Wind Scale, wind effect on a Ship

[Ned Loe]

Hello, 

 

lets talk about wind and how it should effect the ship. I personally do not enjoy current ship reaction to the wind and sea. I know it is very early stage of development and some parts of this are simply absent atm. That is why I think we need to address these important features before they slip away.  

 

I would like to see some "wind force" levels in this game and would like to experience the true power of the ocean.

 

Suggested chart: 

 

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html 

 

Each level of wind force should be displayed inside a small icon on the screen. This can warn players of what to possibly expect and plan sailing routes ahead to avoid heavy storms.

 

Following a scale we can now place a ship movement system in place.

 

(Picture is just an example)

 

 

Wind force 1-6 

1. Current ship movement (light left, right, up, down movement)

2-4 Increased left, right, up, down movement, ship's bow sinking deeper and rising higher.

5-6 More violent left, right, up, down movement, ship's bow sinking deeper and rising higher.

 

Wind force 7-12 

 

...at this point you should know what happens when ship is in rough seas. Adjust ship movement by increasing tilting with each wind force level.

 

 

Your ideas are welcome! 

[Ryan21]

I dont know if the admins are considering windforce just yet.  But I have been calling for wind force based ship speeds since I joined this forum.  At the current sea state and wind level there is no way I would be reaching hull speed in any of these ships, more like 5-7 knots with studdingsails set. 

[admin]

We are undecided on the wind force, because we believe that over the long term it is a feature that will be hated by players in the multiplayer environment.

(in the single player game they all become irrelevant because you don't have to synchronize time with others). 

 

In the multuplayer or co-op world it touches so many elements that could make player's life miserable. 

2 examples

 

1. Dutch is at war with Spain. France and England are at peace with Spain. You are a British privateer. 

 

 

You just robbed a Spanish post light frigate without a war near S. Domingo. You could not resist, because you bought a rumor in the tavern that a Spanish light frigate carries a package of diamonds from Cartagena to S Domingo. To be sure you tried to catch it near the port of destination and got lucky. 

Because Spain is not at war with anyone at this time you have a permanent KOS flag from Spain. People will hunt you.

You also got temporary KOS flags from France and Britain for engaging in illegal activities. Some nice white knights will hunt you.

 

Thus you cant go to Cuba or French ports and not to Port Royal you need to get to a safe neutral port (lets say Curacao - its Dutch and they actually love the fact that you sank a spanish ship). You can't go to Tortuga because you are a British privateer and pirates attack anything that moves. Even if you can enter Tortuga - you most likely  wont pass by patrols between Cuba, Domingo, and PortoRico. So your only safe option is Curacao. These diamonds have to stay in your hands. So Curacao it is. Plus you know good trading company that you clan has high reputation with - so they will give you a good price for your diamonds.

 

Now to the wind force

It's 12am you were hunting this frigate for two hours and tomorrow is your work day.  

Getting safely to Curacao will require optimistically 15-30 mins depending on wind changes, if nothing happens on the way. 

 

Imagine now that wind now drops, and sea surface now is calm and mirror like.

It will take now 5 hours to get to Curacao.

You can't log off because you are not in port and your ship is not safe.

You can't go back

You are ***ed, but not because of your actions, but because game artificially creates crap situation for everyone in this wind zone. 

 

2. Second situation.. It's an important port battle. 

You were preparing to it for a week, training, buying ships. You got 4 first rates, 2 second rates, multiple of 74s and 4th rates + some frigate scouts. You start the battle. Its 11pm not too early - not too late. 

Now when you were closing with the enemy wind died. 

 

And now 30 to 40 adults are stuck near computer screen, turning this from the tactical combat game into a waiting and persistence game. What if this wind does not come back for 2 days? Its not a SP game, those are real men around you. 

 

 

 

Overall we believe that wind force adds nothing to the game, it will only generate hate, randomly slowing you down for no reason. 

Unlike weather. Weather and various sea conditions will be implemented and some people had a chance to test them. 

[Ryan21]

We differ somewhat in this view, a ship in real life is entirely dependent on the varying wind force.  It is so integral to what sailing ships are, if the wind force stayed the same you wouldn't need to take in sail or set sail, or trim your yards, I am thinking more in a pitched match battle environment where a wind speed could be set, and the wind would stay near that speed except for a randomly generated gusts.  I'm understanding that becalming ships would be a problem, I think the wind like I said should stay at a certain force in certain areas + gusts, trade winds in certain areas should be steady at 15-20 knots but every once and awhile a randomly generated storm system should show up.  I dont think becalming is necesary, set regional norms for trade winds with slight gust variation and every once and awhile throw in a storm, you dont even need to put in ship damage due to weather, I would honestly be happy if there was any accurate representation of wind force at all!  Its so unbeleivably important, its another one of those big things that if not done will make things seem very motor boat ish, because the ships are able to reach there max speed in beaufort 3-4, I beleive you guys can do this without making it a headache for people.

 

It's important that it be implemented and affect ship speed in an accurate manner, so in a storm you will make almost zero way close hauled and be forced to run before it, and by doing so you could gain a bonus to your hull speed when running.  Also make it so that tacking in a storm is pretty much impossible so you are forced to ware ship. 

 

This adds huge depth to the game, it could be done in a non intrusive way, if the wind always stayed the same direction and same speed we would have giant sails attached to yards that couldn't turn, the ships were the most technologically advanced machine of their age, and they should be represented as such!

[maturin]

Exactly what Ryan said. ^

 

Wind force is vital. It's very troubling to hear otherwise. It creates so much necessary detail for gameplay, and prevents the repetitive, predictable encounters of POTBS.

 

But of course, in a game reality needs to be adjusted.

 

So we can just pretend that we are all lucky captains who never run into the doldrums. A minimum wind speed is an acceptable compromise, so that players aren't becalmed entirely. But I REALLY hope that on top of that minimum, we will see a full spectrum of windspeeds, from a breeze up to a gale.

 

As I have said several times before, windspeed is a very important factor, because it can turn a slow ship into a fast one. This in itself will mitigate phenomena such as 'failboats' and 'gankboats' from POTBS, where players know that no one will ever be able to catch them. If the weather suddenly makes their sloop or corvette an easy prize for a 74 gunner, they will think hard about that choice.

[Ned Loe]

This is true, but it can be fixed.

 

In your case we have;

 

a. players can not os log and still have travel to the nearest port no matter what wind speed it is.

b. you are suggesting winds to drop to 0 knots , so all ships will be stuck. (why drop to 0? make it minimal normal sail speed so all ships are still moving during wind force 1-5, make a timer with minimal count on such conditions). For example, make a code to randomly change wind force,  WF1 (1.00) , 2% - Wind force 1, timer is 1.00 minute, 2% chance to spawn this condition and make normal more comfortable conditions with higher spawn %.  Done! We have beautiful weather that can change and not make a big impact on game play.

 

I am more oriented on visual effects and how ship reacts to ocean. I simply do not want to see calm ocean all the time with some rare storms. We need a nice weather/wind system that will impact ship movement/sails. This will bring more customers because it is unique and no one else got the same feature. We will have players who will enjoy long journeys on the open sea, experiencing a true nature of the ocean.

[Ryan21]

We need to keep this idea fresh in the Admin's minds, this has to happen.  It is absolutely vital, I dont care if it is dumbed down from reality, it will need to be to work, but it HAS to be there.  Otherwise we are looking at another empire total war with better graphics and ship mechanics.

 

Set most trade wind speeds to 15-20 knots, random storm cycles, maybe have the westerlies down in the 40 lattitudes and lower blower a little harder than average.

 

We dont need complete becalming, but the tactical differences in a low to high wind scenario can be huge!  A turbelent sea makes for very interesting gunnery, but a light breeze means that you will have more time to think on your plan of action and manuever carefully!

 

This relationship between ship handling and wind is the soul and essence of the age of sail.  On a modern tanker you set the throttle, keep her on course and plow through the weather, 200 years ago, you sent men aloft to take in sail because you would be wrecked if you neglected it, it is literally the difference between a powered and non powered vessel.

[Ned Loe]

This is my weather engine suggestion:

 

 

Wind force 1 - Minimal knot speed , but not 0. Spawn chance %2, Condition timer 1 minute.

Wind force 2 - Ship speed +5%. Spawn chance %5, Condition timer 2 minutes.

Wind force 3 - Ship speed +7%. Spawn chance %7, Condition timer 3 minutes.

Wind force 4 - Ship speed +8%. Spawn chance %9, Condition timer 4 minutes.

Wind force 5 - Ship speed +9%. Spawn chance %10, Condition timer 4.5 minutes.

Wind force 6 - Ship speed +10%. Spawn chance %12, Condition timer 5 minutes.

 

Wind force 7 - Ship speed -2%. Spawn chance % 5, Condition timer 3 minutes.

Wind force 8 - Ship speed -5%. Spawn chance % 4.5, Condition timer 2.5 minutes.

Wind force 9 - Ship speed -7%. Spawn chance % 4, Condition timer 2 minutes.

Wind force 10 - Ship speed -8%. Spawn chance % 3.5, Condition timer 2 minutes.

Wind force 11 - Ship speed -9%. Spawn chance % 3, Condition timer 2 minutes.

Wind force 12 - Ship speed -10%. Spawn chance % 2, Condition timer 2 minutes.

 

 

This system (code) acts independently on each zone.

 

Feel free to edit % as it is only made to show you an example.

 

Also, if you like to use currents - it will add permanent +5% os speed in any weather condition.

[Ryan21]

Trade wind patterns should be atleast attempted, this will allow easy transatlantic crossings. 

[Johny Reb]

I am in agreement with the others entirely about this! The fact that wind speed changes weren't used in Potbs made the sailing a very "flat" feature and overly predictable. You (admin) spoke about the challenges of a lack of elevation elements with Age of Sail games compared to games like Tanks as an argument for your gunnery system. I now use that same argument to argue for dynamic wind!

 

Like the others said, there is no need to have the wind go calm on the OS. Calms or very low winds only need to be implemented in instances of wind shadows IMO.

 

Make historical wind patterns on the OS with minor variations in direction and variable wind speeds starting with Ryan's suggestions up to full fledged hurricanes as a very rare event.

[Ryan21]

This will take the game above and beyond anything before it, it is so completely necessary and inline with the vision that the creators have established.

[BrutishVulgarian]

I like the OP.      That chart has a lot of visual clues to the strength of the wind and I do love to sail without the UI.

[PIerrick de Badas]

I would hate beeing stuck in 0 wind area but i love the idea to get a normal wind for the map and some +wind bonus coming anytimes. It will not stuck anyone in front of his computer but it will help them sometimes randomly to finish earlier their travel. Having storm and++wind would really be a big bonus for the games as the others games have the same wind for all the map what is inacurate with reallity and make the games boring while in OS.

[Osseon]

Wait so the Admins are saying that the speed will be a set constant in every scenario and location?  Oh my gosh, no.  Even Sid Miers Pirate! Has variable wind.  Every sailing game I've ever played has had it.

[Baggywrinkle]

Overall we believe that wind force adds nothing to the game, it will only generate hate, randomly slowing you down for no reason.

Unlike weather. Weather and various sea conditions will be implemented and some people had a chance to test them.

Weather and sea state variations will be modelled...but not wind? How?! What is weather variation without wind variation? And sea state is driven by...wind!

Please please have another think about this. The English Channel is famous for its variable weather and wind patterns, conditions which have profoundly influenced vessel design and usage, and the Caribbean for trade winds and squalls.

The examples given were fair and exciting, but seem to miss the point. Don't have 0 wind, that's fine, we all understand. But give us 5kts and studdingsails (your art dept is still wrong ) and give those historically light and lofty vessels a reason to exist, and advantages to work. Likewise, winter gales in the Channel are thoroughly unpleasant, I've ridden out enough of them in traditinal sailing vessels, and surviving them was a major driver of some hull designs. Give us these too, and likewise give a reason to these vessels and give the players controlling them something to do!

Likewise with trade winds - sure they give a pretty steady 15-25kts from a pretty steady direction, and exploiting them is what square rig is really for, but there are frequent squalls of varying intensity that could be the breaking of a ship, a passage, or engagement.

I've just driven across the Atlantic, and it was boring. We got 3 days sailing in, which were great and not at all boring. Driving is boring, motor boats are boring. Please don't make a game, even in whatever 'Open Sea' equivalent mode you plan, of driving motor boats from A to B. Give us wind, let us use it, in all its fickleness and variety, and let us experience the frustrations and so the joys of the real world sailor.

Please

Baggy

[Johny Reb]

Trade wind patterns should be atleast attempted, this will allow easy transatlantic crossings. 

Without this the game will ruin the open ocean game play. If anyone can cross the ocean at any point with no penalty for doing so then shipping lanes will be to numerous for them to be meaningful.

 

The admin thinks it will only generate "hate", but I disagree. Sure, players will be frustrated when sailing against the wind but they also understand its a sailing game with fluctuating weather. Players in Potbs complain all the time about the wind but I've never heard one of them complain to portalus about taking it away. They understand its a part of the game and must be. And then their is the times in Potbs that you jump out on the OS planning to sail across the entire map and you find that the wind will be to your back the whole way to your destination.  You see, you need to have the ups and downs, the times where everything is as you want it and the times where its the opposite. Without challenge then the times of ease will lack the sense of fulfillment. You need the game to grab the emotions of the player. Not just good but bad emotions also. Especially in this game where every action takes place on a flat ocean.

[Thomas Blackwell]

Without this the game will ruin the open ocean game play. If anyone can cross the ocean at any point with no penalty for doing so then shipping lanes will be to numerous for them to be meaningful.

 

The admin thinks it will only generate "hate", but I disagree. Sure, players will be frustrated when sailing against the wind but they also understand its a sailing game with fluctuating weather. Players in Potbs complain all the time about the wind but I've never heard one of them complain to portalus about taking it away. They understand its a part of the game and must be. And then their is the times in Potbs that you jump out on the OS planning to sail across the entire map and you find that the wind will be to your back the whole way to your destination.  You see, you need to have the ups and downs, the times where everything is as you want it and the times where its the opposite. Without challenge then the times of ease will lack the sense of fulfillment. You need the game to grab the emotions of the player. Not just good but bad emotions also. Especially in this game where every action takes place on a flat ocean.

 

Perhaps one way to make both parties happy, is to have both static AND random wind. If there is a way to code static 'highways' of wind that only blows in two directions too and from surrounded by sea who's wind changes randomly like POTBS. This way, trade ships will be more inclined to use the coded routes to ship their cargo as it is a surefire way to get from one side of the map to the other. If the random wind is playing in their favour, they can risk it, or choose to fight it in the hopes of avoiding privateers and pirates scouring the trade routes. Consider the 'highways' as coded trade routes.

 

<-- enjoy my very crude picture

[Johny Reb]

I think that would be a reasonable set up Theodore

[Brigand]

I think that setting up 'static' wind zones is a bad idea, or at least, it is a bad combination with dynamic wind zones.

 

If you try to combine both into the same world, the dynamic wind zones are quickly pushed into the 'fake feature' (I hate the term) regions. Let's face it, why would you sail in a dynamic wind zone if you could get a 100% guaranteed speedy ocean crossing by using the static wind zones?

 

The trade winds in the real world are steady enough, whole economies have been build on them. So, why not implement the real thing instead of an artificial simplification? Trade winds give enough certainty about when to sail for which cost at good speeds, while not being static. Having trade winds blow slower at certain times of the year would create a nice need for strategic planning (when will you sail your fleet across the ocean, can you keep it hidden until the wind slows down, will reinforcements be able to react timely, can you expect a speedy escape into friendly waters, etc, etc.)

 

I can see the wish for eliminating total calms (although it is not necessarily my wish), but please model wind in a lot of varieties, including, but not limited to, trade winds, storms, gales a nice steady breeze and lots of other varieties.

 

Cheers,

Brigand

[Thomas Blackwell]

I think you and I Brigand are both suggesting the same thing only using different words. There's a few different angles on this I didn't make very clear in my first post. Storms, large waves, and changes in weather will effect the trade routes just like the sea surrounding them. The only difference is that the channels of wind will never double back on themselves or undergo a sudden and violent change. Instead they will always provide a decent wind in one general direction. It may shift a couple points, but it will never double back on itself and will always provide people a route across the map.

 

What is a trade wind in real life? A trade wind is, or rather was a seasonal blow that many sailors used to travel long distances. Sailors knew when the trade winds would start, and they knew generally where to pick the trades up from. In other words, they were as close to a static natural entity as we will find in the real world. We already know that Naval Action will show a date, but not the year. Admin told us this in the Q2D thread. The locations of these in-game trade winds could change depending on the season or date. When I say static, I mean the wind direction, not the location, however there should always be at least one wind going too, and one wind going from. I would also have winds along the coastline blowing either up, or down (+/- a few points) rather than out to sea.

 

I'm coming at this from a simplistic direction for the sake of trying to understand how these will be coded into the game. While trying to make the weather as realistic as possible, a game is still artificial no matter how good it is. Having random trade winds that no one knows where or when they will reappear is not going to be a positive feature, or a realistic one. Trade winds that are measurable and somewhat predictable will help keep the economy flowing in game. And remember, as you are sailing there isn't going to be a big sign saying 'trade winds 500 yards ahead' - you will need maps and charts that tell you where and when these trade winds will reappear.

 

The flocks of traders who use the winds will attract privateers and pirates. Naval Officers will also be drawn to the winds because of the traffic. Between the trade winds the wind is random. Sometimes it is blowing in the direction you want, other times it isn't. If traders wish to risk the more unpredictable winds, then they can and I'm sure a lot of them will. But that is up to them.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but to me, we seem to be hitting upon the same thing. 

[Johny Reb]

Thats what I thought you meant by your post Theodore. I think you two are on the same page for the most part.

[Brigand]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but to me, we seem to be hitting upon the same thing. 

 

I think we are beating the same drum indeed.

 

~Brigand

[Barberouge]

 

 

wind map.png <-- enjoy my very crude picture

 

http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/250hPa/winkel3

 

click 'earth' to change the parameters

[BrutishVulgarian]

http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/250hPa/winkel3

 

click 'earth' to change the parameters

Please, for the love of Crom, connect Naval Action, to that map!

 

Although that was jet stream, I think this is more trade windy.

 

http://earth.nullschool.net/

[Killick]

Just to respond to the Admin's argument that people will hate wind scale because you can only log off when in port: is that necessarily true? Why can't there be a system where people can log off in open sea, provided that they haven't been in visual contact with an enemy ship for a certain number of minutes? Of course people could 'misuse' this feature by temporarily logging off to evade enemies or bad weather conditions, but in practice, when you are mid-game, nobody wants to step out and do nothing for 30 minutes just to 'cheat'. I think such a system could work just fine without having to remove the effect of wind scale.