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Snoopy

There will never be fair fights in OW - unless ?

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But to expect fair fights the majority of thr time may be unrealistic.

 

My ideal would be that all fights start out unfair but swift action and participation on the part of the outnumbered side would eventually "stem the tide" over the course of a night or several nights worth of battles.  Sort of goes back to the old school DAOC (and all the other games that followed) RvR mechanics where you give ground but in doing so put your enemy at an ever increasing disadvantage.

 

I think there are probably ways to build something like that into the game but I don't know how realistic (as in realism) they'd end up being.  And maybe this game doesn't need that sort of thing, but without some form of comeback mechanic, pvp often devolves into a winning begets winning and losing begets losing dynamic.  Which is actually quite realistic but not so much fun if you're the loser...

 

Full disclosure, i'm in a large well organized fleet so I'm sure we'll have our share in the win column.  I'm mainly arguing on behalf of my bros in no/small/unorganized fleets/nations.  If the game doesn't give them some way to "get back on their feet" when they are getting rolled, then I'm afraid they'll either give up or reroll (where rerolling is a double whammy to the pop balance issue).

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Totaly agree with ramjb,

 

Dont forget that if your a blocked  in a port due to mutch more ennemis out side you can call for help in Na tchat and dont forget that player in front a port if no one to fight since 30 minutes it also boring.

try to make only fair fight will kill the sandbox side of the game. Out number ok just flee and find another areas. 

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One thing thats been overlooked,and thats the Map.Once other Map Areas open(hopefully they will be seamless in continuity)this will almost dissapear.Will the Devs reduce the number of AI while we have the current Map and the next load of OW Invites?I was just wondering if it might get a bit overpopulated.

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if you start to ask the game for fair fight after you will love to have fair wind ect ... 

 

if you are in hot zone you just have to be carfefull and if not just too be in a fast ship this is not to complicated !!!?  however why not only 1v1 in 1rates? 

just need to implement a duel mechanique in open sea and for the rest open your eyes.

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I think since I started OW I have only had 3 fair fights. Most of the time 2 Brigs and a cutter or A Cutter and a snow or just a brig and a Lynx and a Priv. These seem to be the normal 3-1,2-1 or had as many as 4-1 larger ships try to sink my lone basic Lynx. Always seems to be the Brits nation 99% of the time.  

Actually funny had the same Brig in 2 different battles  try to gank me with his buddy and same outcome he teleported with 20% sails left in both instances seems he didn't learn from the first battle a Lynx can defend itself with 6 longs and upgrades and maybe trying to gang up for an easy kill isn't so easy and certain in the outcome all the time. Lol Now I just ask him at the start if he wants to surrender now and save us both time.

 

Has to be a way if the start of a battle  is 2 similar ships then his buddies cant pop in and make it 4-1 or there should be a way to see types and numbers in a battle. Or just have the restraint to let the equals fight it out if it is Lynx on Lynx and not start to pound me with your snow just because I managed to hurt your buddy that initiated the battle.

Edited by Dragonfire

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The only times you get a fair fight is when your opponent underestimates you. 

 

In every other situation you dont get a fight at all. It's just cat and mouse all the time. 

 

Yes skirmish mode is very much needed to keep the hardcore ppl in the game. 

 

Farming is boring, running is boring, searching is boring. 

 

And about the 25ppl limit: there is so many ways to abuse that, it's not even funny. 

 

We will get fair fights if ppl decide to make them. Otherwise they wont happen. Unless the benefits from fighting and loosing are higher than evading the fight. 

Let's count this real quick with just rough numbers: 6 modules = 600k trinc = 120k  everything divided by 5=120k  Finding a good trinc and all golden modules takes something like 2 weeks (very vague estimation). So... loosing a dura on a trinc costs about 120k + 3 days of playing. If you would make the benefits from loosing a pvp fight higher than that, you would get ppl to fight pvp even if unfavored. But then again, this is so heavily exploitable and would kill all kinds of economy. So ... any other ideas?

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 ...When people see that you get more xp from shooting bigger ships and start treating vessels as consumables they will fight a lot more, and run less...

 

I so hope you're right, and get it right, eventually.

 

Right now, though... Trade one durability for, what? 100 more XP?

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Well its getting worse out there now just graped a trader Brig to the point of boarding it and just as I was about to pull and board a Cerb jumps into the game and starts towards me as I was boarding.  Just managed to win the boarding (I'm in a basic Lynx) and capture it as soon as I capture it he starts shooting.

 

Trader Brig is unarmed so I try to recapture the Lynx and get away. Nope that doesn't stop him he keeps shooting now at the Lynx.I called him a few names for doing this and pointed out I was in a Lynx but he basically said so what and kept shooting.

Managed to keep him occupied typing in text to get back to the Brig and re board as my Lynx was too damaged and tried to sail it.

 

He then started to pound the unarmed Brig till he sank it. This is getting out of hand not sure what to do as just had 6 French port players try to kill my Lynx.

 

6 against 1 Lynx not even worth leaving port anymore making the game unenjoyable and unplayable for players just starting over again after loosing what I managed to get in a week  yesterday in a disconnect then finally get back to the battle and either I was sunk or boarded and reset to a port I didn't have a berthing in.

 

 

Guess im just pissed gonna take another week to get it back again and some idiot out hunting Lynx and unarmed ships with his Cerb

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lol where the hell are you sailing again? Lesser Antilles?  sounds like there's always some action going on down there :)

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Pretty much been from base to Cuba and base to South America and the guys around Dominican Republic have zero sence of humour when a Basic Lynx pounds 2 Brigs they take offence lol. Or if one even sails in their territory want action go around there all you can handle.

Edited by Dragonfire

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Why does everyone want balance and fair? What ever happened to being proud of winning an unbalanced fight and seeing it as a good thing, rather than a reason to rage quit?

 

Do you have any idea how often I've won in Sea Trials against a superior team? More times than I can count, and that's because tactics, strategic thinking, and witty plays can vastly change the course of a fight.

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you cant compare sea trials balance to open world. its all about grind(ship tier), gank and zerg. some players even started to arrange duels to have at least some decent fights.

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Open world combat is not an arena game with a match making system, therefore don't expect anything close to even PVP battles unless you are extremely lucky.

 

The game may have large scale matches in later developments that provide a frame for nations to put forth equally large fleets for strategic power struggles but as yet we have no confirme knowledge of such that I'm aware of.  The games pvp opportunity  is currently EVE with no policed zone to hide in.

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The only times you get a fair fight is when your opponent underestimates you. 

 

In every other situation you dont get a fight at all. It's just cat and mouse all the time. 

 

Yes skirmish mode is very much needed to keep the hardcore ppl in the game. 

 

Farming is boring, running is boring, searching is boring. 

 

And about the 25ppl limit: there is so many ways to abuse that, it's not even funny. 

 

We will get fair fights if ppl decide to make them. Otherwise they wont happen. Unless the benefits from fighting and loosing are higher than evading the fight. 

Let's count this real quick with just rough numbers: 6 modules = 600k trinc = 120k  everything divided by 5=120k  Finding a good trinc and all golden modules takes something like 2 weeks (very vague estimation). So... loosing a dura on a trinc costs about 120k + 3 days of playing. If you would make the benefits from loosing a pvp fight higher than that, you would get ppl to fight pvp even if unfavored. But then again, this is so heavily exploitable and would kill all kinds of economy. So ... any other ideas?

 

i totaly agree with that but for me the main probleme of all your number is the 3 days of farming 

 

Module need to be craft buy player first and also loot a littel bite.

 we need to see how dev will driven the economie  hope they dont make this game pay to win with the premium ship and other thing.

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Reason some want a bit of fairness is if you play for a small nation then it becomes a problem.

 

I am Canadian but I play for Sweden, Why < well because they are a massive underdog in this game.

There is only one home port  Gustavia.

What happens there...Large fleets like to camp out right on the port USA< FRANCE< GREAT BRITION

 

Ok so how are you going to test a game or for that matter play it when you keep getting blown out of the water by 6 ships just sitting there waiting for anyone to come out. Yes we are testing but it gets frustrating to the point of getting pissed off tremendously you cant leave the port or return to fix damage if you cant enter it 70% of the time .

 

Only thing I sail anymore is the basic Lynx because I know I bring out anything bigger 3 snows a Cerb and a cutter are going to jump me so what's the use.

How much usefull data is collected when 3 cutters and 2 Lynx jump one lone Lynx time after time or a Snow and a Cerb with 2 cutters constantly.

 

Go change nations then? Why, there is only one Sweden Island and port I guess they need all the help they can get. Would like to see a bigger exclusion Zone around that one port to limit camping right at the port blockading it so much. Need to jump a little basic Lynx with 6 ships then all should be turned to pirates might stop the stupidity a bit. 4 Bells and 2 Cerbs to kill a cutter or Brig makes it impossible to start out unless you sail with a fleet all the time so individual data streams sailing single ships will be lacking ? 

 

Last 3 days ganking has been at an all time high at least around Gustavia.

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You know you can set up an outpost in any neutral port, right?

 

For release, I think they need to move some starting ports so that there is not a cluster in the upper antilles.  E.g.:

 

Great Britain - Port Royal

Spain - Havana

Verenigde Provinciën - Aruba or Curacao

 

That still leaves Denmark-Norway and Sweden fairly close together, but they are also likely to be the lowest pop nations.

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Yea that's the reason I have other ports (Just about said which ones ooops) BUT they cost gold and if your just starting out and not with a big nation that has big fleets how are you going to get the ridiculous amounts of gold needed to open those ports ? Takes along time to find minor upgrades you can afford just to survive and try to capture Traders to be able to open ports . How you going to upgrade you keep getting jumped in you little Lynx or Cutter by 6 ships ?

 

Your in a little ship maybe you will get 500- 600 gold in a battle , about all I get in my Lynx. So a port cost you what 8000 or so. Do the math, just to open 1 neutral port could take you a long time if you keep getting ganked by 4-6 ships that kill you quick. Unless you do damage you might get 40-60 gold probably less.

Try to get a decent upgrade 20,000- 70,000 gold not going to happen I sailed the whole map checking every neutral port I could find to get the upgrades I have on my Lynx. Got jumped by Cerbs,Snows, Brigs and only 1% of the time it ever was ship on ship. Yea I can outrun and out maneuver  them but day after day that gets old fast.

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You don't need any gear to make enough money for first outpost.  Sail away from Gustavia, capture 3-5 trader brigs or trader snows, teleport back to Gustavia to sell them, then sail away one last time and open your outpost wherever you want.  If during those two times you have to sail away from Gustavia someone catches you that you can't escape, immediately surrender.  You lose nothing and they get squat.

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Reason some want a bit of fairness is if you play for a small nation then it becomes a problem.

 

I am Canadian but I play for Sweden, Why < well because they are a massive underdog in this game.

 

 

Just pointing this out and this isn't really criticizing.

 

People who want to play an underdog should expect a harder time.  If the battle rules made things more fair then there would be no underdogs because everyone would have the near the same opportunities and the difference between nations would be negligible. 

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Ill just reply to both of the last 2 posts here.

 

Yes you can sail away and go catch Traders but like I said you can't because for some reason everyone like to surround your home port and you have no freedom to go do that , your constantly attacked soon as your visible and done being protected. So that suggestion is not going to work. Not sure why with all the other nations the British and the USA feel the need to camp there we are only one post the Spanish , British , have way more ports of opportunity to go bother why camp just one tiny one all the time.

 

 

Secondly I understood and never took it as being criticizing  just as I pointed out last paragraph seems strange 3 powerful nations need to gank a little port lol seems silly and a waste of time unless your sending a message we are all dangerous and need to be eliminated to the point you ignore 2-3 way more powerful nations or could it be we suck and are easy pickings so you can level up faster at our expense ?  Makes one wonder why 3 powerful nations make us a priority all day long.

 

I accept it may be harder to be an underdog but some are going way beyond what should be happening..

 

One nation so small should hardly be the point of such effort to kill us on sight lol with as many ships as you can get into battle against 2 or 3 small ships.

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If the battle rules made things more fair then there would be no underdogs because everyone would have the near the same opportunities and the difference between nations would be negligible. 

 

Actually, I think the opposite is true.  Most of the time, strategic outcomes are dominated by player population.  And this also translates down to the battle level.  At best, you'll have a bell curve of population distribution where the big nations are hopefully evenly matched but that will trail off and you will have nations with smaller pops and probably a few that are severely under-pop'd.

 

In a game that never really "ends", it's critical that you address the population issue at a fairly fundamental level.  Alliances will help strategically.  But, you probably also need something at the battle level.  The new AI dogpiling mechanic sort of seems like a backhanded stab at this.

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@Dragonfire

As mentioned by Dharus, you choose a nation. You are not forced to play Sweden. It will have different challenges, as you mentioned. On the other hand. The chance that Swedish players will be less spread out will be better. As said you can buy outpost for 18k and it is not very hard to get that amount of money. A trader brig will give you around 4k. Besides that. In a Lynx you should be able to escape most battles.

Edited by Verhoeven

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I agree it is more challenging and I picked this nation so ill stick with it instead of jumping all around from nation to nation as there are some really nice players in this small group.

 

That said haven given it some thought and stepping back from the "They are picking on us mindset" I find being in fight after continuous fight my skills are getting better to the point I can now do runs on Snows, Brigs and Cerbs and do damage with a modified  Lynx and sustain remarkable little damage.

 

I tend to not run from a battle so i'll just get better in time but in saying that 4 cutters and 2 navy Brigs against 1 Lynx is still silly though why would any team initiate that battle or constantly seek it out , waste of time as reward is just about non existent for all involved developer and players included.

 

Intention is not to complain about this more the thought why would they do that and maybe a 1 port nation needs a bigger buffer zone in development ?

Edited by Dragonfire

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Actually, I think the opposite is true.  Most of the time, strategic outcomes are dominated by player population.  And this also translates down to the battle level.  At best, you'll have a bell curve of population distribution where the big nations are hopefully evenly matched but that will trail off and you will have nations with smaller pops and probably a few that are severely under-pop'd.

 

In a game that never really "ends", it's critical that you address the population issue at a fairly fundamental level.  Alliances will help strategically.  But, you probably also need something at the battle level.  The new AI dogpiling mechanic sort of seems like a backhanded stab at this.

 

Yes, but if in "fairness" the battle instance is equal to your own strength to make it "fair" then it doesn't matter that there are 100 players outside your instance, waiting in line sort of speak, for you to finish.  In PotBS the magic number was 6.  If you had the best six man group in the ocean, it didn't matter what the population was of each side.  I saw and participated in 6 man groups dominate the strategic map.  It never mattered if Britain had twice the population if they could never field a good 6 man group.

 

Now for NA with larger instances, you may well be right in that population size could effect the strategic element.  If a guild can field 25 players, then they have a good chance of defeating anyone else on the open waters.  Fielding 25 people can be more like herding cats however.  If the NPC AI is good, then I think the dogpiling mechanic could work as well but I think population will still be an issue because people > than AI.  In the end any developers trying to make populations equal might as well be called Sisyphus because they'll never find an end to the ever changing problem.  Though I think a better idea would be to allow multiple nations into a battle instance as long as they are allied somehow.

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If nation X has 100 players and Y has 30 and we assume one port (for simplicity), the first 25 Y to get into the battle with X may have a decent fight.

But now there are 5 Y players up against 75 X. If they are getting camped, they will essentially be shut down until the other battle ends. When that happens, there will be 5 different players shut down until the 100 that are camping them move on.

You're right that can't be completely avoided but there are many things you can do in an open pvp setting to mitigate the imbalance/shut down situation. The problem is I'm not sure how applicable those are to this game.

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