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Open world: Combat, Rules of Engagement, Damage, Bot combat AI discussions

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It happened to me twice or three times in a row after short-time sessions (less than 45 minutes). I guess bots sailed by during these 10 minutes and sunk my boat. Imagine when there'll be more players...

 

 

Logging off at sea is risky, was risky in real life.

Can you provide reasons why your ship should be safe at sea from weather, AI or players, if you choose to log off in sometimes hostile open waters (not in port). Time can be tuned though.

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5 minutes or so might be a better time. It'll still be dangerous and would stop people abusing it to avoid being caught, but 10 minutes is quite a long time when you convert it to the distance that a ship can currently cover and be able to find you from being completely out of sight. 5 minutes should still be plenty long enough so that you really aren't going to want to log off in hostile seas. I've not had the problem myself, but I've not really had to log off at sea too many times, and when I have I've made sure to find a safe spot to do it in, well hidden from sight.

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Logging off at sea is risky, was risky in real life.

Can you provide reasons why your ship should be safe at sea from weather, AI or players, if you choose to log off in sometimes hostile open waters (not in port). Time can be tuned though.

Yes, we all got a real life that sometimes force us to leave the computer.. and without any GPS it is not always easy to find a friendly port quickly.

(something i love, but it do make it harder to get out of the game in a safe way when needed)

We need a system where you press log out, the ship comes to a halt and then get a count down 2-3minuttes max. and then you leave the game and your ship is gone.

This way you know if you get attacked before you quite the game... and don't find out the hard way when you log in again.,

 

And with the current travel speeds it is rather hard to use is to get out of trouble...

Edited by thomas aagaard

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Logging off at sea is risky, was risky in real life.

Can you provide reasons why your ship should be safe at sea from weather, AI or players, if you choose to log off in sometimes hostile open waters (not in port). Time can be tuned though.

 

I don't see why it could not be very quick (1 min like capital teleport) if there are no ships in visual range.  Then we would at least have the option of just sailing out of an active area and logging off rather than to nearest neutral/friendly port (which could be 30min away more depending on wind and enemy activity).

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If you leave a battle instance under manual sails, when you enter a new instance the sails will still be manual and set the same. A minor issue, but it seems they should be reset to auto in the new instance.

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The bot's ability to kite upwind is ridiculous IMO.  It's one thing to be kited when your opponent is down wind from you, it's another to try and chase them upwind.  It just kills any carronades or chance to use doubles.  I feel like I have to do this silly dance where I just head down wind to run away from them and only after they start following me will they not endlessly tack upwind.  I'm just saying it's not very fun or real feeling.  I didn't do much PvE in sea trials, but man how I would rather fight more players now.  There's just not enough players on-line to do that atm right now.

 

Oh and the other AI thing is their ability to sail backwards in the wind and the speed at which they do it.  They literally can just keep backing up in the opposite direction against the wind, and I can be right next to them heading with the wind and I can't get to their stern.  I don't know if this is realistic or not, but it doesn't feel natural to me...

 

-----

 

Also, whenever I use grape to capture a ship, I get very little xp compared to doing direct damage.  I feel like reducing enemy crew should have somewhat comparable xp rates to doing direct damage.  I am fine with lower gold because you are getting a ship already, but I want more xp lol.

Edited by Booyaah

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On bot firing angles...

 

I would like to see the bots having the same angle limitations as we do in a given ship. I've seen in mentioned before and I have observed radically widened gun arcs on bots myself:

 

xjTDKgk.png

 

AXtKL62.png

 

It's not exactly scientifically accurate, but I believe it's fair to say that bots are enjoying turrets on their rides.

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The bot's ability to kite upwind is ridiculous IMO.  It's one thing to be kited when your opponent is down wind from you, it's another to try and chase them upwind.  It just kills any carronades or chance to use doubles.  I feel like I have to do this silly dance where I just head down wind to run away from them and only after they start following me will they not endlessly tack upwind.  I'm just saying it's not very fun or real feeling.  I didn't do much PvE in sea trials, but man how I would rather fight more players now.  There's just not enough players on-line to do that atm right now.

 

Oh and the other AI thing is their ability to sail backwards in the wind and the speed at which they do it.  They literally can just keep backing up in the opposite direction against the wind, and I can be right next to them heading with the wind and I can't get to their stern.  I don't know if this is realistic or not, but it doesn't feel natural to me...

 

-----

 

Also, whenever I use grape to capture a ship, I get very little xp compared to doing direct damage.  I feel like reducing enemy crew should have somewhat comparable xp rates to doing direct damage.  I am fine with lower gold because you are getting a ship already, but I want more xp lol.

 

Agreed 100%, the endless kiting of the AI once in close quarters is a real pain, they'll spin around like a top endlessly.

 

The only way to 'catch' them is having ships on both his port and starboard side, confusing the AI and forcing him to 'sit' against the wind. Usually the only way to capture them 

 

On bot firing angles...

 

I would like to see the bots having the same angle limitations as we do in a given ship. I've seen in mentioned before and I have observed radically widened gun arcs on bots myself:

 

xjTDKgk.png

 

AXtKL62.png

 

It's not exactly scientifically accurate, but I believe it's fair to say that bots are enjoying turrets on their rides.

 

Yeah I've noticed the extreme firing angles the AI are able to snap off shots from, a bit tiresome especially given the above (AI tacking headlong into the wind) 

 

Eating 1-2 carronade salvos when you as a player cannot bring your guns to bear as you turn turn turn really wears on your nerves

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That's basically my main sentiment is that it 'feels' like the bots get their own set of magical rules.  I witnessed this last night in brig vs brig and being totally out turned doing the exact same maneuver.  The fact that they can boxhaul and deadwind tack backwards fast enough to where I cannot out run them to get on their stern when I have sails full or wind going the opposite direction does not seem right.

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That's basically my main sentiment is that it 'feels' like the bots get their own set of magical rules.  I witnessed this last night in brig vs brig and being totally out turned doing the exact same maneuver.  The fact that they can boxhaul and deadwind tack backwards fast enough to where I cannot out run them to get on their stern when I have sails full or wind going the opposite direction does not seem right.

 

Agreed, and I would like to add it would be nice SoL AI use line formations like they really would instead of manuvering like they are frigates. 

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I noticed, that when on OS you tag, or get tagged by enemy fleet, and in range of that tag there is a second NPC fleet with few ships, something strange happens.

If the second fleet with few ships is in border range of a tag ring not all ships from the second fleet spawn in battle. It is normal? or bug?

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I also thought of something currently who ever undocks or leaves a battle is invisible to everyone but can see everyone else, should make it during the time they are invisible they cant see anyone also

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3.b grapeshot is still overpowered (it was better implemented in sea trials 1) also doubleshot is weak when raking

 

lets discuss this

why is it overpowered? and on what vessels?

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It is especially overpowered in one-on-one combat, pretty much rendering any other ammo choice useless. Right now it's extremely easy to kill as much as 40-50 crew just with shooting top deck. Take into account a situation where 2 players are playing a duel in equal enviroment. Player A loads grape, player B loads double. After the first pass player A is left with damaged hull, while player B is left with 40 crew less than player A. This means, that player B CANNOT go for a tack because he gets boarded with this crew difference. So he needs to run downwind and the battle is practically over. If player B wants to defend himself against this, he needs to respond with grape. This way the battle comes down to who can grape who faster and I doubt that is desirable gameplay.

 

The solution to this that I can think of is this: Make grape's effectiveness dependant on state of the planking of the broadside and make shooting top deck less effective. Also make raking with double a bit more effective because right now it kills barely any crew. Raking with grape seems perfect for me. Not as devastating as it was in Sea Trials, but still with perfectly aimed rolling broadside you can kill as much as 150 crew. Improving doubles raking characteristics and making grapes effectiveness against broadside dependant on state of planking would make doubles again the primary weapon of choice, while keeping grape as situational yet still highly devastating when used properly.

 

This is from Trincomalee perspective.

Edited by Laik

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what laik said. what he described was already the rule in sea trials 1, but it was much harder to kill crew.

 

what to add: with the current extreme ricochets its more sensible to use grape and dont bother which side (bow,stern,sides) the enemy is showing at what angle, you can easy kill a lot of crew .

 

also its degrades double shot when raking. right now having the wind and being in a raking position while having double shot loaded wont scare anybody, because you barely can kill the crew and you wont damage the hull, you can only hope that enemys ship doesnt have reinforced rudder to get an advantage in that situation.

 

this accounts mostly for frigates as i havent sailed any sol yet

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Player A loads grape, player B loads double. After the first pass player A is left with damaged hull, while player B is left with 40 crew less than player A. This means, that player B CANNOT go for a tack because he gets boarded with this crew difference.

I think that's a bit of an overstatement, or at least you are mistaken if you afraid to tack.

 

If you have some momentum you won't even hit 5 knots in stays. If you are downwind, then speed is your prerogative. And a downwind vessel will be hard-pressed to board you.

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with the current extreme ricochets its more sensible to use grape and dont bother which side (bow,stern,sides) the enemy is showing at what angle, you can easy kill a lot of crew .

 

also its degrades double shot when raking. right now having the wind and being in a raking position while having double shot loaded wont scare anybody, because you barely can kill the crew and you wont damage the hull, you can only hope that enemys ship doesnt have reinforced rudder to get an advantage in that situation.

 

Yep, totally agree.

 

We discussed all this before extensively and recently and the consensus was that grape was overpowered, but nothing was changed.

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We discussed all this before extensively and recently and the consensus was that grape was overpowered, but nothing was changed.

 

Everything was changed. Crew is no longer one monolith block, crew is located deck by deck, penetration is different depending on the width of planking, the shot passage within the hull determines the potential damage as well. Not sure what you mean by nothing was changed. 

 

Damage models 4.0 has bugs and untuned things that has to be tuned and fixed. this is the goal of the grape discussion and this topic in general.. 

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Exposure of deck crew may be somewhat exaggerated because ship models in game do not represent ships properly prepared for combat. The rails of ships would be lined with the crew's rolled hammocks, providing a fairly effective barrier against small projectiles. Of course, we don't know exactly the projectile sizes and penetration abilities for grape shot in game. 32pdr grapeshot could be 9x 3lb projectiles, and I doubt rolled canvas would stop those.

Later example, but principle is the same:

DSCN0744.JPG

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Everything was changed. Crew is no longer one monolith block, crew is located deck by deck, penetration is different depending on the width of planking, the shot passage within the hull determines the potential damage as well. Not sure what you mean by nothing was changed. 

 

Damage models 4.0 has bugs and untuned things that has to be tuned and fixed. this is the goal of the grape discussion and this topic in general.. 

I think N. Wolves was talking about discussions that took place after the implementation of the new crew hitboxes and damage model.

 

Grape is so effective currently because it seems to penetrate hulls effortlessly. Grape fired from 6-pdr and 4-pdr guns can de-crew brigs and snows by impacting the hull timbers, for instance. I don't know if this is realistic, but I suspect not. I recall reading that grapeshot tended to be dug out of hulls after a fight, having penetrated only a few inches into it.

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Maybe the penetration for grape just needs to be reduced a little. I understand that the crew is spread out but it does seem like a lot of crew can be killed by firing directly into the broadside. Sometimes 100+ in Con vs Con encounters.

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I think N. Wolves was talking about discussions that took place after the implementation of the new crew hitboxes and damage model.

 

Grape is so effective currently because it seems to penetrate hulls effortlessly. Grape fired from 6-pdr and 4-pdr guns can de-crew brigs and snows by impacting the hull timbers, for instance. I don't know if this is realistic, but I suspect not. I recall reading that grapeshot tended to be dug out of hulls after a fight, having penetrated only a few inches into it.

 

definitely its the bug. will be fixed next patch

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As part of the same issue would the developers please have another look at the killing power of the solid shot on the crew. You can destroy all the armour on an enemy ship but still only kill five or so of the crew. If the shot are penetrateing the hull they are creating a lethal cone of debris of far greater diameter then the original ball and I don't think this is being accounted for in the model.

And.....my 2c on the ricochet issue, the model looks pretty realistic to me at the moment. If anyone has found any source data for this ballistic problem please could they put up a link.

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Maybe the penetration for grape just needs to be reduced a little. I understand that the crew is spread out but it does seem like a lot of crew can be killed by firing directly into the broadside. Sometimes 100+ in Con vs Con encounters.

French test were made in the 1840's for grape shot.

I have put the results somewhere in the forum. Need to find them again.

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