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Real Square rigger sailing


Ryan21

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I sail square rigged sail training vessels for a living.  Having said that, I think one of the most important things is realistic wind and heavy weather sailing.  The vision of a square rigger with every sail including royals and studdingsails set in a gale of wind is not only unrealistic, it makes these ships seem two dimensional.  I enjoy playing empire total war, that being said, I would enjoy it alot more if in a gale of wind I was forced to close reef my topsails or else my higher yards and mast sections would break and have to be repaired, also a realistic sea height and behaviour with larger and larger inline swells forcing you to take in sail, and impeding your ability to sail close hualed and eventually in storm force winds to no longer make any headway and be forced to scud or heave to until the system passes.  My youtube page has lots of sailing footage from the two brigs I have served on.  www.youtube.com/user/tallshipspacific

That being said it would make this game a hundred times better if when you went to "tack" or Ware ship, the yards actually turned at the right times in the right order.

for instance when tacking a ship as the helm is put hard to leeward and the ship begins to turn up into the wind, the main and foresails are clewed up to allow the upper yards to swing around, and the headsail sheets are eased, spilling the wind and releiving downwind pressure on the bow.  This allows her to come all the way through irons, when the ship is exactly head to weather the order is given "mainsail haul" and the main and mizzen yards are braced simultaneously onto the new tack.  The ship begins to fall off the wind with the fore stack aback and when the main squares begin to fill with wind on the new tack the order "let go and haul is given" which braces the fore yards up on the new tack.  As the ship starts making headway and steadies on her new tack the headsail sheets are sheeted for drive.  You can set the spanker too in light winds and sheet it amidships to help push her into the eye of the wind, if it wasnt set already. 

Also when setting sqaure sail it would be neat to see the proper procedure of sheeting the sails home and then the yard being hauled up to stretch the sail out, as in real life the yards do not remain hauled up, they rest on the mast caps.  and sail setting in the correct order from the topsail to the topgallant and up, and then last the fore and mainsail, rather than just having all the squares magically sheet home at the same time.

As i'm a lifer in the tallships industry of course I would like to see a very accurate simulator but I realize this would bore alot of people.  But I do beleive exxagerating speeds these ships travelled should not be done in any future game, on a real square rigger being pushed by a 30 knot breeze, 10-12 knots feels very very fast.

 Also some good bow wave animations would be great, as your speed increases in heavy weather throwing out a large bow wave and sending spray and foam down the sides would make it magnificient.

Ryan

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Hello all, my name is Ryan.  I spent most of last year and a portion of the year before sailing on square rigged vessels, in many different situations, locales, and wind conditions.  My youtube page is here for everyones enjoyment.  I am trying to spread the word that tall-ship sailing is actually something you can do in this day and age!  My career goal is to be a square rigger captain before 30, I will be eligible for my 150 ton mates licence at the end of this year so my goals are reasonable.

 

Ryan

 

youtube.com/user/tallshipspacific

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Good read. I never sailed square rigged ships but I came to read about it. I've found this text interesting and quite fun: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/luce/ "Haul well taut! LET GO AND HAUL! To the man at the wheel, Right the helm!"

 

I'd ask a couple questions though (english isn't my language). What means "sheeting the sails home" ? Are all the yards hauled up to stretch the sails out, or only some of them ?

 

Also, did you apply to the focus testing ? ( http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/392-focus-testing/ ) If you got some time, your advices could help there.

 

There will be both auto-skipper and more hardcore rigging management. The first problem I'd see, is that in auto-skipper the game only detects the point of sail, not the anticipated maneuver. Maybe by keeping track of the ship rotation and rudder angle, something could be worked out.

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ok, so on a square rigger of the time period from the 1700's-early 1800's, the lower yards on all three masts, the Crojack on the Mizzen, the Mainyard on the main, and the Foreyard on the fore were fixed at the same height by a sling.  the upper yards, topsail, topgallant, royal, and skysail were yards that could be hauled up from the mast cap they partially rested on to nearly the top of each of there mast sections.

 

In order to set a topsail for instance, the men would lay aloft, cast off the gaskets (lashings) that secured the sail in a tightly furled condition, let the slack sail fall and climb back down to deck, wherapon the sail would be "sheeted home" The bottom corners of a square sail are called clews and the lines attached to them are called sheets.  So by hauling the sheets, the bottom corners of the square sail would be hauled down to blocks on the yard below them and the lines made fast.  The next step would be to haul the line called the Halyard, this line hauls the yard into it's upward position, stretching the sail out.  This also allows the topgallant to be set above the topsail in a proper manner, you cannot sheet the topgallant home when the topsail yard isn't raised, and so it is with each sail further up.

 

I did leave out one very important thing.  There are lines called clews and bunts, and reefs, these sets of line are used to haul the sail partially back up to the yard in preperation for proper furling, THESE LINES MUST BE CAST OFF and tended while the sail is being sheeted home and while the halyard is being hauled, if not you wont be able to set the sail.  Also the braces are lines used to trim the yard around depending on the vessels tack, these must be tended while the halyard is being hauled.

 

Sailing ships are a complex system of push and pull, while some lines are hauled, others must be eased.  I will link a video that will show the setting of Lady Washingtons main topsail and topgallant from aloft, note the sails have already been "let fall" that is to mean we had layed aloft and taken the gaskets off and coiled them neatly in place so the sail is free to set.



Any more questions just let me know, this is my passion and I'm working hard to make it my career!
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Thanks for the answers. It takes me some time to read through this kind of text but I already knew some vocabulary (recreational sailing from time to time). The videos also help a lot.

 

The game won't be a very accurate simulator maybe, but the procedures are interesting for the complex management mode.

 

Nice hat, good flag :)

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Welcome to the boards Ryan21, very nice info.

 

The Lady Washington is a very interesting brig, too bad the online information is limited. I would love to hear more about how to sail her in different winds, how to get under sail in various conditions, etc. (I'm one of those people who's interested in all the little obscure details :))

 

Cheers,

Brigand

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Thanks for the welcome, anything specific you want to know just ask.  She is a replica of the Lady Washington that started life as a colonial trading vessel on the east coast in the 1770's and later became the first american flagged vessel to round cape horn and explore the pacific coast.  Her goal was to open up trade with China for the newly independant USA, she made a number of circumnavigations successfully.  The replica was built in Grays Harbour Washington in the late 1980's and as far as the rig and most of the vessel goes she is very very accurate.

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Woop, loving the latest turn of this thread! The only brigs I've spent much time on (c. 7k miles under sail on and off over about 4 years) had a lovely lovely rig, but not well set up at all...sailing a square that carries weather helm without spanker is a bit stressful! So they went pretty well to the wind, better than the (only, far from exhaustive) couple of full riggers I've been on. I'd pick a brig over brigantine every day for windward work...but the guys on the brigantine Tres Hombres have some very impressive stories about how well she performs on the wind. Would love to hear some less anecdotal info.

Baggy

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I have also read that in a few different places.  My knowledge comes from serving on two different brigs, and reading seamanship in the age of sail and other publications.  Lady Washington is about as weatherly as the "square rigger standard" for those days as is commonly publicized, she will sail about 65 to 70 degrees close hauled, and her speed will be hampered a fair bit compared to the same wind levels on a beam or broad reach.  The main physical factors affecting how well a square rigger sails to windward are how sharp the yards can be braced, which differ's ship to ship, and how fine the entry of her bow is for taking a head sea.  Lady was a merchantman and has a very round bow, therefore she sails pretty well close hauled in a mild to moderate sea state, but if there is a heavy head sea her ability to sail to windward is dramatically reduced.  Niagara however, can brace her yards much much sharper than Lady due to larger and different rigging geometry, and she is much longer on the waterline with a very very fine clipper bow.  Niagara's capability to sail to windward at speed is head and shoulders above Lady Washington.  I recall a day sailing on lake Erie, single reef in the topsails, I was at the tiller steering full and by (as close as she would lie to the wind without luffing,) it was blowing about 20 knots and I was stunned, Niagara was charging along at over 9 knots right up against the wind, the anemometer read 55 degrees, and sometimes dipped a degree or two lower, her clipper bow sliced through head sea's with ease.  Steering Niagara with a decent wind is one of my most treasured memories.  I love both brigs equally, but for close hauled sailing capacity Niagara has, sharper traverse of yards, longer waterline length contributing to higher hull speed, and a clipper bow to cut through head seas.

 

Hope this answers your question.

Here is Niagara tearing along right up against the wind.
She does have disadvantages..  She was built quickly and designed for one decisive battle, the battle of lake Erie.  She was never designed as an ocean going warship and has significantly lower freeboard than Lady, which means she will reach deck edge immersion and downflood sooner, she was also built with a very lofty rig, lots of sail area for her hull design, the result is an extremely powerful low and moderate wind performer, able to ride out heavy weather on the lakes, but never designed to stand up to ocean sea states. 

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If this game has decent ship models, which it certainly looks like it does.  And incorporates a fair bit of the manueverability and yard management and weather related damage I will be happy.  It would be very cool to be able to execute real square rigger manuevers like tacking, waring and boxhauling through rudder and yard positions and sail set for the conditions.

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Any more questions just let me know, this is my passion and I'm working hard to make it my career!

What sort of bosun's magic is that?!   Where is the sailors?  Nevermind, I should read before I type.    

Another question, to be answered here...http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16-sail-control/

Are those telltales I see on the sails and do they help sailing?

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The video was started after we loosed out the sails.  Those are not tell tales, they are reef nettles.  In heavy weather the topsails have two reefing positions to make them smaller, you can carry close reefed topsails into 40-45 knots of wind, but a full topsail would simply blow out or overstress the mast at that wind speed and above.  Essentially you have reef tackles that haul the sail up to reefing position on the outside edges, the two new top corner lashings are made on the yardarms, and the excess sail all along the top gets rolled up tight and the reef nettles get tied around it to keep it controlled.  In simple terms you make the sail smaller for higher winds.  With the single reef in you still haul the halyard to raise the yard a little but not as much, with double reef you simply sheet the sail home and leave the yard in its lowest position.  This does two things, it reduces windage on the sail and it decreases the ships center of gravity by keeping the 600 pound yards a little lower, making her easier to handle in the ugly stuff.

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Generally on most ships the Topsails, Foresail, Mainsail, spanker, and certain lower staysails can be reefed, everything above the topsails would be superflous to have reefing because you take in your royals and topgallants at a relatively low windspeed and the topgallant and royal mast sections are smaller and do not bear as much strain.  On Lady its good practice to take in the Royals at about 15 knots, topgallants and jib at around 18-20, first reef in the topsails at about 30-35, and any higher than 35 knots sustained double reef topsails and reefed foresail.  The lower sails can bear much more strain because of their mast sections being thicker and the center of gravity is lower.  So forget about all those paintings of tall ships that have 35 sails set in a storm, its simply not real.  To me a square rigger running under nothing but reefed topsails in a gale, charging along at 13-14 knots and throwing out a 15 foot bow wave with spray flying aft to the quarterdeck is much much more attractive than any of these fantasy paintings hahaha.

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The auto-skipper should provide a damage-safe sail area, as the hardcore mode would give more speed at the cost of possible damage. Swell, gusts, condition of the vessel would be factors to be taken into account to avoid damage.

 

Also I found this text well written and interesting: http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol13/tnm_13_4_29-39.pdf . The close hauled numbers confirm yours: 67.5° at best for square rigged ships. Also it's given 3° of leeway at best (up to 12° depending on the conditions). The best frigates could tack in their own lenght, and wear in four times'. Would you confim those numbers ?

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/116121315@N07/12257670106/

This is how much smaller Ladies foretopsail is when its double reefed.  We did this in Oxnard California before heading to Long Beach in a 45-55 knot gale.

Did you do it at anchor? It looks so... neat. I would have guessed it was just the lower yard of a split topsail and there was no bundle of canvas stuffed up against the yard at all.

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Yes those sound about right, I dont have a degree in this stuff but I did experience it first hand every day for about 9 months if you include the schooner I was on.  What we considered to be a good tack as crew was when we tacked without losing any ground, even in light wind.  Lady Washington always impressed me with her ability to tack in very little wind, you just have to know what your doing.  So yes tacking in your own length is reasonable for some vessels.  Niagara tacked especially quickly, like lightening, I'm pretty sure she was tacking in her own length most of the time.  It would be nice to have a birds eye view of tacking.  I'm uploading a video of Lady tacking from the perspective of the foremast looking back.  One time in very light wind, I mean maybe 3-7 knots I was acting sail master and I put her through a tack that took about 5 minutes but she still came through, and then the wind got even lighter and I was forced to ware, the ware took about 10 minutes to complete.

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No we dont do it at anchor, it is for when you are sailing in heavy weather.  sometimes when we are anchored you will set a reefed spanker thats sheeting right amidships to act as a weather vane and keep the ship head to weather so she is pulling the correct way on her anchor.

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