They have a distinct and seperate process that revolves around their largest most powerful driving sails, which are the squares.  In tacking a modern rig or fore and aft rigged schooner you essentially put your helm over and as she comes head to weather you sheet in everything, as she falls off on the new tack you ease the sheets out onto the opposite tack.  I have never heard of a square rigger being capable of tacking with just fore and aft set, because there simply is not enough sail area to generate the power needed.  I'm not trying to come off harsh here, but Ive spent over a year hauling lines and in some instances calling sail maneuvers on these vessels.  If you left out the dynamic of powering and depowering the squares we might as well be sailing fishing schooners into combat.

[BrutishVulgarian]

I don't know enough about tacking or the game to make a list  but i'd like to see failed attempts, if you don't have enough momentum and whatnot.   It would make a captain's knowledge of what his particular ship could do, important.   I would like a relationship with my ship, like Aubrey and the dear Surprise.   And of course, better gamers than me would have an idea of what enemy ships were capable of when it comes to tacking.

 

So a noob with an autopilot at least has to know he needs some speed.

[Ryan21]

I would love to see the game have all the features of headsails and spanker but I'm not sure that a 100 percent simulation is what the game developer is going for.

[Ryan21]

Yes you should be able to miss stays.  I agree completely.  Especially in light wind, yard timing should be critical to completing the tack.  Basically what happens if you call the bracing to early or too late is that it is very difficult to brace the yards, you are fighting the wind.  If for instance you braced the fore way to early and before the main you might miss stays because you dont have the huge power of that sail backing and pushing the head of the ship through.  If the mate calls his bracing exactly right the yards should swing around with relative ease, if he's a second or two too late its like pulling teeth, and in heavy weather its very very difficult.  Not completing a tack in heavy weather could have some nasty consequences.

[Ryan21]

This discussion could get 9 kinds of complicated fast.  Basically its going to end up being the developers call on the level of things they want to incorporate.  These ships are my life, so naturally I get a bit zealous haha.

[Ryan21]

Is there any in game footage of the current tacking scheme yet?  Or is that stuff going to be kept under wraps?

[Brigand]

Whatever level of simulation, manual control vs auto-skipper is going to be implemented, I would very much like to ask for one thing:

 

Please, animate the sails to act as they would in the reality when performing the sailing manoeuvres.

 

Whatever the design decision is made, for example, to simply steer the ship by pressing 'left' and 'right' or whatever other level of sailing control is decided upon, please do make the sails go through all the steps that you would see in reality. Animate the fore square sails being aback for a little while, the yards swinging around at the correct moment, spanker being eased and sheeted in tight when appropriate.

If at all possible, have different wind speeds result in a different set of sail being set and used in manoeuvring.

 

When playing the game, you would see those animations time and again. If they are 'realistic' looking, it would help immersion a lot. It would also set this game apart from every other Age of Sail game I know of; it would create the game all future games would be compared against.

 

Please?

 

Brigand

 

[maturin]

Ryan21:

I know that the fore-and-aft sails have a very secondary level of importance. And I know that you can manage the ship without them. I wasn't actually talking about driving power at all, just what the Surprise sim calls rotational thrust. In that game it seems like the headsails and spanker are primarily what determine whether you carry lee or weather helm (Assuming square sails are actually set on all masts.). This makes intuitive sense to me because the fore-and-aft sails are used at squarer angles to the wind when reaching or beating, have more leverage because of their placement and thus convert a larger portion of their thrust into rotational forces, rather than driving the ship. If you think this is incorrect, and that a close-hauled fore topsail will produce more lee helm than a large sheeted-in jib, I would be very interested in hearing about it.

You misunderstand me in one other element. I recommend modeling rig balance for headsails and spanker not for the sake of simulation, but for gameplay. By manipulating headsails, we can use realistic maneuvers to improve turn rate. I don't want full physical simulation, just something like this:

Sailing with jib and no spanker: +5 turn rate to leeward and -5 to windward. And vice-versa. Note that this would require controlling the sheets for these sails just as we rotate square yards with brace controls.

This will create more interesting gameplay, and the rig balance effects of headsails and mizzen sails are intuitive because these sails are positioned at either end of the vessel. The square sails are less easily comprehensible on a full-rigged ship because the main and mizzen are so close to the center of gravity and pivot, which in itself is a mobile and variable point. Furthermore, no one clews up the foresail to tack, so when coding a rig balance system for square sails you would have to prevent abuse like that. In short, rig balance for head and mizzen sails sails is more intuitive and easy to implement and use in normal gameplay. After all, players are going to run around with all three topsails set 99% of the time, so the balance of those sails can be assumed to take care of itself. However, I would love to see penalties for carrying all your square sail forward or aft, as this would come into play when dismasted.

The main point is that we should be able to effect bonuses and penalties to turn rate by changing rig balance. But there should not be a situation like in the HMS Surprise sim where the ship barely answers the helm if you don't set everything just right.

And +5000 to missing stays and especially box-hauling. Wearing ship should be a fairly pain-free process, as I understand it.

Lastly, do we all agree that a separate minigame is not needed for tacking?

[maturin]

Whatever the design decision is made, for example, to simply steer the ship by pressing 'left' and 'right' or whatever other level of sailing control is decided upon, please do make the sails go through all the steps that you would see in reality. Animate the fore square sails being aback for a little while, the yards swinging around at the correct moment, spanker being eased and sheeted in tight when appropriate.

If at all possible, have different wind speeds result in a different set of sail being set and used in manoeuvring.

 

And I know that a large number of us would be thrilled to provide resources, suggestions and feedback for the needed series of animations at every stage of development.

 

POTBS had half-decent animations for filled sails. If you added luffing and backing animations of that sort, you would already be well on your way to an excellent result.

 

Edit: Also, that tacking video is beyond fantastic! I've been looking for a clip like that for weeks and it just kills me that they aren't to be had. It looks like no one even had to touch the mainsail braces, which I suppose is a sign of good timing.

[Ryan21]

The headsails and spanker do provide more weather and lee helm.  However I still maintain that the main forces that allow the ship to maneuver are the squares, if you simple took away the force that the squares provide to each sector of the vessel, like I said before she wouldn't maneuver worth anything.  I really dont see anything hard about the fact that the fore stack pushes the head around and the main and mizzen push the stern.  If the balance "took care of itself" that would mean everything ive said in this regard would be implemented.

[Marion van Ghent]

I recommend modeling rig balance for headsails and spanker not for the sake of simulation, but for gameplay. By manipulating headsails, we can use realistic maneuvers to improve turn rate. I don't want full physical simulation, just something like this:

Sailing with jib and no spanker: +5 turn rate to leeward and -5 to windward. And vice-versa. Note that this would require controlling the sheets for these sails just as we rotate square yards with brace controls.

I quite like the gist of what you're saying, Maturin -- though forgive me for now throwing a few minor monkey wrenches into things   A.K.A. "The Devil Is In The Details."

 

1. It's important to remember that square riggers -- even brigs and snows -- only rarely set their fore-and-aft sails, particularly astern. Their main use was when pointing as close as possible to the wind for any significant stretch. Otherwise they tended to be furled and out of the way, particularly on full-rigged ships. So while I very much like the spirit of your suggestion, I need to point out the actuality of it would be a convenient fiction or available only under special circumstances (either of which I'm fine with).

 

2. Square riggers are likely not to be the only kind of rig encountered in-game -- and even they, at least in older models, also had lateen sails. These are a different beast and worthy of discussion on their own, but I'll point out their handling and animation can get complex, what with (in some cases in some instances) hauling the yard about the mast to re-set on a different tack. (Luckily junk rigs are, from my understanding, a bit easier... but yet another beast to keep in mind!)

 

3. Also, not all headsails are triangular. The spritsail clung to functionality even as jibs and stays were taking over. And then you have that curious and awkward beast, the spritsail topsail...   

 

All this is mainly to keep the devs on their toes and thinking about all the possibilities, especially as they seem to want to open up both the historic range of the game eventually as well as its geographical range. 

 

The main point is that we should be able to effect bonuses and penalties to turn rate by changing rig balance. But there should not be a situation like in the HMS Surprise sim where the ship barely answers the helm if you don't set everything just right.

And +5000 to missing stays and especially box-hauling. Wearing ship should be a fairly pain-free process, as I understand it.

Lastly, do we all agree that a separate minigame is not needed for tacking?

Yes, yes, and yes!

[Ryan21]

It doesnt matter how close they are to the center of pivot, as long as they are ABAFT it, then she will be pushed by the stern, and as long as the fore is forward of it she will be pushed by the bow.  I agree that I would like to see some headsail and spanker action, but the basic basic dynamics of the ship pivoting around that point realistically are my primary aim.  Because when you step on board a square rigger for the first time this dynamic is one of the first things you learn about sail theory.  Like I said, take all the squares away and try tacking, I have never heard if it being done, let alone succeeding.  Weather and lee helm are good features but I worry that they may be made more potent than they should be.  From the surprise simulator I have seen the headsails and spanker throwing the ship around in a sort of unrealistic way in certain scenarios.  In life if you know how to sheet your spanker and headsails right and balance the rig out, in any kind of moderate to light wind the weather helm is pretty easy to deal with, it doesnt require three people on the tiller to keep her pointed the right way, the squares make it so that she is cruising along with relatively even balance, the fore top staysail is very very small and affects things in a minor way, you dont need to set the spanker just because you have the foretopmast staysail set, she tracks just fine.  The spanker obviously has alot more area but is still quite manageable if everything is correct, in very heavy wind with close reefed topsails you aren't going to have the spanker set full so its sail area is greatly reduced, and if the weather helm proves too much you simply take it in.

[maturin]

It's important to remember that square riggers -- even brigs and snows -- only rarely set their fore-and-aft sails, particularly astern.

Wouldn't it be better say 'rarely for downwind sailing?'

If any square rigger would furl the headsails and spanker when reaching (which, on balance, is going to be an extremely common point of sail), then that is huge news to me. If the wind is on the beam, the mizzen and headsails are very easy to manage and not blanketing anything at all. No one has to go aloft or raise heavy yards... it's free knots.

 

It is true that I have been thinking about rig balance and maneuverability only as regards tacking and performance on the wind. Maybe it would be good to simplify downwind sailing by excluding rig balance from the equation. With downwind sailing, we can assume that a square rigger has plenty of speed and momentum and will turn just fine in any situation. After all, the devs want to rewards players who are skilled at tacking, while making the game still playable with auto-skipper.

 

 

 

lateen sails. These are a different beast and worthy of discussion on their own, but I'll point out their handling and animation can get complex, what with (in some cases in some instances) hauling the yard about the mast to re-set on a different tack.

I hear you. Not that I know, but I would guess that the large lanteen mizzen sails would just hang out on the 'bad tack' half the time. Must have been a huge job to shift a yard that large, and maybe not quite worth it, since the lanteen isn't so great upwind anyways. The principles of rig balance should be the same with lanteens, though, right?

 

 

 

The spritsail clung to functionality even as jibs and stays were taking over. And then you have that curious and awkward beast, the spritsail topsail.

Those sails could be rendered as vestigial parts of the foremast yards, no? Just make the spritsail topsail fall overboard every other week.

 

The difficulty posed by different rigs has occurred to me, especially in terms of the extra animations needed. I suppose I wouldn't be too crushed if the finer sailing mechanics of luggers and lanteeners was rendered with POTBS quality.

 

 

 

It doesnt matter how close they are to the center of pivot, as long as they are ABAFT it,

It absolutely matters. You can't escape leverage. The foresails are just in a superior position for exerting force on the ship, so far as rotation goes. And then you've got braced yards and staysails that actually straddle the center of pivot and oh god I need a degree in something to know what happens then.

 

That's why I want to simplify.

[Ryan21]

..... really..  you dont need a degree.  Go be a deckhand on Lady Washington for two weeks, read seamanship in the age of sail.  Then come back and tell me that same statement.  This is why I love forums...  Its not as complicated as your making it out to be, the center of rotation is between the main and fore, anything abaft the fore serves as stern rotation.  I iterate again, read seamanship in the age of sail by Harland, from first hand sailing experience I can tell you this book is as accurate as it gets.

 

I would say rarely sets for and aft sails is also a fallacy.  We set them all the time, they arent the main "power" sails but they add to thrust, and on a broad reach, a square riggers fastest point of sail, everything can draw, so in light wind you set everything.  Here is one for you, we are broad reaching with full sail, making 6-7 knots in very light wind.  Going straight as an arrow.  Theres no black magic here, shes just doing her thing.  The main and fore act 50/50 to pivot the ship.

 

[Ned Loe]

7 angles should be enough I think. At each angle player gets a little message next a wind/speed meter. Could be a little square that changes colors for each angle type.

 

Example:

 

Each angle (color square), can hold a % of a base ship speed.

 

80% - angle 1

70% - angle 2

60% - angle 3

50% - angle 4

40% - angle 5

30% - angle 6

20% - angle 7

 

So, if a player is at angle 1, green square color appears, (message says -press an assigned key once) to make a best possible tack/turn etc.

if a player is at angle 7, red square color appears, (message says - press and hold assigned key for 5 sec.)

 

Simply each angle has different key action assigned.

 

I would only put 2-4 angles.

 

Linked images under this post.

[Ryan21]

I like the angles idea!

[maturin]

Its not as complicated as your making it out to be, the center of rotation is between the main and fore, anything abaft the fore serves as stern rotation.

You're only talking about the direction of forces, whereas I am talking about the direction and strength of forces. Read my posts carefully and you'll see that. It is all VERY complicated to model in a videogame, even if it's not that complicated to handle in real life.

 

I'm completely on board with your explanations. But the fact remains that a sheeted-in headsail exerts additional force because of the leverage it has over the hull, due to distance from the point of pivot (and a hundred other factors and equations of standard physics). No sailor alive is going to pull out pen and paper and make a mathematical estimate as to the relative strengths here... but the videogame coder has to do ALL the math.

 

And can you answer the question of how a staysail affects rig balance when it physically straddles the point of pivot? (I suspect it's not really relevant because of the low leverage, I'm just pointing out that the simplicity really goes away.)

[Ned Loe]

Something like this: