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Open world: Combat, Rules of Engagement, Damage, Bot combat AI discussions

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Joe    93

Ok..I can't be the only one who thinks the NPC ships near starter areas are really...really tough. My first match I got hit by every round at 600 meters/yards, set on fire, and blew up.....I can see challenging AI but that close to starter areas? 2 and 3 on one with precision fire is going to punish a lot of new players. I suggest newbie areas have fewer multiple ship groups and toned down AI.

Before anyone chimes in with "you just want easy mode" so they can make this a pissing contest what I'm trying to do here is give feedback about a new game in alpha that might need tweaks we are testing remember?

Also, are my gunners drunk or did you hire the bomber AI gunners from warthunder...my shots have a pattern akin to a short barreled shotgun....meaning everywhere but on target past about 200 meters/yards. On my 4th ship I decided point blank is the only recourse to make any money and hits at all.

So on my first night I suggest toned down AI close to newbie areas

More single ship targets

And please fire the warthunder gunners or explain why they are so hideously bad. If it's because the crew will get better as you level that's fine but the AI in newbie areas aren't suffering from that issue and it's hard enough as it is.

Other than that tonight it was amazing to see what Game Labs has done in such a short time...wow this game is going to have huge upsides and lots of promise. I'm really humbled to be let into the sandbox to play with the other kids this early in what will be a great game. Thanks Game Labs...thank you for way more fun and excitement than you owed me for my money. I'm looking forward to being a part of this game.

Edited by Joe

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Sigurd    14

Apparently I have to go back to sea trials to relearn how to sail a Lynx. The AI Cerebus I was fighting yesterday could turn on a dime and keep me from raking it.

But then again... Sea Trials would probably not help being an older version?

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Hunter    80

accuracy isn't so bad if you wait for the gunners to finish aiming. plus remember you're firing smooth bore cannons, not modern rifled guns so the accuracy should be relatively poor. It feels pretty good to me, although the AI do seem to be rather good at aiming at the moment.

 

Edit: re joining battles already underway, I think there needs to be a minimum distance that you spawn away from the enemy. If you do it right you can suddenly appear within pistol shot directly upwind which seems a bit strange and somewhat broken.

Edited by Hunter

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Snoopy    1,150

The bots we have now are competent and sail much more in line with what a human would do - almost perfect in their imperfection and pleasant to fight against; the insane tacking prowess and clawing to the weather gauge they used to display in earlier OW is gone - maybe you can bring it back in 'elite' AI ships?

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I like the way of AI ships sailing and tacking....its hard to take them down but at least i had some expirience gained through the battles i've been,this is a real simulation with not stupid AIs w8ing to get sunk....and cause of this i believe modules or cannon upgrades ar very usefull to make your life easier

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Hra_N    16

I feel the AI trader ships without any cannons should surrender instead of just taking the beating, maybe not instanly but after a while.

Edited by Hra_N

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graphite    30

I have to agree with Joe … the first npc I encountered was a pirate, and was he brutal. From the time he got into range every volley he unloaded was a direct hit, despite my best attempts at ducking and weaving.  No ranging, just reload fire and score hits, he did so much damage in such a short time, that I had no choice but to run like a big girl lol.

 

Next encounter, I trap a brig in the mouth of a river estuary, he is in the shallows, and perfect, this will be an easy score I’m thinking … but no. When the battle begins, he is no longer trapped but out on the open ocean with three friendly’s to back him up, time to run like a big girl again. Aye Karumba.  

 

But I did manage to map the Spanish settlements along the south coast of the Dominican Republic and Haiti on my way to Port-au-Prince. But sadly still no booty and the server went down ;)

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Joe    93

There are no newbie areas

Ah.....ya see I figured you had newbie areas when you first spawn. Easier smaller fights for low level players to get the hang of it. Kind of a hatchery for new players to have some fun, get a good feeling for the game and get drawn in. Then as you traveled out the higher level, better trained, tougher opponents would spawn.

It's something to ponder....

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admin    28,134

Ah.....ya see I figured you had newbie areas when you first spawn. Easier smaller fights for low level players to get the hang of it. Kind of a hatchery for new players to have some fun, get a good feeling for the game and get drawn in. Then as you traveled out the higher level, better trained, tougher opponents would spawn.

It's something to ponder....

 

Naval Action is an Age of Sail experience. Bahamas sand bank (and couple of more ares) will be the place where only light ships can enter. (It is bugged now ) 

 

+ You can run away from almost any opponent in your basic ship, large level fleets ignore you; if you find a spot with lots of traders (usually in the enemy waters) and you will get lots of easy kills.  

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Sigurd    14

Ah.....ya see I figured you had newbie areas when you first spawn. Easier smaller fights for low level players to get the hang of it. Kind of a hatchery for new players to have some fun, get a good feeling for the game and get drawn in. Then as you traveled out the higher level, better trained, tougher opponents would spawn.

It's something to ponder....

Hehe... within the first minute of play, I was attacked by a NPC Swedish Snow.. luckily there were some other newbies around so the battle became 3x Lynx against a hostile and very good Snow.

 

Just imagine if this was the very first time I played Naval Action and not an old sob of a Santisima captain. (Got 450 gold and a repair kit from the encounter)

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Prater    5,325

Apparently I have to go back to sea trials to relearn how to sail a Lynx. The AI Cerebus I was fighting yesterday could turn on a dime and keep me from raking it.

But then again... Sea Trials would probably not help being an older version?

 

A Lynx going full speed cannot turn on a dime.  It was the same way in Sea Trials (down below in my sig, I have 225 battles in fore-and-aft craft, 50 in the Lynx).  A Square rigger is able to turn its masts so it can essentially turn on a dime if it is going low speed.  Problem with players is that they always want to go fast.  In a car you can't turn on a dime if you are going 100+ miles per hour.  You are essentially trying to do the same thing in the Lynx.

 

 

 

If you look in port at the turning stats on ships, the Lynx has the best turning ability according to the rudder.   Where square riggers have an advantage is in the masts.

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Sappo569    14

Ability to fire cannons while boarding, like the NPCs are doing, would be nice.

Have you tried using [ and ] to fire a broadside at 0 elevation?

 

 

Also chiming in that I have found the AI to be brutally accurate, 90% of their rounds are hits, unless you are running straight at them.

 

 

Ok..I can't be the only one who thinks the NPC ships near starter areas are really...really tough. My first match I got hit by every round at 600 meters/yards, set on fire, and blew up.....I can see challenging AI but that close to starter areas? 2 and 3 on one with precision fire is going to punish a lot of new players. I suggest newbie areas have fewer multiple ship groups and toned down AI.

Before anyone chimes in with "you just want easy mode" so they can make this a pissing contest what I'm trying to do here is give feedback about a new game in alpha that might need tweaks we are testing remember?

Also, are my gunners drunk or did you hire the bomber AI gunners from warthunder...my shots have a pattern akin to a short barreled shotgun....meaning everywhere but on target past about 200 meters/yards. On my 4th ship I decided point blank is the only recourse to make any money and hits at all.

So on my first night I suggest toned down AI close to newbie areas

More single ship targets

And please fire the warthunder gunners or explain why they are so hideously bad. If it's because the crew will get better as you level that's fine but the AI in newbie areas aren't suffering from that issue and it's hard enough as it is.

Other than that tonight it was amazing to see what Game Labs has done in such a short time...wow this game is going to have huge upsides and lots of promise. I'm really humbled to be let into the sandbox to play with the other kids this early in what will be a great game. Thanks Game Labs...thank you for way more fun and excitement than you owed me for my money. I'm looking forward to being a part of this game.

 

 

I've noticed the dispersion if you fire without waiting for the guns to 'settle in' is massive, your left most gun can and will fire wildly to the right, and vice versa for the others.

 

You need to hold your aim and wait for the gun dispersion cone to close in, all part of the patience required 

Edited by Sappo569

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Admaa    33

Not entirely sure if it is should be posted here as it is more so lack of a boundary that hopefully should be implimented. 


Now, I know this will sound weird, and you will also judge my sailing skills, 

Had an issue yesterday where a player would not leave the rear of my ship (not stern camping as such) they did not contact my ship at all but i could not turn around successfully to counter them, said opponent was roughly 5ft from my stern, and mirroring my every move. The timer went and the enemy behind me just dissapeared/excaped. I do not know if this is something that you already do wish to add or haven't done so, so excuse me if I seem demanding. At the moment however, there should be a minimum range to which you can run away from combat.

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PegasusUK    39

I was fighting two NPC privateers just off the coast of Fredericksted - Virgin Island and found quite suprisingly their aim extremely accurate, so accurate even at far distances I was enable to get close to any form of damage at all forcing me to limp out of battle.  a far contrast to AI ability in sea trials.

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Sappo569    14

The AI are able to fling 18pdr Carronade balls over 600 (using the range on top of the ships name)

 

In fact he was flinging them through my sails at 600+.... seems like that might need some tweaking!

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Nathaniel    275

Hello, i wanted to share my initial experiences. They are pretty much interconnected but feel more appropriate for this particular topic.

 

-Firstly, the general impression. I love the experience so far, and, what's is more important, i never expected to. I was very worried when you changed your initial approach (i.e. you earlier stated that PotBS travel speeds are generally TOO SLOW, but then introduced a map with hours of travelling time involved), but the more i play it there more i like it. It could change and wear out but at the moment it is absolutely great fun to just travel, trying not to get too far of the shore (love the lacking of an auto-map), enjoying the graphics, spy out sails on the horizont, hail them with excitement and either jump on them in a hunter's fury or begin to run quickly to your nearest port. I don't know for what amount of players the map is designed initially, but if it's thousands, not hundreds, i suppose, the idea will work.Maybe with some caveats, such as:
-Maybe it would be wise for these initial phases of testing limit the players to one specific area, say, the lesser antilles, and expand the scope with growing online numbers.
-That still leaves the extroardinary amount of travelling time, say, from the bahamas to jamaica, or from jamaica to the maine, or from martinique to cuba. My proposal would even to me sound heresy a few days before, but maybe it would make sense to make the entire islandless centre of the caribean (including jamaica) a quasi warp zone, where times flows 2 or even 3 times faster? Because the alternative (increasing travel speed overall) looks less and less attractive to me.
-I never expected how much excitement an open world and a free pvp mode (hope it stays like that!) can deliver to a well known game. It really turns the experience upside down in a great way. I expected to hate the NPC grind after the quick and fun Sea Trials battles, but god, how i like the spying of NPCs, trying to follow after them into open, more safe waters, and then constantly stay on whatch the whole fight, because at any place, at any time, reinforcments could arrive. Great! I really hope there will be no timer for joining instances and no restrictions for joining pve instances in the future.
-We desperately need a faction chat asap!
- There definetly need to be more NPCs of different ship classes in all waters, not only nation hubs. I like the fact that you have prey on ships and actively search for them, so definetly no need to go to PotBS like extremes, but there still should be more of them, a better geographical dispersal and more ship class variety. And even near nation hubs there shouldn't be only ships of one nation, but traders of all the nations and neutrals - that will also imrpove the dispersion of players from different nations, because now too many of them are concentrated near hubs.
- I like the unlimited timer in entering battles, since the risk of pvp at any time makes PvE extremely exciting, as i stated earlier. I would like the attack radius however (the point on when you can begin the 10 seconds timer to set up an instance) be about x2 times lower, to make OW catch and prey games more interesting.
- I generally like how the fleeing mechanics works right now. I also like that even as a solo PvPer bumping into a gank of three i can comfortable sail away in most situation. That leads to about 50% battles spending in fleeing or (more often than not) pointless catching, but that is just fine, IF, IF, the corner mechanics (encircling an enemy on the OW map to prevent him from fleeing on the instance) work correctly. I haven't gathered enough experience yet to comment on it in detail, we tried it once as a fleet of three ships on OW and it seemed to work, but most of the time enemies gank me, they usually all appear at the same direction. Maybe they don't bother, maybe something doesn't work yet, need to test more.
- At the moment organized ganker groups offer an enourmous advantage. That is not bad in itself, since, as i say for the first time, open pvp is a great excitement generator and you can flee in a lot of situations anywhere. The problemn however (and i speak as a player who loves grouping and ganking) will probably grow worse, since at the moment everyone has sort of the same ships, and that will change quickly. I also know that your planned excort mechanics and admirality orders should alleivate some of this. However, and especially in the short run, more should be probably done to help casual pvpers find each other. Maybe a menu with some kind of location of your fellow faction's captains currently in battle would help (i.e. Captain XYZ currently fighting 3 Frenchmen near Oranjenstad) or even (heresy, heresy) with a small GPS arrow to find them quickly. But as i say, maybe admiralty orders or something like that will alleivate the ganking problem anyway.
- You get no XP and gold if you surrender or get sunk. This is radically different from the approach in Sea Trials. This also heavily encourages fleeing rather than standing and fighting too strongly. I understand there are some exploits concerns here and you probably should not gain gold after getting sunk or surrendered, but you should get the XP for your damage surely.
Edited by Nathaniel

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Capt Aerobane    111

I have noticed an exploit players are using to farm. Basically it goes like this. Player sees a battle, joins, and sizes up the situation. If it is anything but a landslide victory in their side, they simply sprint away immediately. But here's the catch, they don't leave. They just run for as long as it takes for everyone else to quit out of boredom/anger, then they farm the AI. I caught a guy doing this and went afk escorting the AI merchant brig. Came back 20 mins later this guy was still running. I joined a battle before and saw him boarding a merchant brig miles away from the battle's start point, in retrospect that must have been how why he was so far away, he had ran that far.

 

Edit this is actually getting very frustrating. Ive been playing for hours and I have had 1 successful battle. People just run the instant they have anyone even close to their level. I started as France, could someone direct me to an area that is more suited to PVPers? All the people around Fort Royal seem quite wimpy.

 

Double Edit also noticing that the AI can fire carronades extreme distances, a tradersnow hit me with an 18 lb carronade at 800 meters.

Edited by Capt Aerobane

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TommyShelby    3,168

In general i find it hard to give proper feedback on the bigger vessels because of the AI using low caliber cannons. 

 

- I know it might be to make the game easier but purely for testing purposes i suggest that atleast some of AI ships start carrying different setup of guns. Maybe we could even see a carronade frigate or two! 

 

- - In frigate battles and frigate vs SoL battles it seems to me like fires are a bit too common. 

 

- - - Modules stacking need to be limited in some way or another.

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