Statistics - what do you want us to track

[Prater]

I guess I don't see how stats will corrupt the game.Ri

 

Right now, the lack of a proper leaderboard corrupts the game.  The game is damage based right now, so people suicide to try to get the most damage as quickly as possible, instead of working together to get the team win.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Prater

[Grim DeGrim]

In very broad sweeping generalization, I can see how public stats can impact game play:

-chinsy tactics to avoid a loss.

-disruption and blame games during and after fights.

-win at all costs, and skewed player activity to artificially boost stat specific items, versus furthering game play objectives.

-use of stats to "shame" other players.

-higher risk adverse as a record is kept.

I've seen all of these things. I recognize they are bad. So I'm against any form of public "competitive" stats. There is a large segment of the player base that will only get dissatisfaction from this. I get it.

However, there's two sides to every coin. There is a segment of the player base that will take this open world (SANDBOX) and tailor it to their desired game play. Competitive individuals will want benchmarks via stats, of which the private type will suffice.

Give it an opt in option.

Default is "do not track competitive stat".

Make it private.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Johny Reb]

I think the references to WoT stats is misplaced. Its obvious that many are against the statistics in those games. There is a difference here though. Its an Open World game. WoT and Warthunder are purely match making which creates a completely different dynamic when it comes to leader boards and stat padding. There is also one end game in WoT and that is clan wars which pushes people towards stats when recruiting because like it or not, believe it or not, stats do matter! You don't become a unicum in WoT with a 60% win rate unless you are good and contribute to the team if not carry it. So, try not to think of NA as a WoT game unless you are just referring to the match play side of NA. Also, concerns about sabotage and bad play will probably just about all but disappear as soon as there is a ship loss mechanic. The concern is more about the cowards that run when the first cannon ball strikes them.

 

Leaderboards - We are all motivated in different ways. Some of us want statistics to track our own progress and see how we fit in the group. To make leader boards less intrusive I suggest putting them on the website and not in the game. I believe by doing that, only the really good players will ever pay attention to it.

 

Public stats - I think a hybrid method of some public and some private stats should be implemented. What I don't want to see is those stats displayed over the boat on the horizon. Typing a persons name into a search field and viewing their stats is fine but on the OS only reputation of that player should give you reason to run or fight not the color of the star by his name. Although I understand the concern about stats, I don't really fear them that much. Most societies in the game will be Carebear societies and stats will be irrelevant to them. Only competitive pvp guilds will care about them and probably minimally. Only if societies are limited to a small number of players will stats become an issue imo. Tattered Flags will care more about ambition and the willingness and capability to learn than looking at a leader board.

 

Ill just comment on some of the suggestions so far. It should be broken up into pvp, econ, guild, exploration.

PvP

Win rate - I like this for 1v1 but not for group fights. Group fights in this game will rely a great deal on the admiral and not the individual player as well as group cohesion. All group fights will be highly organized affairs and not anything like the pug matches in WoT.

Average Damage Coefficient - I think the best way to do this is to calculate the DPM of the ship verse your actual damage caused and quantify it. This way the statistic doesn't favor the bigger ships.

Accuracy - This is a good private statistic that helps a person track their skill progression.

Captured/Destroyed - Good for leader boards as well as its a fun statistic for personal use.

Percentage of ships above your level - Gives the percentage of ships that were sunk by you that had a higher battle rating. There should probably be a limit to this one, like only for 1v1 or 6v6 or something, and not applied to fleet actions. This statistic hinders the guy that jumps schooners all day in his Trinc and then brags about it on the forums. Everyone will know its because he seal clubs.

Win rate as admiral - would be a great one to have. The most necessary of all the stats proposed so far. This way we arn't stuck being commanded by a horrible player.

Reputation - Depending on how this is quantified it sounds like a stat in the right direction.

Following Orders - I'm not sure if this will work well or not. It may be better to just wrap it up in the reputation value. I look forward to testing this tablet out later.

 

Econ

Reputation - Depending on how this is quantified I think it may be the only statistic that should be made publicly.

Tons transported - This would be the econ leader board stat or at least one of them. It gives the indication of how valuable to the nations economy a player is.

Profit Margin - Amount spent on production subtracted from amount of money earned through sold items.

A way to track how much of a resource was used making a particular item - This would be a personal stat to help econ players the ability to balance their production.

 

Exploration

Reputation - same as above

Miles explored - Not really sure how to differentiate  miles covered in exploration vs sailing between ports unless it is linked to how much of the map you have actually sailed over as opposed to simply miles sailed.

Unique Artifacts - Number discovered

Economic Resources - Number discovered

 

Society/Guilds - I think this is a tough one because we don't know what societies will look like and what they can do. If societies can be economic powers as has been suggested in other threads and if they build ships and have dockyards and such as has also been suggested than more things could be tracked and society reputation have more meaning. I hope we can revisit this topic when more info becomes available.

Number of members

Number of ports

Reputation - same as above.

Number of Alliances - if this mechanic exists. I hope it does

Number of ships built - if this mechanic exists. I hope it does.

Last on - Tells the last time, in days, that a member was logged on

 

 

It doesn't seem like the debate should be made over should we have stats or not but rather which ones should be public and which ones shouldn't. Like I said I would like a leader board on the website but the rest of the stats could remain private. It wouldn't bother me as long as I could track my own performance. The exception to this rule would be imo the win rate of admirals with the tablet. We absolutely need a way to choose our admiral in large pre planned fights like Port Battles or I guarantee you that I will ignore the tablet holder and listen to the competent leader instead. The community will do this to until the tablet just isn't used.

[Brigand]

The 'problem' with stats, even if private by default, is that they change the object/goal of the game.

Without stats, a players position on the ranking will be determined by 'soft' qualifiers, people can argue about what is even meaningful and what is not. In general though, winning the game as a group seems to prevail as best metric for success in those cases. The individual role of the participants in the group can be hotly debated.

 

If you provide stats, there is not debate; the stats are correct (negative impact on social interaction?). Stats being private by default makes no difference here. Those people who are interested in the 'benchmark' against others will share their stats and (third-party) leader boards will appear. Since the people who are interested in the leader boards are also typically interested in being 'best' stats will become important. What is more, you can play/manipulate the stats meta-game to boost your statistics and improve your position on the leader boards. Playing the game to win as a group becomes less important than maximizing the individual stats of each player. As a result, the overall gameplay typically changes, most commonly this change has a negative impact on the gameplay experience (even for those who pursue the perfect stats).

 

Just my two cents,

Brigand

[Grim DeGrim]

I do see your point and recognize your opinion. My thoughts is that there are many types of players that look at stats differently :

The goal is to win for my nation. Port Battles, group pvp, solo. That's it. While doing so, I get personal measures of how effective I am. A person that is driven to better themselves wants measures (anyone record how long their marathon run is, even if you're not in a race?).

The benefit is to France when I excel. Stats are part of my personal goals. The over-arching gameplay goals and objectives in open world remain the same:

Conquest.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Prater]

I agree with Johnny,

This is open world.

 

I'm not fighting on a team of random people, I'm fighting along with the people I want to associate with (TDA).  Who can I blame but myself?

 

This isn't random TDM mode.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Prater

[Brigand]

So, if I understand you correctly, you say that you would be happy if stats would only be supplied at clan/guild level? Thereby putting the focus on team win instead of individual win?

 

For me, this would be a workable compromise I guess.

 

~Brigand

[Arvenski]

@Grim: You think of doing your duty to France, and of using your stats to see how successful you are at that. Others, I fear, will think only of their own bragging rights ("e-peen" I believe is the correct term) in regards to stats.  

[Johny Reb]

The 'problem' with stats, even if private by default, is that they change the object/goal of the game.

Without stats, a players position on the ranking will be determined by 'soft' qualifiers, people can argue about what is even meaningful and what is not. In general though, winning the game as a group seems to prevail as best metric for success in those cases. The individual role of the participants in the group can be hotly debated.

 

If you provide stats, there is not debate; the stats are correct (negative impact on social interaction?). Stats being private by default makes no difference here. Those people who are interested in the 'benchmark' against others will share their stats and (third-party) leader boards will appear. Since the people who are interested in the leader boards are also typically interested in being 'best' stats will become important. What is more, you can play/manipulate the stats meta-game to boost your statistics and improve your position on the leader boards. Playing the game to win as a group becomes less important than maximizing the individual stats of each player. As a result, the overall gameplay typically changes, most commonly this change has a negative impact on the gameplay experience (even for those who pursue the perfect stats).

This is an extremely reasonable argument against stats and since we have seen in other games how stats have influenced the gameplay as well as social interaction and overall community culture, I think your arguments are valid but your concerns are not insurmountable. Leader boards existed in Potbs and they didn't create any of the problems you forsee. The guys at the top would have their little debates about seal clubbing and such but it never effected the overall culture. I may be wrong but I think its because the boards were on the webpage and not accessible in the game.

 

I would hate to see this game turn into a stat padding game

[Johny Reb]

@Grim: You think of doing your duty to France, and of using your stats to see how successful you are at that. Others, I fear, will think only of their own bragging rights ("e-peen" I believe is the correct term) in regards to stats.  

If someone wants to brag then fine. If they are good enough then let them brag. Who cares? The problem only arises when people start calling everyone else noobs and telling people to uninstall, or drown themselves or all the other vile behavior you see on WoT. But that won't happen in this game. Do you know why? Even amongst pugs, it is a team match that requires team coordination on a micro level and so anyone worth their salt will be on TS or have a hard time finding a good group. People that have to communicate directly with someone as opposed to through a chat window will behave much better. To not do so would be to get banned from TS. Also, you will get to know a lot of people in a game like this unlike WoT where you will not know anyone 90% of the time. Relationships aren't formed in Wot or warthunder so you have people acting like tools because their is no accountability.

[Grim DeGrim]

@Grim: You think of doing your duty to France, and of using your stats to see how successful you are at that. Others, I fear, will think only of their own bragging rights ("e-peen" I believe is the correct term) in regards to stats.

Correct. Many player types:

-those who can't stand stats

-those who like stats for personal betterment & measure

-those who live on stats for epeen (these same people will be heard with or without stats...)

There is no "one shoe fits all". Johny Reb makes an excellent point regarding this not being a TDM game. It is about conquest, be it in RVR, PVE, PVP, Economic, or otherwise.

Those fundamental objectives will guide all gameplay.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Arvenski]

If someone wants to brag then fine. If they are good enough then let them brag. Who cares? The problem only arises when people start calling everyone else noobs and telling people to uninstall, or drown themselves or all the other vile behavior you see on WoT. But that won't happen in this game. Do you know why? Even amongst pugs, it is a team match that requires team coordination on a micro level and so anyone worth their salt will be on TS or have a hard time finding a good group. People that have to communicate directly with someone as opposed to through a chat window will behave much better. To not do so would be to get banned from TS. Also, you will get to know a lot of people in a game like this unlike WoT where you will not know anyone 90% of the time. Relationships aren't formed in Wot or warthunder so you have people acting like tools because their is no accountability.

"But that won't happen in this game."  You've no way of knowing that. 

 

"Even amongst pugs, it is a team match that requires team coordination on a micro level and so anyone worth their salt will be on TS or have a hard time finding a good group." In clans, yes, I imagine a lot of people will be on TS. In random encounters in the open world, like those "fleet escort" missions the devs have talked about? No, that won't be the case. They'll be using text chat, and if it is possible for people to view each others' stats, inevitably there will be people in these random encounters who start calling each other noobs and so on and so forth because of their stats.

 

"Also, you will get to know a lot of people in a game like this unlike WoT where you will not know anyone 90% of the time." Right now, yeah, you see the same people a lot, because the community is small and the game is small. When the game is fully released and there are tons of people who play the game? No. You'll probably be seeing random, unknown strangers a lot of the time. 

 

[Prater]

 

You've no way of knowing that.

Why should that affect what is in the game?  That is for the toxic chat discussion.

[Grim DeGrim]

People doing professional Escort duty will have comms setup, and make available to merchants.

Johny Reb is correct in his assertions.

[Sir Darric Vandhelm]

If people don't want stats, they can ignore them.  How is it immersive breaking unless you are paying attention to it?

 

This is a game.  It isn't real life.  It isn't a full on sim either.

Lfm must have dps of 4k p/s.

Hows about, link achievement to x to join group

Mmo players never ignore stats.

[StuffinBeard]

I get the use of TS for games I use it a lot with friends...but nothing more immersion breaking that listening to some foul mouth "person" talking about non related garbage and taunting people in voice chat! If it is " required" to be in a clan/guild/fleet count me out...I'm sure there will be some good groups out there. In my experience it's really hard to find a good one with more than 10 people in it.

I can only hope it's not done like DayZ where I have to listen to people just because they are near to me!

Sorry I think this should have been in some other post like toxic chat?

[Grim DeGrim]

Who loves stats? Admin loves stats.

Talk is cheap...With current amount of content Naval Action already is in top 15 games on Steam by average hours played. Slighly below games like Civilization 5, Total War and Dragon Age.

And I should say that the player Guild Game Labs is very very proud of their results. Their position on the leader board amongst game Giants is impressive.

Cheek & tongue, but meant to show that people like stats because they portray Achievement.

PS - Sincerely to GL, Congrats...it is testimony to the gem of a game you are developing.

[FORBES]

I'm all for the idea of tracking stats as I come from World of Tanks over to here and the whole endgame is related to statistics.

 

HOWEVER, tracking stats and not allowing someone to reset or hide them can be a big problem when it comes to being judged against their peers. If the stats stuck to your name cannot be removed or hidden you will forever be judged based on those stats and some people damage them so much in the beginning before they learn or even know about them and realise their significance but decide to just mess around and have fun. The other issue is that if you can hide them or show them there could be a stigma around those who would rather hide them.

 

It's a very fine line to walk with stats, show too much and you will start to see some of the top 5-10% look down upon the rest of the player base, take a read around the WoT forums for a while to see how damaging stats have become. Most of the top clans/guilds will not even look at you unless you have certain numbers and much of the players trying to achieve these stats have even went so far as to 'reset' their entire account back to 0 games, lose all their progress just to try again or more commonly you'll see them reroll a brand new account just to have better stats. Personally I was well within the 5% and even there I felt lots of pressure within my circle to get better and better so much so that I got burned from it all and called time on the game.

 

All I'm getting at I guess is that with too much stats available, guilds/clans and players start to build and associate based on player statistics instead of dealing with the human being behind the keyboard. It can be very degrading to be told "No" based on what you did 2-3 years ago.

 

Hopefully some of this makes sense!!

 

Best regards

 

- FORBES

Edited March 24, 2015 by FORBES